Marian apparitions...are they for real or a hoax?

[bbbbbbb]

Do you believe you are more righteous than Mary?

Do you believe scripture which tells us that the prayers of the righteous are powerful and effective?

Actually, truth be told, I have the imputed righteousness of God in me through His grace. I am, therefore, just as righteous as Jesus Christ, as is every other believer in Jesus Christ, Mary included.

 

[prodromos]

Actually, truth be told, I have the imputed righteousness of God in me through His grace. I am, therefore, just as righteous as Jesus Christ, as is every other believer in Jesus Christ, Mary included.

Ah, Luther's snow covered dung heap. Still smells just as bad.

 

[Albion]

If you thought that remark was awfully cute, it wasn't. Just tell us that you can save yourself and let it go at that.

 

[concretecamper]

Ah, Luther's snow covered dung heap. Still smells just as bad.

Cute

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by yogosans14

I payed the rosary one time in my life it felt so embrassing and awkward with all the hail Mary's I was repeating.
​

Originally Posted by prodromos

Since the "Hail Mary" is essentially two verses from Luke's Gospel, you found it embarrassing and awkward to repeat Scripture?
​

Originally Posted by yogosans14

No. It was embarrassing because I know it would have been more useful to pray directly to the Trinity.
​

Originally Posted by catholichomeschooler

Do you believe you are more righteous than Mary?

Do you believe scripture which tells us that the prayers of the righteous are powerful and effective?
​

Originally Posted by bbbbbbb

Actually, truth be told, I have the imputed righteousness of God in me through His grace. I am, therefore, just as righteous as Jesus Christ, as is every other believer in Jesus Christ, Mary included
​

Ah, Luther's snow covered dung heap.
Still smells just as bad.

Where did anyone mention Luther and what does he have to do with Marian apparitions? Just curious

[Rotherham] Ezekiel 4:
13 Then said Yahweh, "in like manner shall the sons of Israel eat their bread defiled among the nations whither I will drive them.
14 Then said I "Ah! My Lord Yahweh. Behold! my person hath not been defiled: neither of what hath died of itself nor of what hath been torn in pieces have I eaten from my youthful days even unto now, neither hath come into my mouth the flesh of a foul thing.
15 So then He said unto me "see, I have granted thee cows dung for mans dung,--and thou shalt prepare thy bread thereupon

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

.........The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover...........

.........Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive.
The Jews, for want of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen. .............................




.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Actually, truth be told, I have the imputed righteousness of God in me through His grace. I am, therefore, just as righteous as Jesus Christ, as is every other believer in Jesus Christ, Mary included.

Do you think that come the last judgement you will stand before God just as you are right now (or as you will be at the moment of your death, the two are essentially the same, right?) and God will declare you perfect and righteous and you will remain exactly as you are at that time? No change, no actual perfection, only the imputed righteousness of Christ? Is that how it worked for all the saints all through history, they stand before God unchanged internally, having been clothed with a garment of righteousness but not having been changed inside to actually be righteous?

 

[concretecamper]

Actually, truth be told, I have the imputed righteousness of God in me through His grace. I am, therefore, just as righteous as Jesus Christ, as is every other believer in Jesus Christ, Mary included.

People want Christ without the Cross. That is something the Church made clear this past week. Interior change from Him is needed.

 

[prodromos]

If you thought that remark was awfully cute, it wasn't. Just tell us that you can save yourself and let it go at that.

If bbbbbbb had the righteousness of Christ or even the saints, I would expect his prayers to be healing the sick and raising the dead. I have witnessed that kind of righteousness in some people and the impact of their prayers.

No one on this forum fits that description, least of all me.

 

[Defensor Christi]

It might be, but it's hard to argue against the point that you can't beat going straight to God himself.

Might be? Why are we commanded to pray for one another if it isnt effective?

In addition, it does no good to pray to people who aren't in heaven,

That is why the Church has a very elaborate cannonization process...

Most people doing the praying don't know this and actually think that the saint will and can help them. I hold responsible any church that encourages such devotions.

That is why proper catechesis is so important...

 

[MrMoe]

AMEN!! And why are you so sure you have it right?

My interpretation comes from using logic, reasoning, prayer to God to give me wisdom through the holy spirit to reveal the truth of the scriptures and not trying to read my own ideas into the scriptures.

When I showed you that the woman in Revelation 12 was Israel using scripture, I also showed you your belief that it was Mary and the church was logically flawed, all you could say was that you interpreted it differently. You never gave a reason.

Again...so what?

Is it a mortal sin to believe what he believed?

LOL...nice job finding SOMEONE who says what you believe the entire universal church believes...

You're putting words in my mouth. I never said this person believed what the entire church believes. I said I found someone who believed Mary was necessary for salvation to disprove your claim no one has said that.

LOL...again, quote pulling to dismiss context, love it.

You asked for links for context and I gave them to you. As a Catholic I would have assumed you would know and have read of the events and messages of Fatima so your constant requests for context are starting to seem insincere.
I have read what this apparition has said and what occurred and the quote isn't any less blasphemous in context.

P.S didnt we talk about WHAT the immaculate heart of Mary was? hmmmm....

The Immaculate Heart of Mary is a devotional name used to refer to the interior life of the Blessed Virgin Mary, her joys and sorrows, her virtues and hidden perfections, and, above all, her virginal love for God the Father, her maternal love for her son Jesus, and her compassionate love for all people

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Devotion To the Heart of Mary

We need the heart of Christ not of Mary. Did you realize this Fatima apparition called Jesus "the child Jesus"? Only one problem.. Jesus isn't a child anymore!

No, I expect you to view the entire context of the passage/chapter/book in light of history, context and peoples it was directed to. That's the problem protestants pull passages and stretch them to fit their personal interpretation of scripture...that is my point.

You asked for context and I gave it to you, now your asking for the entire passage/chapter/book in light of history, context and people. Are you going to ask me for it in the context of the history of the universe next?

I agree that context is very important but 1 Corinthians 11:14-15 is simply stating an ability and tactic of Satan.

I hope you're not seriously suggesting we need to put that verse in the context of history and culture to figure out if the devil is still the devil.

If you know the context of the verse in history and culture then please tell us so we can move the discussion forward instead of using it a diverging tactic.

The fact that you did not answer my question about the words spoken by the divination spirit in Acts 16:17 says a lot.

She said it,

Okay, show me where and when she said it. Give me documentation.

ask her when you get there...

I will. I will also ask her if she heard the millions of prayers directed to her.

I wouldnt doubt anyone's level of compassion...aren't we taught to forgive? To have compassion...

Yes we are, but that doesn't prove your claim.

perhaps YOU would have difficulty, that doesnt mean everyone would.

True, but again that still doesn't prove your claim.

You have the internet, look it up...do you expect me to spoonfeed you everything... LOL!!

The problem is I'll get two or more different answers. I've seen this several times here and other places online. I asked Rhamiel the same question and he said he doesn't pray to no canonized saints because they haven't been officially recognized by the church therefore it is not certain that if they are in heaven. I pointed out the obvious problem with this but he never replied.

So if Catholics can't agree on what they believe how do they expect non Catholics to be sure what they believe.

That isnt THE Rosary, that is a devotional chaplet...regardless, AGAIN...what IS the heart of Mary?

The Immaculate Heart of Mary is a devotional name used to refer to the interior life of the Blessed Virgin Mary, her joys and sorrows, her virtues and hidden perfections, and, above all, her virginal love for God the Father, her maternal love for her son Jesus, and her compassionate love for all people

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Devotion To the Heart of Mary

The immaculate heart is not Jesus. Jesus is our salvation.

 

[PaladinValer]

My interpretation comes from using logic, reasoning, prayer to God to give me wisdom through the holy spirit to reveal the truth of the scriptures and not trying to read my own ideas into the scriptures.

Except it wasn't used later...

When I showed you that the woman in Revelation 12 was Israel using scripture, I also showed you your belief that it was Mary and the church was logically flawed, all you could say was that you interpreted it differently. You never gave a reason.

Not giving a reason does not logically mean they cannot or that there isn't.

We need the heart of Christ not of Mary. Did you realize this Fatima apparition called Jesus "the child Jesus"? Only one problem.. Jesus isn't a child anymore!

False. A child is also, by definition, the offspring of someone. Adulthood does not negate the fact that we are still the children of others, even if we've moved beyond the age of 11.

 

[MrMoe]

Except it wasn't used later...

okay, show me where.

Not giving a reason does not logically mean they cannot or that there isn't.

Yep already knew that. Why did you assume that is what I believed?

False. A child is also, by definition, the offspring of someone.

I never said child didn't mean offspring of someone. I said he was no longer a child, meaning he wasn't a little boy anymore.

"By 1925 Lucia, who was now 18, had become a postulant with the Sisters of St. Dorothy at Pontevedra in Spain, and on Thursday 10 December, the Blessed Virgin, accompanied by the Child Jesus on a little cloud,"

Mary's words at Fatima

"The first being, a vision of Mary, Joseph, and Jesus as a young child"

Fatima - Historic Miraculous Event

Adulthood does not negate the fact that we are still the children of others, even if we've moved beyond the age of 11.

He's the son of God, he's the son of Mary, but who else's child is he? He's not my child, he's my saviour.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 1 Timothy 2:5

 

[PaladinValer]

okay, show me where.

My post did.

Yep already knew that. Why did you assume that is what I believed?

Because it is the content of your argument.

I never said child didn't mean offspring of someone. I said he was no longer a child, meaning he wasn't a little boy anymore.

Your argument says he wasn't a child based on a specific definition. The problem is that it fails against another.

"By 1925 Lucia, who was now 18, had become a postulant with the Sisters of St. Dorothy at Pontevedra in Spain, and on Thursday 10 December, the Blessed Virgin, accompanied by the Child Jesus on a little cloud,"

God's theophanies have been in many shapes and forms. He can appear in however He pleases. Furthermore, if He wishes to appear as Himself as He was a child, that's His prerogative. Who are we to limit God like this?

He's the son of God, he's the son of Mary, but who else's child is he? He's not my child, he's my saviour.

Your argument misses the point.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 1 Timothy 2:5

See the above. The point of the verse is being missed and is being misused.

Don't claim logic when logic isn't used in your own posts.

 

[Rhamiel]

Moe, as for Revelation 12, we can talk about this a bit but you will have to bare with me, ok?

what does the Red Dragon represent?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Do you think that come the last judgement you will stand before God just as you are right now (or as you will be at the moment of your death, the two are essentially the same, right?) and God will declare you perfect and righteous and you will remain exactly as you are at that time? No change, no actual perfection, only the imputed righteousness of Christ? Is that how it worked for all the saints all through history, they stand before God unchanged internally, having been clothed with a garment of righteousness but not having been changed inside to actually be righteous?

Yes to all of your questions.

 

[bbbbbbb]

People want Christ without the Cross. That is something the Church made clear this past week. Interior change from Him is needed.

That is precisely what the new birth is all about and, with it, the imputed righteousness of Christ. You cannot separate the two.

 

[bbbbbbb]

If bbbbbbb had the righteousness of Christ or even the saints, I would expect his prayers to be healing the sick and raising the dead. I have witnessed that kind of righteousness in some people and the impact of their prayers.

No one on this forum fits that description, least of all me.

I praise God that he has answered my prayers and has healed an individual with fibromyalgia, which is a horrendous, incurable disease. God healed him, not because my prayers are of the slightest value, but because of His grace in imputing the righteousness of Christ in me. I will not go further regarding answered prayers from God, but what you meant to mock me, is, in fact, reality.

 

[MrMoe]

My post did.


Because it is the content of your argument.

Did it occur to you the reason I brought it up again was to coax a better answer from him. In your mind it seems that me saying "you never gave a reason" somehow equates to me saying "you cannot give me a reason or you don't have a reason".

Your argument says he wasn't a child based on a specific definition. The problem is that it fails against another.

My definition was specifically meaning little boy which is the same way it is being used in the quote I gave which is specifically in reference to Jesus being a little boy. The fact that it fails against another definition is irrelevant since it is not the one being used.

God's theophanies have been in many shapes and forms. He can appear in however He pleases. Furthermore, if He wishes to appear as Himself as He was a child, that's His prerogative. Who are we to limit God like this?

We shouldn't limit God but that doesn't mean because God can do something, that he has done that or would do that.

Your argument misses the point.

My question was not related to the point being made. You made a claim, I'm asking you a question regarding that claim.

See the above. The point of the verse is being missed

I understand the point of the verse. I was using to show that Jesus is no longer a child and that he is not my son but my saviour.

and is being misused.

see above

Don't claim logic when logic isn't used in your own posts.

Please use it yourself before accusing someone of not using it.

Moe, as for Revelation 12, we can talk about this a bit but you will have to bare with me, ok?

what does the Red Dragon represent?

It represents satan.

 

[Rhamiel]

It represents satan.

chapter 12 also talks about the Child

what does the Child represent?

 

[PaladinValer]

Did it occur to you the reason I brought it up again was to coax a better answer from him. In your mind it seems that me saying "you never gave a reason" somehow equates to me saying "you cannot give me a reason or you don't have a reason".

I'm not the topic. Nor are you. The content of the post, not you, was what I disagree with, so is it possible to differentiate between persons and posts?

When individuals begin to address persons, it means their arguments are poor or they need to stop posting.

And speaking of "reading minds", pot kettle black.

My definition was specifically meaning little boy which is the same way it is being used in the quote I gave which is specifically in reference to Jesus being a little boy. The fact that it fails against another definition is irrelevant since it is not the one being used.

So sure? I'd argue false premise.

We shouldn't limit God but that doesn't mean because God can do something, that he has done that or would do that.

Pot kettle black.

My question was not related to the point being made. You made a claim, I'm asking you a question regarding that claim.

It isn't mine that is the subject but the poster's-in-question.

I understand the point of the verse. I was using to show that Jesus is no longer a child and that he is not my son but my saviour.

Jesus is forever a child under a different use of the term, which is the same no matter how He may or may not choose to manifest. Furthermore, suggesting as if the vision saw signifies that He is everyone's son and not a savior is, honestly, irrelevant.

see above

Other way around.

Please use it yourself before accusing someone of not using it.

Proof of having a position so weak and pathetic it must require addressing the opponent to look valid. Disgraceful.