marian apparitions

[GodsGrace101]

What do you believe about Marian apparitions? Do you believe in them? And do you believe that they are Mary or are they a demon? And which ones do you accept?

I personally accept just two Our lady of Walsingham and Our Lady of Guadelupe

They can't be demonic.
A house divided against itself will fall.

I believe in the apparitions the Catholic church believes in because they study them, and the miracles, in depth before making a declaration. For instance, no declaration has been made for Medjugorie. (the former Yugoslavia).

This Maria woman there has been seeing Mary for over 30 years. Every day. I find this difficult to accept and also her family has benefited monitarily from all the tourists that go there.

I accept Fatima and Lourdes.
Thousands of miracles have been reported from Lourdes, but the CC has stated that over 600 over the miracles can be confirmed.

I don't really know about the others but will read through this thread.

 

[Albion]

I accept Fatima and Lourdes.
Thousands of miracles have been reported from Lourdes, but the CC has stated that over 600 over the miracles can be confirmed.

I believe that it is more like 73 that the RCC has confirmed, although its right to say that individual visitors to the shrine have claimed thousands of them. That alone should give any one pause about thinking these allege apparitions are genuine.

But if you look more closely, there is more to consider. In one of them, the child who claimed to have seen the woman (i.e. the Virgin) described her as wearing a short skirt with knee socks. The church, not surprisingly, changed that to the familiar attire that we see on every statue of Mary.

 

[Mark_Sam]

For instance, no declaration has been made for Medjugorie. (the former Yugoslavia).

If I understand correctly, the Medjugorje apparitions are still happening. So the Church cannot pass judgement until they stop. Then they can review all the apparitions and evaluate them as a whole. But I agree with you on the nature of this particular alleged apparition.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I believe that it is more like 73 that the RCC has confirmed, although its right to say that individual visitors to the shrine have claimed thousands of them. That alone should give any one pause about thinking these allege apparitions are genuine.

But if you look more closely, there is more to consider. In one of them, the child who claimed to have seen the woman (i.e. the Virgin) described her as wearing a short skirt with knee socks. The church, not surprisingly, changed that to the familiar attire that we see on every statue of Mary.

I'm not so familiar with each miracle as you are.
The apparitions are no longer happening in Fatima and Lourdes.

I do believe God can heal miraculously but will probably not do it many times since miracles would be happening all the time and that is not the world system we're in.

These apparitions changed person's lives.

 

[Albion]

These apparitions changed person's lives.

I expect that that is true. But all sorts of events perceived to be true--whether or not they are--have had that effect.

Mormons have had their lives changed because they think that God preserved the saints on their journey with Brigham Young to Utah. Christian Scientists have had their lives changed because they took the advice of Mary Baker Eddy that material is an illusion and that overcoming this illusion will bring health without doctors. And so it goes. None of this proves that the experience which changed lives was really what they thought it was.

 

[GodsGrace101]

I expect that that is true. But all sorts of events perceived to be true--whether or not they are--have had that effect.

Mormons have had their lives changed because they think that God preserved the saints on their journey with Brigham Young to Utah. Christian Scientists have had their lives changed because they took the advice of Mary Baker Eddy that material is an illusion and that overcoming this illusion will bring health without doctors. And so it goes. None of this proves that the experience which changed lives was really what they thought it was.

Yes, I agree with the above.
But isn't SEEING something different?
I mean, the person is really seeing an apparition or they're a little "whacky".
I don't know....I'm in no position to debate this.
I do know that the apparitions in Medjugorie are very suspect.

 

[Albion]

Yes, I agree with the above.
But isn't SEEING something different?[/quote
Maybe. Maybe not. After all, many people think they see things which, however, are not real.

[quote I mean, the person is really seeing an apparition or they're a little "whacky".[/quote
Or they are attention-getters or were hallucinating or mistook some natural phenomenon for a supernatural occurrence, or something else in this vein.

[quote
I do know that the apparitions in Medjugorie are very suspect.

--which I believe is the position of the Catholic Church, yet look at all the people who insist that they are real and even that some miracle occurred there beyond just the apparition itself.

 

[amariselle]

Here are some of the things "Our Lady of Fatima" and "Jesus" said to the children:

Our Lady: "Yes, I will take Jacinta and Francisco soon. But you are to stay here some time longer. Jesus wishes to make use of you to make Me known and loved. He wants to establish in the world devotion to My Immaculate Heart. To whoever embraces this devotion I promise salvation; these souls shall be dear to God, as flowers placed by Me to adorn His throne."

Our Lady: "No, My daughter. Do you suffer a great deal? Don't lose heart. I will never forsake you. My Immaculate Heart will be your refuge and the way that will lead you to God."

Our Lady: "I want you to come here on the 13th of next month, to continue reciting the Rosary every day in honor of Our Lady of the Rosary, in order to obtain peace in the world and the end of the war, because only She can help you."

Our Lady: "Continue to come here every month. In October, I will say who I am and what I want, and I will perform a miracle so that all might see in order to believe." "Sacrifice yourselves for sinners, and say often to Jesus, especially whenever you make a sacrifice: O Jesus, it is for love of Thee, for the conversion of sinners, and in reparation for the sins committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary."

Our Lady: "You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to My Immaculate Heart."

Our Lady: "To whomever embraces this devotion, I promise salvation." Throughout the years, Lucy, one of the three children to whom"

"Our Lady" appeared at Fatima in 1917, the children experienced several more such visitations. On December 10, 1925 "Our Lady" appeared with the "Child Jesus." Here is what "Jesus" said:

The Child Jesus: "Have compassion on the Heart of your Most Holy Mother, covered with thorns, with which ungrateful men pierce It at every moment, and there is no one to make an act of Reparation to remove them."

And here is what "the Most Holy Virgin" said: "Look My daughter, at My Heart, surrounded with thorns with which ungrateful men pierce Me at every moment by their blasphemies and ingratitude. You at least try to console Me and announce in My name that I promise to assist at the moment of death, with all the graces necessary for salvation, all those who, on the first Saturday of five consecutive months shall confess, receive Holy Communion, recite five decades of the Rosary, and keep Me company for fifteen minutes while meditating on the fifteen mysteries of the Rosary, with the intention of making Reparation to Me."

Source: The Fatima Center

Since we are warned in Scripture, by Jesus Himself, of great last days deception, that could, if possible, deceive even the "elect", it is very important that we "test" this apparition. Over the last 100 years countless people have been influenced by this appearance of "Our Lady", and have made pilgrimages to Fatima in her honour. This event from 1917 has had no small impact on the lives of thousands, and so it is not something that can simply be dismissed.

So, did "Our Lady" teach "another Gospel"? (Galatians 1:8-9) (2 Corinthians 11:1-4)

I firmly believe, given the above, that yes, she did. (2 Corinthians 11:14) She "promised salvation" to all those devoted to her "Immaculate Heart." The real Mary knew that she herself needed a Saviour (Luke 1:47) and she would have never said such things. She was humble and a devoted servant of the Lord. (Nor would the real Jesus have confirmed them).

* There is no one who needs to or even can "sacrifice themselves for sinners"
* There is no need to "make reparation for sins committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary". We are guilty before God, and He alone is our judge in that. (And He has chosen to give mercy and grace through Jesus Christ our Saviour).
*Mary does not possess "all the graces necessary for salvation", and so she cannot offer them in return for devotion to her "Immaculate Heart." Only God saves, specifically through the Sacrifice on the cross of His Son, Jesus Christ. That is the only Grace necessary for salvation.
*Jesus would not say there is no one to make "reparation" for sin. He alone has purged sin, once and for all.

This is why I cannot accept "Our Lady of Fatima" as being a true revelation from God.

 

[Albion]

...and what does devotion to (or sins against) Mary's Immaculate Heart even mean? Seriously.

 

[ripple the car]

They can't be demonic.
A house divided against itself will fall.

I believe in the apparitions the Catholic church believes in because they study them, and the miracles, in depth before making a declaration. For instance, no declaration has been made for Medjugorie. (the former Yugoslavia).

This Maria woman there has been seeing Mary for over 30 years. Every day. I find this difficult to accept and also her family has benefited monitarily from all the tourists that go there.

I accept Fatima and Lourdes.
Thousands of miracles have been reported from Lourdes, but the CC has stated that over 600 over the miracles can be confirmed.

I don't really know about the others but will read through this thread.

I agree about Medjugorje. Something about it feels manufactured and gimmicky. I could be dead wrong, but it's weird to see people go nuts about Medjugorje and have less interest in Lourdes, Fatima, Knock, or Zeitun.

 

[amariselle]

...and what does devotion to (or sins against) Mary's Immaculate Heart even mean? Seriously.

I know... My (Maternal) Catholic Grandparents had paintings like these in their bedroom:

 

[ripple the car]

I know... My (Maternal) Catholic Grandparents had paintings like these in their bedroom:

View attachment 230393 View attachment 230392

Yay!

 

[amariselle]

Yay!

Yay? I think you misunderstood why I shared them. It actually breaks my heart that my grandparents may have believed "Our Lady of Fatima's" promise of salvation for all those devoted to her "Immaculate Heart." (They also had a book on Fatima, which I read years ago).

Salvation is in Christ alone.

 

[Albion]

But Garcia, what do you understand to be the meaning of devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary or, for that matter, to the Sacred Heart of Jesus (as opposed simply to devotion to Mary or to Jesus)?

 

[ripple the car]

Yay? I think you misunderstood why I shared them. It actually breaks my heart that my grandparents may have believed "Our Lady of Fatima's" promise of salvation for all those devoted to her "Immaculate Heart." (They also had a book on Fatima, which I read years ago).

Salvation is in Christ alone.

Through Mary.

 

[ripple the car]

But Garcia, what do you understand to be the meaning of devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary or, for that matter, to the Sacred Heart of Jesus (as opposed simply to devotion to Mary or to Jesus)?

A bit. It is a devotion to the special love, interior life, holiness, mercy (Christ), and graces (Mary) of our Lord, and His Mother.

Mary is the first Christian, full of grace, and holy. Jesus is God.

 

[Albion]

Through Mary.

Salvation is possible only if Mary signs off on it first?

 

[amariselle]

In regard to Fatima, here is a video from a year ago (the 100 anniversary of Fatima):

Notice, the Pope says: "Mary is there, faithfully present, every time that you need to keep a candle lit in a foggy place.

If that is true, than Mary must be omnipresent.

Pope Francis also says this: "Mothers do not deceive, and in that moment, at the foot of the cross, none of us can say what was the cruelest passion: that of an innocent man who dies on the cross, or the agony of a mother who accompanies her son in the final moments of His life."

Now, first of all, no one can or should ever deny that Mary would have suffered terribly. I am not trying to diminish that. However, of course Jesus' suffering was greater, and He alone is the propitiation for our sin. Also, Jesus was not simply "an innocent man", He is also God.

As well, Pope Francis is incorrect if he thinks "mothers do not deceive". Human mothers can indeed do so.

The video ends with Pope Francis saying this: "I will go to Fatima on a pilgrimage, to entrust to the Virgin the temporal and eternal destinies of humanity."

I really should not need to explain the massive problems with that statement.

 

[amariselle]

Through Mary.

Where is that written in Scripture?

 

[Albion]

A bit. It is a devotion to the special love, interior life, holiness, mercy (Christ), and graces (Mary) of our Lord, and His Mother.

That sounds more like an explanation of the place of Mary in Catholic theology than an answer to the question about the meaning of the expression Immaculate Heart of Mary. It is a peculiar and vague description, you have to admit.