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Marcion - Anti-Jewish

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by visionary, Jan 18, 2014.

  1. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    Marcion taught that the entire Old Testament should be rejected because it belonged to an evil, inferior God, and not to the God revealed by Jesus of Nazareth.

    Marcion was very anti-Jewish; therefore he also rejected any New Testament writings which appeared to speak favorably of “Jewish practices”. By Jewish practices I mean keeping the laws and commandments of the Old Testament. One writer says..

    Marcion’s most influential writing was a work entitled Antithesis, described as
    There are no known copies of Antithesis in existence. What we know about Marcion’s teachings comes mainly from the writings of those who opposed his heresy. One who wrote the most about Marcion was Tertullian. Tertullian was a church leader who wrote a lengthy work called Against Marcion. Tertullian describes Antithesis as
    Is Marcion the infiltrator with Spirit of Lawlessness??
     
  2. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    Tertullian states
    and it is also found in the book called Against Marcion.
     
  3. aniello

    aniello Guest

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    Earlier than Marcion is Ignatius of Antioch ((c. 35 or 50) - (from 98 to 117))[: Ignatius of Antioch - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Ignatius is claimed to be the first known Christian writer to argue in favor of Christianity's replacement of the Sabbath with the Lord's Day:
    Be not seduced by strange doctrines nor by antiquated fables, which are profitless. For if even unto this day we live after the manner of Judaism, we avow that we have not received grace ... If then those who had walked in ancient practices attained unto newness of hope, no longer observing Sabbaths but fashioning their lives after the Lord's day, on which our life also arose through Him and through His death which some men deny ... how shall we be able to live apart from Him? ... It is monstrous to talk of Jesus Christ and to practise Judaism. For Christianity did not believe in Judaism, but Judaism in Christianity — Ignatius to the Magnesians 8:1, 9:1-2, 10:3, Lightfoot translation.
    He is also responsible for the first known use of the Greek word katholikos (καθολικός), meaning "universal", "complete" and "whole" to describe the church, writing:
    Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful to baptize or give communion without the consent of the bishop. On the other hand, whatever has his approval is pleasing to God. Thus, whatever is done will be safe and valid. — Letter to the Smyrnaeans 8, J.R. Willis translation.


    Seems to me he was fairly anti_Torah, perchance anti semetic too. The perversion seems to start quite early leading right up to what becomes RCC.
     
  4. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    You're right, it started earlier but there was a mass of heresies which I will call Marcionism that I guess you can say watered that Ignatius seed, giving it branches and leaves and it bears fruit even today. Marcion taught that reformation was needed.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2014
  5. daq

    daq Messianic

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    The "canon" of Marcion essentially consisted of the Gospel of Luke and the epistles of Paul. But of course he took a pair of scissors to the epistles of Paul and literally cut out all of the Tanak quotes from the writings of Paul. At times it seems that the only real difference between Marcion and some of the more liberal modern shepherd-scholars is that the moderns do not use real scissors anymore but rather "theological scissors" when they teach and believe that Torah has been abolished. :)
     
  6. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    Do not understand the theological need to do away with the old testament---The new testament says we are to "study to show ourselves approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." 2 Tim 2:15--"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." 2 Tim 3:16. That would have to be the old testament, as the new testament hadn't been written yet, and the apostles, until then, had just written letters telling about the birth of Christ and explaining more fully on the old testament. All new "Christians", from among the Jews and later the Gentiles, were converted to Christianity from the old testament. Without the old testament--there is no basis for the new testament, there is no basis for the belief
    in creation. The Ethiopian eunuch that was reading the scriptures while in his chariot and was baptized, was reading the old testament. Christ was the fullfilment of the old testament. In fact, He taught the old testament, and led all to a better understanding of the old testamant.
     
  7. daq

    daq Messianic

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    Perhaps that is the only way to pacify the inner desire of some to nullify certain clear emphatic statements which we know shall never pass away? The following is one such clear emphatic statement which was never expounded, explained, altered, or rescinded:

    Matthew 15:24 KJV
    24. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    Matthew 15:24 YLT
    24. and he answering said, 'I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.'

    Matthew 15:24 RSV
    24. He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

    Matthew 15:24 WEY
    24. "I have only been sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel," He replied.


    Understand how this might cause a rather large dilemma for some? It is not "Replacement Theology" but rather "joining the community of Israel theology". And this is not out of context because Yeshua never changes his mind or relents and the statement concerns a Canaanite woman of Tyre. Yet in the end it is she that is willing to change her own mindset, (willing to first become like a "dog" sitting beneath the table of the Master and eat whatever "crumbs of truth" might fall to her from his table) and she is eventually grafted into the fold by faith, (see Isaiah 23:17-18 and Acts 21:3-5 for possible references to this passage). :)
     
  8. ContraMundum

    ContraMundum Messianic Jewish Christian Supporter

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    No, I don't think the timeline works for that theory. Marcion of course was just another heretic who tried to change the faith and failed.
     
  9. CherubRam

    CherubRam Judaic Christian

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    In the occult Satan is also called "Lord." Sunday is the Sabbath for Satan also.
     
  10. CherubRam

    CherubRam Judaic Christian

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    As always, when there are to many hands in the pot that creates confusion.
     
  11. Moriah Ruth 777

    Moriah Ruth 777 Encourager/Exhorter

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    Wasn't Marcion part of the Roman church that had started at that time?
     
  12. ContraMundum

    ContraMundum Messianic Jewish Christian Supporter

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    The Roman Church started in Apostolic times, before Marcion was a leader. Marcion was a leader in Sinope, Greece. The Church in Rome correctly excommunicated him for heresy.
     
  13. Moriah Ruth 777

    Moriah Ruth 777 Encourager/Exhorter

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    I see. Thank you Contra.
     
  14. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Last edited: Jan 27, 2014
  15. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    Evidence of his influence is still seen.
     
  16. Phillip Hawley

    Phillip Hawley Y'shua HaMoshiach based Messianic Jew

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    Hi Contra,

    This is outside the boundaries of this OP, but I thought it worth mentioning. There has been rampant prejudice that has manifested itself in various way within Judaism and Christianity over the centuries. Most of it has been linked in one way or another to actual historical events and the political agendas and reactions of the leadership of both religions. Perhaps it is time to examine, in its own thread, what we know about these events, trends, and the events that triggered or reinforced them. So much the better to understand the hows and whys of their manifestations.

    Though we do not agree on everything, I think of you as sincere and level-headed. So I was going to suggest that you consider the formulation of an OP to discuss these trends in history and how me might best be served in understanding them.

    I realize the magnitude of an undertaking of this sort. But I was wondering if you would consider it. It is not enough to look at the doctrines and actions of one individual. A 'one and done' approach is sorely lacking in depth. This topic deserves a broader treatment. What do you think?

    Yours in Him,
    Phillip
     
  17. aniello

    aniello Guest

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    This could be a worthy pursuit assuming it commences with the earliest of the ECFs that markedly and effectually depart from the Authority of the Word extant at the time(namely Torah) to the result that we still contend with such departures even until this day. May I mention Ignatius of Antioch and whoever of his contemporaries as a possible beginning point. http://www.christianforums.com/t7799383/#post64866509

    Why is it I doubt this has the chances of the proverbial snowball? Rhetorical, no answer solicited nor wanted.

    Pace, ciaou.
     
  18. Phillip Hawley

    Phillip Hawley Y'shua HaMoshiach based Messianic Jew

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    I was thinking even earlier than that. Antisemitic themes abound in tanakh. So too do anti-goyim themes that are unwarranted under Torah. A comprehensive look would be best. But I agree that padding and body armor may be the requisite fashion du jour. ;) Oh yeah. Snowballs...

    ...with rocks! :D

    :wave:

     
  19. Gxg (G²)

    Gxg (G²) Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7) Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Of course his influence is still seen today - in the same way the opposite influence of the Ebonites and others is still present when they went in the opposite direction. Both groups within the Church had to be addressed...

    Thankfully, theology itself in the Early Church doesn't lend itself to the idea to assume that anything pertaining to the OT was automatically within the negative and only that within the NT was good. For the heresy of Marcionism tried to divorce the God of the OT from the God of the NT in a false scenario ...but the Early Church valued OT practice (more shared here, here, here) and thankfully combated him...


    Technically, as it concerns the OP, Marcionism would tend to show up (if equating it with the spirit of lawlessness) whenever there are aspects of making it out as if the God of the OT is not the same as the God of the NT. In example, if God commanded Capital Punishment in the O.T. (which we all acknowledge), and if that makes the god of the O.T. a "vengeful" God (as opposed to the God of the N.T.), one would just of adopted Marcionism in the area of capital punishment: the gnostic "dualism" approach of the testaments where the god of the O.T. is the god of evil matter, and the God of the N.T. is the "loving", "merciful" God.

    And even outside of Marcionism, there were others promoting the spirit of lawlessness whenever they would try to add on to what God commanded of believers in the New Covenant and say that it was a matter of keeping the Law - for in doing so, that'd be a matter of sin. This is what the Ebionites (certain camps of them, specifically) were guilty of opposite of Marcion when they advocated the keeping of all aspects of the OT in order to avoid being lawless as they saw it....for going past what Yeshua noted and what God promoted is what lawlessness is about.....and lawlessness was never about not following all things solely in Mosaic code. When God gave different laws to different groups, that was the Law they were to be for - and to go back to a previous system of law was disobedience in itself - as well as promoting the wrong law.




    Sin is what lawlessness is defined by - not systems of law given at one time or another. To those under the Law of Moses, to go past that was SIN - and at the same time, there were others not bound by the Mosaic Law (like Jethro of Midian and others like Noah ) who were given differing requirements/laws (as the Gentiles were outside of Israel ) and to not be faithful to that was SIN - for them. And likewise, in Matthew 7, many quote that saying "That's the way Yeshua will speak to the Gentiles since they were lawless (i.e. not under Mosaic Code!!!") yet the context is one where he was speaking primarily to a Jewish audience - warning them of false prophets who were doing many things that were approved of/asked by the Lord...but it wasn't His HEART nor was it His Will for them.

    There's an excellent paper on the issue elsewhere if interested - as it address the Anti-Semitism present in Marcionism and other systems that developed to combat it and yet went in other directions. ..for the paper explores Ebionism and Marcionism, two early church heresies which depict the two most antithetical forms of the Judaism-OT and Christianity-NT breach in early Christianity. It addresses Ebionism's philo-Semitlism and Marcionism’s chagrin for the Jewish roots of Christianity - both shown to be antecedents to certain contemporary heretical conceptions ...and both having a corrective found in Paul's metaphor of God’s revelatiory-redemptive olive tree (Romans 1/:/7-24) which aptly describes the dual necessity of the root and the branches, that is the Old and New Testaments.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2014
  20. ContraMundum

    ContraMundum Messianic Jewish Christian Supporter

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    Thanks for the idea...that would be a hefty undertaking.

    And I agree with you on the Tanakh and so forth. I would even say that John's writings occassionaly look like that of a self-hating Jew.

    I guess it's all about what one makes of it all. I just look for God in His word, and I see His love for all and His pain resulting from our sins and allow that to help me find some balanced context in that complex world we call the Bible.