Man's Worth

[Albion]

By becoming man, Jesus actually sanctified man, confirming man's inherit goodness

So there should be no more doubt about where any of us stands on this, at least.

 

[fhansen]

You're right. It's a fundamental difference between Humanism/Unitarianism/Modernism and, on the other side, traditional Christianity. But many Christians, being raised in a culture that emphasizes self-worth, etc. don't realize it.

Traditional Christainity recognizes man's sinfulness while acknowledging a balance between man's falleness and created goodness: i.e. man is not totally depraved but weakened, the image of God distorted, and yet in any case unable to lift himself back to the heights from which he fell.

 

[fhansen]

So there should be no more doubt about where any of us stands on this, at least.

Yes, the alternative is that God created evil, which is actually reasserting that there is no God.

 

[Albion]

Yes, the alternative is that God created evil, which is actually reasserting that there is no God.

No, that is not the alternative. God allows evil; he didn't create it.

 

[fhansen]

Yes, it's a dangerous and silly notion to believe that God might've created man good. And that any trace of that goodness might still reside and show itself in, for example, the love of a mother or a random act of kindness/courtesy of a non-believer, or the sheer glee of a child, whom Jesus loved and praised for their innocence without reference to their status vis a vis salvation, or a non-Christian's act of self-sacrifice for a friend. I believe this abject denial of any goodness retained in man to be a sort of myopic foolishness. God's simply after redeeming the goodness He created man to have, sifting the wheat from the tares within His otherwise good creation.

 

[TamaraLynne]

No, that is not the alternative. God allows evil; he didn't create it.

Thats how I see it...kinda like like pot telling the potter it does not want to be shaped that way...the pot is trying to be the potter and it pushes away from the potters hand and becomes separated but all it can do is break or if not hardened it flops down to the ground and becomes distorted...and the distorted or broken pot says...I am beautiful and art...can't you see the art that I have made of myself from my fall...fooling some but even the deformed pot is not happy about its shape.
Nothing can create unless it takes Gods creation and shapes it into something different...

but God allows it...maybe he is waiting for the pot to realize its folly.

 

[fhansen]

No, that is not the alternative. God allows evil; he didn't create it.

Well. I certainly would never disagree with that. Unfortunately some apparently believe that God is the cause of even evil.

 

[Gnarwhal]

Traditional Christainity recognizes man's sinfulness while acknowledging a balance between man's falleness and created goodness: i.e. man is not totally depraved but weakened, the image of God distorted, and yet in any case unable to lift himself back to the heights from which he fell.

This is well put.

We all need a savior, but that doesn't mean we are without the image of God, which in itself is good. Thus we possess inherent goodness for that reason. We cannot be saved by that, only Christ.

 

[Albion]

This is well put.

Yeh. I agree. It also seems to be quite different from what he told us a few posts back. Maybe we induced him to reconsider after all.

 

[fhansen]

Referring to my OP I believe John Chrysostom was mature enough in faith to recognize in man his created goodness, looking past the ignorance, weakness, misplaced anger, and pride of fallen humankind. He would've still been able to find Christ, the image of God, in the least of us, as Mother Teresa could. He would not have subscribed to a doctrine such as "total depravity" while nonetheless recognizing man's inability to save himself, man's need for God in all things, in all ways. In any case I believe his statement about man is true and worthy of consideration.

 

[christ disciple]

Jesus, by dying on the cross, confirmed man's desperate need for a Savior. There is no righteousness except through Christ. It is Christ's righteousness we glorify, and not our own. We have none. That's why we desperately need a Savior.

Amen Sister!

 

[christ disciple]

You're right. It's a fundamental difference between Humanism/Unitarianism/Modernism and, on the other side, traditional Christianity. But many Christians, being raised in a culture that emphasizes self-worth, etc. don't realize it.

Yes, I would agree. In this generation, as well as others, exaltation of "self" is promoted.

The scripture has a term for that, it's called idolatry.

Would you not agree?

Who else sought to exalt himself?
Hint: he was cast out of Heaven.

Again, worth or value is only established by the "One" who places it upon something/someone.

How is it then that we place so much value upon ourselves? (Rhetorical ?)

I can do all things through Christ...., but on the flipside apart from Him I am nothing.


Tell me, If I wish to be a Disciple of Christ, what does the scripture say I must do?

This question is more for the onlookers, but I believe you know the answer.

 

[TamaraLynne]

Yes, I would agree. In this generation exaltation of "self" is promoted.

The scripture has a term for that, it's called idolatry.

Would you not agree?

Again, worth or value is only established by the "One" who places it upon something/someone.

How is it then that we place so much value upon ourselves? (Rhetorical ?)

I think even looking at ourselves as wretched and sinful can keep our attention on ourselves way to long to where focusing on others is almost impossible.

I'm getting use to loving myself a little bit because God told us to love him with all our hearts and to love others as ourselves.
Its hard to love myself when for so long I thought it a sin. So God wants us to know our worth...

 

[christ disciple]

I think even looking at ourselves as wretched and sinful can keep our attention on ourselves way to long to where focusing on others is almost impossible.

I'm getting use to loving myself a little bit because God told us to love him with all our hearts and to love others as ourselves.
Its hard to love myself when for so long I thought it a sin. So God wants us to know our worth...

Yes, the natural tendency of man is to love himself.

What two commandments did Christ give us?

 

[fhansen]

I think even looking at ourselves as wretched and sinful can keep our attention on ourselves way to long to where focusing on others is almost impossible.

I'm getting use to loving myself a little bit because God told us to love him with all our hearts and to love others as ourselves.
Its hard to love myself when for so long I thought it a sin. So God wants us to know our worth...

That's it! Even with ourselves we're to come to hate the sin-but love the sinner-otherwise we're denouncing God's very creation. I think it might actually still be pride, posing as humility, sort of a subtle new face of Phariseeism, that makes us over-focus on our evilness, wretchedness, etc. because somehow we tend to feel holier when we do so-maybe this is related to shame. Anyway, somewhere back inside all people must exist something of awesome worth, testifying to an awesome God!

 

[TamaraLynne]

Yes, the natural tendency of man is to love himself.

What two commandments did Christ give us?

I must be an odd fish


As a mom with eight children I understand about the bubble or how my children think the world revolves around them. I take notice right away when they reach out to others and it is not so much about them.
We know what we know and of course it is the core of our existence to be aware of ourselves and then to be aware of how everything around us affects us...it is us being aware of ourselves that increases learning of what is around us. We even have to understand the good around us to embrace it and then give it. I understand some people out there have not quite gotten the memo about loving others but they love themselves and grab at whatever they think will make them happy and probably angry when others don't bow to their desires.Makes me wonder how they observed the world while growing up to become this way.

If a child in Africa is close to death because of starvation and someone comes along and feeds him and he is brought back to health. When that child grows up and sees someone else who is starving ...empathy will sting his heart and he will reach out in love and feed the hungry person. It is because we are aware of ourselves first and then we can look at others as we look at ourselves...this is how I see it

I had it kinda rough as a child and I blamed myself and thought that everything around me that was happening was because of something about me. For example when I was in the fifth grade my stepdad went to prison and my mom was an alcoholic so all of us children were separated into foster homes and my real dad came to the mainland(he lived in Hawaii) he spent one day with us and promised to come back to take us home with him..he never came back For years I thought it was because I was not pretty and he just did not want an ugly daughter to be near him. I felt worthless.
It has taken way to long of me trying focusing on who I think I am and get the focus of my worth to be where it should be.

If it was up to God he would want me to run into his arms...he wants me to see how he sees me. He came and died for all of us because we are worth it.

My real dad walked away...but god the father does not walk away...we do. Even if it is in a wretched state of seeing ourselves or a spoiled me me me the world bows to me type of people. Basically we need to just snap out of it and open our eyes again..God is so patient and first we have to feel that love and KNOW we are worth it in the eyes of God...then we can step out and love others...by the way it is like Christmas loving others and knowing their worth and giving is so much better then sitting there feeling sad about how many gifts or if any that you might receive .
All I know is God has been working on what I mean to him...he already knows how I love him but he wants me to know who I am to him..how much he loves me...and I know that I will be able to reach out in love to others especially those who have a wretched wretched view of themselves...because I've been there.


Mr 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

Mr 12:31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

 

[TamaraLynne]

That's it! Even with ourselves we're to come to hate the sin-but love the sinner-otherwise we're denouncing God's very creation. I think it might actually still be pride, posing as humility, sort of a subtle new face of Phariseeism, that makes us over-focus on our evilness, wretchedness, etc. because somehow we tend to feel holier when we do so-maybe this is related to shame. Anyway, somewhere back inside all people must exist something of awesome worth, testifying to an awesome God![/QUO

Amen! But I hope we don't focus to much on our wretchedness...but it is a process of renewing our mind.

 

[MamaZ]

I will tell you the worth of a man. For God so Loved the World that He gave His Only begotten Son. That whosoever believes in Him shall not Perish but have everlasting Love..

 

[MamaZ]

As far as being worthy. There is no man that has ever lived other than Christ who is worthy of anything. For it is all Gods Grace that any man even lives.

 

[fhansen]

As far as being worthy. There is no man that has ever lived other than Christ who is worthy of anything. For it is all Gods Grace that any man even lives.

A way I'd put it is to say that if man is worthy, it's for no other reason than because of God's love. A 16th century believer's quote relates to this: "It's love alone that gives worth to all things". (Teresa of Avila)