Marian apparitions...are they for real or a hoax?

MKJ said:

No - what I meant is that the Catholic Church teaches that it is just fine to pray to any dead person you want to that you think is likely to be in Heaven.

Click to expand...

OK. I thought I covered that in my remarks.

MKJ said:

Hmm. I don't find myself at all skeptical of the idea that Satan could appear as Mary to deceive people. In fact, I think it is entirely possible for him to appear in such a way as to make someone think he is Christ or the Holy Spirit.

Click to expand...

I'll admit, I may have overstepped the bounds, there. At least regarding Mary. I'd be very suspicious of any claim that Christophanies are Satanic, though. Pure instinct, no real argument.

Seems to me that if Satan can, in your opinions, appear as Mary or as Jesus Christ to deceive people what assurance do you have that the bible isn't the product of such deceptions?

GratiaCorpusChristi said:

I'll admit, I may have overstepped the bounds, there. At least regarding Mary. I'd be very suspicious of any claim that Christophanies are Satanic, though. Pure instinct, no real argument.

Click to expand...

ok

I understand this

Jesus and Mary are holy
Jesus by His nature, Mary by the grace of God
and you, out of reverence for them, do not think that God would allow Satan to mock them by assuming their appearance

I understand this assumption, but I do not necessarily agree with it

also, I think it opens up people too much for false visions

yogosans14 said:

No...pray Is talking to God...its called a relationship

Click to expand...

I personally find it impossible to have a relationship with a dead person, even if I am told that the person is alive in heaven. To believe that this person is omnipresent and able to hear all of the requests for prayer addressed to him or her all over the earth and is omniscient and able to simultaneously hear multitudes of prayers being offered up at the same time to him or her smacks of polytheism with God being like Jupiter and the saints serving as demigods in the pantheon of heaven.

bbbbbbb said:

I personally find it impossible to have a relationship with a dead person, even if I am told that the person is alive in heaven. To believe that this person is omnipresent and able to hear all of the requests for prayer addressed to him or her all over the earth and is omniscient and able to simultaneously hear multitudes of prayers being offered up at the same time to him or her smacks of polytheism with God being like Jupiter and the saints serving as demigods in the pantheon of heaven.

Click to expand...

Christ isn't dead in any sense, but is totally bodily alive in heaven. Do you have a problem having a relationship with him?

And be honest- I think sometimes it can be hard. But if Mary is alive and if she can hear and intercede for us, I don't see why it would be harder to have a relationship with her than it would with Christ.

Your polytheism argument is better.

bbbbbbb said:

I personally find it impossible to have a relationship with a dead person, even if I am told that the person is alive in heaven. To believe that this person is omnipresent and able to hear all of the requests for prayer addressed to him or her all over the earth and is omniscient and able to simultaneously hear multitudes of prayers being offered up at the same time to him or her smacks of polytheism with God being like Jupiter and the saints serving as demigods in the pantheon of heaven.

Click to expand...

All miracles performed by the saints are done through God. Otherwise what of Peter and Paul healing people of illnesses, raising people from the dead and casting out demons? Doesn't your argument equally apply in these cases where men do things which are only possible for God to do?

If the saints can hear multiple simultaneous requests it is only because God is pleased to allow it.

yogosans14 said:

It's more of the fact that she appears and asks people to do devotions to her like the Rosary can make one suspicious...

Click to expand...

The Rosary is about Jesus; do you know the mysteries of the rosary? Let me show you:

1. Joyful Mystery of the Rosary
   • The Annunciation of the Lord to Mary
   • The Visitation of Mary to Elizabeth
   • The Nativity of our Lord Jesus Christ
   • The Presentation of our Lord
   • Finding Jesus in the Temple at age 12
2. Sorrowful Mystery of the Rosary
   • The Agony of Jesus in the Garden
   • The Scourging at the Pillar
   • Jesus is Crowned with Thorns
   • Jesus Carried the Cross
   • The Crucifixion of our Lord
3. Glorious Mystery of the Rosary
   • The Resurrection of Jesus Christ
   • The Ascension of Jesus to Heaven
   • The Descent of the Holy Ghost
   • The Assumption of Mary into Heaven
   • Mary is Crowned as Queen of Heaven and Earth
4. Luminous Mystery of the Rosary
   • The Baptism in the Jordan
   • The Wedding at Cana
   • The Proclamation of the Kingdom
   • The Transfiguration
   • The Institution of the Eucharist

MoreCoffee said:

Well, if belief isn't enough and truth is all that matters then christianity is shot. After all, the foundation premise of Christianity is believing in things we do not and cannot see. It's a faith-foundation religion.

Click to expand...

Yes, in 1 Corinthians 15:17 Paul writes: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
An atheist can believe there is no God and when he dies that's it, but their beliefs don't make God, heaven and hell any less real. What we believe in is in vain if it's not founded on truth.

I disagree with you that faith isn't enough. Luke 17:6, Galatians 3:6, Ephesians 2:8

Defensor Christi said:

\Nothing wrong with following traditions...

Click to expand...

Unless it contradicts scripture or claiming it came from God when it didn't.

no one said devotion to Our Lady was necessary for salvation...suprise indeed

Click to expand...

At least one person has. Bishop Alphonsus De Liguori a canonized saint wrote in his book The Glories of Mary:

"The Way of Salvation is open to none otherwise than through Mary, our salvation is in the hands of Mary...He who is protected by Mary will be saved, he who is not will be lost."

Surprise.

Which apparition are you talking about?

Click to expand...

Fatima. But I might as well be talking about all of them because that's all these apparitions focus on is devotion to Mary. Jesus is just an afterthought.

The real Mary of the bible would never have made herself the focus of adoration. She would have pointed to her son Jesus the saviour of mankind.

I am never impressed by verses out of context...

Click to expand...

okay here's the context.

Matt 15:1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

And how is that being done? How does one worship Jesus in vain?

Click to expand...

By following the traditions of men, Matt 15:9. Not doing the will of God, Matt 7:21

On the contrary...any thing/person/object/apparition that directs worship to the Lord God seems very counter-productive to His enemy...

Click to expand...

Again you're making another assumption. satan has been around many thousands of years than you have and is many times more knowledgeable than you and I. He would not do something unless it benefited him and he would not make his deception obvious.

By saying 'I don't think the enemy would do that' you're leaving yourself open to possible deception.

The bible clearly states satan can transform himself into an angel of light and that he has servants that can transform into ministers of righteousness. 2 Corinthians 11:14-15

I gave you a link to help answer your questions...

Mary as co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix, Advocatrix

Hail Mary, Conceived Without Sin | Catholic Answers

Scripture Catholic - THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY

Let me know if you need more...

Click to expand...

Thanks but I read and heard these arguments many times before. there is nothing new here I haven't heard before.

Also I noticed you didn't answer my question. How do you know Mary had compassion for all people?

I dont have to worry...not one bit, I am a devout member of the Church Christ founded...thanks though!!

Click to expand...

By church, what do you mean? Because there are at least three different meanings to the word and Catholics have a bad habit of using these definitions interchangeably.

I dont get offended...I come to these forums to help clear up long held misconceptions such as this...thanks though!!

Click to expand...

Well then clear it up. So far you haven't said anything to refute my claim.

Do I ask their intercession? No...but I do pray for the repose of their eternal souls.

Click to expand...

Why don't you ask for their intercession?

I rely upon the Church (through the cannonization process) to tell me which Saints are in the Lord's presence...

Click to expand...

Again you seem to have changed the meaning of the word church. Define what you mean by church here.

I know because the Catholic Church possesses the fullness of the truth...

Click to expand...

I doubt that. The more I read about what the Catholic church teaches, it's doctrines and dogmas. The more I read about the history of the Catholic church and the more I hear of testimonies of former Catholic nuns and priest who have come to know Jesus the more I'm convinced The Roman Catholic church is not the church Jesus set up.

Rhamiel said:

the "I call them like I see them" reeks of how Atheists argue, this appeal to common sense while denigrating religious belief
"I see no difference between some shaman talking to spirits in the woods and Moses going up on a mountain to talk to God"
"I see no difference between the angel Gabriel bringing an announcement to Mary then in Greek myths were Hermes was the messenger of the gods"
even before the birth of Christ we can look among the pagan mythologies to find "messianic" type figures.
this does not negate the truth of the Gospels

Click to expand...

You're using atheist arguments which are said from an viewpoint of unbelief to mine which is from a viewpoint of belief. These statements are said to suggest Christianity came from paganism. That's not what I'm arguing. I'm saying how is a spiritual medium communicating with the dead bad but a Christian communicating with the dead okay?
You're misrepresenting my argument with a strawman.

as for your questions, no, I do not pray to people who have passed on who have not been recognized as saints because I do not know if they are in heaven.

Click to expand...

Hang on a second, to become a recognized saint one of the criteria is to have two miracles attributed to them, that would mean someone would have had to have prayed to them before they were confirmed they were in heaven.

MrMoe said:

Yes, in 1 Corinthians 15:17 Paul writes: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
An atheist can believe there is no God and when he dies that's it, but their beliefs don't make God, heaven and hell any less real. What we believe in is in vain if it's not founded on truth.

I disagree with you that faith isn't enough. Luke 17:6, Galatians 3:6, Ephesians 2:8

Click to expand...

But aren't you the one who wrote:

MoreCoffee said:

But aren't you the one who wrote:

I doesn't matter what we believe, what matters is the truth. Saying "I do not believe" or "I do not feel" are based on emotion, and emotions can blind us. Jeremiah17:9
​

-- MrMoe in post #45
​

Click to expand...

MrMoe said:

Yes "I do not believe" and "I do not feel" as they were used in the posts in this thread were emotion based statements with no foundation in truth.

It's like when someone saying "I don't believe a loving God would let anyone go to hell." it's a belief based purely on emotion.

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it. Jeremiah 17:9

He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered. Proverbs 28:26



​

Click to expand...

Doesn't all that mean that faith alone is not enough?

mrmoe said:

Unless it contradicts scripture or claiming it came from God when it didn't.

Click to expand...

YOUR interpretation of scripture you mean...

mrmoe said:

At least one person has. Bishop Alphonsus De Liguori a canonized saint wrote in his book The Glories of Mary:

"The Way of Salvation is open to none otherwise than through Mary, our salvation is in the hands of Mary...He who is protected by Mary will be saved, he who is not will be lost."

Surprise.

Click to expand...

I would be interested in seeing that in context...but, even IF he did say that, his opinion isnt binding upon the Church nor is it in line with the Church...suprise AGAIN!!

mrmoe said:

Fatima. But I might as well be talking about all of them because that's all these apparitions focus on is devotion to Mary. Jesus is just an afterthought.

The real Mary of the bible would never have made herself the focus of adoration. She would have pointed to her son Jesus the saviour of mankind.

Click to expand...

How bout some context? How bout a link? I dislike personal intrepretation VERY much...

mrmoe said:

okay here's the context.

Matt 15:1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?



By following the traditions of men, Matt 15:9. Not doing the will of God, Matt 7:21

Click to expand...

See...three verses does not context make...this is usually the biggest problem.

mrmoe said:

Again you're making another assumption. satan has been around many thousands of years than you have and is many times more knowledgeable than you and I. He would not do something unless it benefited him and he would not make his deception obvious.

Click to expand...

How does requesting repentance and directing worship to God benefit him? ...does not compute....

mrmoe said:

The bible clearly states satan can transform himself into an angel of light and that he has servants that can transform into ministers of righteousness. 2 Corinthians 11:14-15

Click to expand...

Again context is key...what was St. Paul specifically warning against?

mrmoe said:

Also I noticed you didn't answer my question. How do you know Mary had compassion for all people?

Click to expand...

How do you know she didnt?

mrmoe said:

By church, what do you mean? Because there are at least three different meanings to the word and Catholics have a bad habit of using these definitions interchangeably.

Click to expand...

The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church in communion with the Holy See...specific enough?

mrmoe said:

Why don't you ask for their intercession?

Click to expand...

Personal preference...

yogosans14 said:

No...pray Is talking to God...its called a relationship

Click to expand...

Sure, praying can be talking to God, or asking him to talk to us, or simply listening.

Praying to saints is just talking as well.

MKJ said:

Sure, praying can be talking to God, or asking him to talk to us, or simply listening.

Praying to saints is just talking as well.

Click to expand...

I think there is some confusion over prayer and worship
that seems to be the root of much confusion, scandal, and ill will

GratiaCorpusChristi said:

I'll admit, I may have overstepped the bounds, there. At least regarding Mary. I'd be very suspicious of any claim that Christophanies are Satanic, though. Pure instinct, no real argument.

Click to expand...

MoreCoffee said:

Seems to me that if Satan can, in your opinions, appear as Mary or as Jesus Christ to deceive people what assurance do you have that the bible isn't the product of such deceptions?

Click to expand...

Some years ago I read in an Orthodox source the idea that when Satan approaches people, he is able to take images from their mind and appear in that form, particularly if that form is what the individual is expecting to seen.

This is why they tend not to recommend imaginative visualizations during prayer, or that they should be handled very carefully. I suppose this may be in part why they are so careful about art as well and tend to prefer it to be abstract.

Anyway, this sort of thing is supposed to be a spiritual danger especially likely to be directed towards those who are truly pious.

I don't imagine that these demons would be taking on the actual flesh of Mary or Christ. But what someone would imagine or believe Mary or Christ would look like - why not? God allows evil people to use his words, or claim his authority or favour, even when committing atrocities.

A good literary depiction of such an situation is in The Cunning Man, which is a rather nice novel for anyone interested in Christianity in literature.

I don't really worry about this being an issue with believing the Bible, mainly because I don't think its authority has got much to do with thinking that God whispered it in someones ear.

I don't think some healings or even faith found necessarily tells us that something is truly from God - especially the healings which I think Satan capable of accomplishing. I think Satan plays a long game, for one thing, and its strategic, not tactical. But I also think that these kinds of things aren't really directed at non-believers - they are attacks on believers. Sometimes you can't take away someone's faith, but you might be able to distort it, or even substitute the content without being detected, or make some parts of it less or more important than they ought to be.

"Padre Agostino confirmed this when Padre Pio said: "The Devil appeared as young girls that danced naked without any clothes on, as Christ Crucified, as a young friend of the friars, as the Spiritual Father or as the Provincial Father; as Pope Pius X, a Guardian Angel, as St. Francis and as Our Lady."

yogosans14 said:

The book of Mormon is also about Jesus.

Click to expand...

It may be, I have never read it. Have you?