marian apparitions

Mountainmike

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Phil 1:21

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And what does your post have to do with the question or your stated answer "no" ?
The question was about marian apparitions, not apples!

The red text is a signature line. It automatically appears under all my posts.
 
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I like the idea of Marian apparitions. Who doesn't want visits from heaven? They were what attracted me to Catholicism in the first place. But the more I learned about Fatima, the more uneasy I became. And when faith in that one began to unravel, faith in all the Roman Catholic approved apparitions began to unravel (because they were all upheld by the same authority). Guadalupe was probably my favorite.
 
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Mountainmike

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I like the idea of Marian apparitions. Who doesn't want visits from heaven? They were what attracted me to Catholicism in the first place. But the more I learned about Fatima, the more uneasy I became. And when faith in that one began to unravel, faith in all the Roman Catholic approved apparitions began to unravel (because they were all upheld by the same authority). Guadalupe was probably my favorite.
What made you uneasy about Fatima
The authority on which the Vatican relies is in essence the local ordinary, so it does vary. I can understand uneasiness about some, like Medugorje but why Fatima?
 
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Mountainmike

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Mountainmike

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What do you believe about Marian apparitions? Do you believe in them? And do you believe that they are Mary or are they a demon? And which ones do you accept?

I personally accept just two Our lady of Walsingham and Our Lady of Guadelupe

I have studied them in depth.
And ( as a scientist) I am convinced by many of them.

Not just lourdes and fatima.
But also Kibeho, Betania, Akita, Zeitoun, Guadalupe are all worth studying. The message does not change.

By and large when our Lady appears it is because something nasty will happen if man does not change his ways....so something nasty does happen!

It is impossible to fake some of the phenomena.

Also related phenomena.
Panaghia Capouli/Meryem ana Evi fascinates me.

Many of the books are out of print and not only hard to get.
But hard to even discover some of them exist.
 
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Beloved2018

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What made you uneasy about Fatima
The authority on which the Vatican relies is in essence the local ordinary, so it does vary. I can understand uneasiness about some, like Medugorje but why Fatima?

There are a few, but I'd like to take them one by one if that's okay?

My first issue is this: 'Pray, Pray and make many sacrifices; for many souls go to hell because there is no one to pray and make sacrifices for them.

This statement is false in so many ways, even when looking at it from a catholic or mariological perspective. First, Christ offered the prayer and sacrifice that has redeemed us from hell. Secondly, even if we were to involve others, Mary is offering up continually, prayers for souls and her prayers, built on Christ are 100% efficacious, not to mention the prayers of the rest of heaven's company. Thirdly, all the masses in the world that have been offered up to this point on behalf of sinners. Fourthly, all the prayers and sacrifices made by individual Christians on behalf of others.

Christ's sacrifice is powerful enough to save anyone from hell. So the statement belies Christ's own sacrifice. It also ignores whatever prayers and sacrifices others have offered on behalf of sinners by saying, 'there is no one'.
 
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bbbbbbb

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There are a few, but I'd like to take them one by one if that's okay?

My first issue is this: 'Pray, Pray and make many sacrifices; for many souls go to hell because there is no one to pray and make sacrifices for them.

This statement is false in so many ways, even when looking at it from a catholic or mariological perspective. First, Christ offered the prayer and sacrifice that has redeemed us from hell. Secondly, even if we were to involve others, Mary is offering up continually, prayers for souls and her prayers, built on Christ are 100% efficacious, not to mention the prayers of the rest of heaven's company. Thirdly, all the masses in the world that have been offered up to this point on behalf of sinners. Fourthly, all the prayers and sacrifices made by individual Christians on behalf of others.

Christ's sacrifice is powerful enough to save anyone from hell. So the statement belies Christ's own sacrifice. It also ignores whatever prayers and sacrifices others have offered on behalf of sinners by saying, 'there is no one'.

You have hit the raw nerve of Catholic doctrine, which is that, apart from the cooperation of people, God cannot (or will not - that is unclear) save anyone. Even Jesus Christ cannot (or will not) save anyone apart from their cooperation.
 
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ChurchMilitant

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Our Lady of Kibeho in Africa talked about a great bloodshed that would come which was years before the Rwandan Genocide. Kibeho itself was attacked by the individuals who committed it. I also see it as bibical because Our Lady of Good Successes, to my knowledge, predicted a lot of the bad things that are happening in the current RCC at least 4 centuries ago, so to me, it is authentic.
 
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Mountainmike

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There is nothing new or radical in the theology
The messages are as old as Christianity, indeed before that into OT
And the themes are laced throughout early church fathers.

The themes
- of mortification - wearing hair shirts, sackcloth and ashes fasting and prayer and so on, go back to earliest teaching. John the baptist wore a camel hair shirt.
The children are asked to go no further in mortificatino and fasting, than the historic messages

- of prayer for others in the hope that they turn from sin to help heal Christs mystical body the church

- of willingly accepting the punishment for sins of others , as indeed Christ was the prime example and in the extreme "greater gift hath no man than to lay down his life for another

-Christ made salvation possible. He did not make it automatic.
We must pray for all to turn to him and to be converted.

If the theology worries you read "calls to the message of Fatima" by Lucia herself.
- I do not think you would have these worries had you read it.

If you want single verses try colossians 1:24 in which Paul combines many of these threads
24 Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

notice "lacking in christs afflictions"

The apparitions add the themes that
- Man his heading in the wrong direction and God is greatly offended

- That catastrophe awaits if man does not convert and turn from the path

- That our lady pleads with us - her spiritual children - (rev 12) to pray and offer sacrifice for the conversion and healling of the church, meanwhile she will do what she can to intercede for us


Sadly we have a listening problem

Lourdes did not avert the horrors of the paris commune, and ultimately the national penance with the sacre coeur

Fatima did not avert world war 2 , or indeed Russia coming to power - although once the valid consecration was made, Gorbachev was there within a year and soviet fell apartr.

Kibeho ran with the rivers of blood

Despite our Ladys attempt to reconcile moslem and Christian tensions in Egypt at Zeitoun, mass killing occur none the less

But at guadalupe the horror of Child sacrifices did reduce as Christianity replaced the paganism

Read Calls, or indeed books on other apparitions eg The meaning of Akita.
The message remains the same


There are a few, but I'd like to take them one by one if that's okay?

My first issue is this: 'Pray, Pray and make many sacrifices; for many souls go to hell because there is no one to pray and make sacrifices for them.

This statement is false in so many ways, even when looking at it from a catholic or mariological perspective. First, Christ offered the prayer and sacrifice that has redeemed us from hell. Secondly, even if we were to involve others, Mary is offering up continually, prayers for souls and her prayers, built on Christ are 100% efficacious, not to mention the prayers of the rest of heaven's company. Thirdly, all the masses in the world that have been offered up to this point on behalf of sinners. Fourthly, all the prayers and sacrifices made by individual Christians on behalf of others.

Christ's sacrifice is powerful enough to save anyone from hell. So the statement belies Christ's own sacrifice. It also ignores whatever prayers and sacrifices others have offered on behalf of sinners by saying, 'there is no one'.
 
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There is nothing new or radical in the theology
The messages are as old as Christianity, indeed before that into OT
And the themes are laced throughout early church fathers.

The themes
- of mortification - wearing hair shirts, sackcloth and ashes fasting and prayer and so on, go back to earliest teaching. John the baptist wore a camel hair shirt.
The children are asked to go no further in mortificatino and fasting, than the historic messages

- of prayer for others in the hope that they turn from sin to help heal Christs mystical body the church

- of willingly accepting the punishment for sins of others , as indeed Christ was the prime example and in the extreme "greater gift hath no man than to lay down his life for another

-Christ made salvation possible. He did not make it automatic.
We must pray for all to turn to him and to be converted.

If the theology worries you read "calls to the message of Fatima" by Lucia herself.
- I do not think you would have these worries had you read it.

If you want single verses try colossians 1:24 in which Paul combines many of these threads
24 Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

notice "lacking in christs afflictions"

The apparitions add the themes that
- Man his heading in the wrong direction and God is greatly offended

- That catastrophe awaits if man does not convert and turn from the path

- That our lady pleads with us - her spiritual children - (rev 12) to pray and offer sacrifice for the conversion and healling of the church, meanwhile she will do what she can to intercede for us


Sadly we have a listening problem

Lourdes did not avert the horrors of the paris commune, and ultimately the national penance with the sacre coeur

Fatima did not avert world war 2 , or indeed Russia coming to power - although once the valid consecration was made, Gorbachev was there within a year and soviet fell apartr.

Kibeho ran with the rivers of blood

Despite our Ladys attempt to reconcile moslem and Christian tensions in Egypt at Zeitoun, mass killing occur none the less

But at guadalupe the horror of Child sacrifices did reduce as Christianity replaced the paganism

Read Calls, or indeed books on other apparitions eg The meaning of Akita.
The message remains the same
I don't think this addresses anything I wrote. So I'm just going to leave the conversation here.
 
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