mandatory vaccinations

[Chany]

Thats why i said "ideally" but wouldnt it be nice

No, it wouldn't. Decent governments appear to operate under something like the original position and the veil of ignorance: that is, when we decide how we ought to set up society, we must assume that we are trying to decide how to set up society from the ground up, but, also, we must assume we will not know where we wind up in this society.

For example, let's say we are trying to decide whether a theocracy is good. If you are of the religion the theocracy is, then you will be fine. However, you could have just as likely been another religious belief, or flirt the edges of the religion, or disagree with a theocracy on a philosophical level. In this case, it can be clearly seen the government is oppressive; we could have just as easily been on the side of the government that is oppressed and not really respected. We would have to follow a specific religion's rules that we do not agree with at all. This is not a just government; it does not care about the freedom and conscience of its people.

Generally speaking, any government body that is philosophically motivated by the same ideology (just with a different religion) as Saudi Arabia is not ideal. Quite the opposite, actually.

 

[Davidnic]

My understanding is he gave them those things and they were auctioned off as part of the initial drive for food for the poor. He didn't give them as a passing of authority. The many ultra trad blogs like the offensive and insulting I am Jorge bergoglio blog will paint it otherwise irrelevant to the fact

 

[IHOM]

Nah it sounds too fishy to me.... there are plenty of other "treasures" the vatican could auction off but dont... why the united nations...which is communist...all the prophetic warnings of saints mystics and our lady... to me the church has been given over to the unbelievers (the united nations) to be persecuted and put to death... i believe it is all part of the divine plan

 

[Davidnic]

Yep Checked it out they were given to be sold for the poor. . not to give temporal authority to the UN. Ultra Trad blogs need fact checks

 

[Davidnic]

So the Pope handed authority over is your belief?

 

[IHOM]

So why wasnt paintings and other things sold too... or at first....

Why say the un is the hope for peace in the world when we know there is no peace without christ.

Why abandon the tiara even from the papal coats of arms as well then?

 

[IHOM]

No my belief is possibly the pope handed over the church to the non believers to e persecuted and killed...like judas did with christ

 

[Davidnic]

So you start in direct opposition to the Church's moral theology and guidance on vaccinations. And by this point in the thread compare the actions of Pope Paul VI to the actions of Judas.

 

[Chany]

Why say the un is the hope for peace in the world when we know there is no peace without christ.

I have a feeling you are reading too into the rhetoric.

 

[IHOM]

No i am pro vaccination in an ideal world.
And possibly yes regarding pope paul..i am a catholic and i believe in the papacy and the church.. but above all i believe in jesus christ. If the church declares that which it can not at the synod we will know... as cardinal burke pointed out there is a powerful group pushing gay marriage and remaried catholics be allowed to go to communion....who is francis....peter or judas?

 

[Davidnic]

No i am pro vaccination in an ideal world.
And possibly yes regarding pope paul..i am a catholic and i believe in the papacy and the church.. but above all i believe in jesus christ. If the church declares that which it can not at the synod we will know... as cardinal burke pointed out there is a powerful group pushing gay marriage and remaried catholics be allowed to go to communion....who is francis....peter or judas?

Well there is actually a theological way to allow divorce and remarriage in cases of infidelity or abuse. It is available in both Dogma and Cannon Law. We will see if they use it. It would not be a radical shift and anyone who believes in automatic excommunication should be fine with the mechanism. Essentially it would be an automatic annulment in cases of unfaithfulness and abuse. A mechanism can be refined and faithfully implemented. Not sure if they will do it but our theology would allow it and it could be explained and taught properly. Of course Ultra Trads would have a problem with it. But they have big problems with much that Christ taught too. The right side of the cafeteria is what it is.

 

[IHOM]

Not that i am disagreeing with you but can you tell me the canon law and what dogma your refering to please.

Perhaps consistant repeated abuse after counciling etc but infidelity... i think forgivness 70 x 7 is needed... a constant witness from the faithfull spouse... however in a case of physical abuse for the safety of the victim then perhaps an annulment could be sought.

 

[Davidnic]

In canon law there is a mechanism for automatic excommunication. It is possible that the Bishops will work on that logic to provide annulments in narrow circumstances that do not need to go through a lengthy process. Dogma wise since annulments do not contradict Dogma...it would be those relevant teachings on the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony.

Let's say someone is unfaithful and unrepentant; not willing to work on the marriage to repair or change. Or physically and emotionally abusive. Both of those things can result in an annulment. The Bishops could implement a mechanism that works to create a streamlined, if not exactly automatic, annulment in a set of narrow conditions: Sexual abuse, physical abuse, mental torment, unfaithfulness...these would be my guess as far as circumstances.

The method would need refinement but there is a concept of someone destroying the heart of a spouse and never being capable of committing to marriage via either incapability or hiding who they are.

The thought would need some refinement but...it is the one way I can think of that could allow the victimized spouse to receive the Eucharist while still having a new and actual real marriage. What they can not do is legitimize divorce. There is no mechanism. But they could allow something like above with some work.

 

[IHOM]

I think in cases of abuse only as a extreme last resort... in cases of adultery only if the adulterer ends the marriage as the faithful christian is called to be a witness to the sacrament of marriage...... even then a faithfull christian should be encouraged to entrust the burden of abandonment to our lord... although i dont think this should be a requirement

In cases of those re married outside of the church.... the marriage should be declared illigitimate then annulment sought before a church marriage is granted

automatic annulment the church would be complicit in leaving the door open to abuse of the sacrament.

I know these things sound harsh and like all of us i too have a sense of compassion and empathy and would hate to be in the same boat... but we are called to be witnesses to christ and the church is there to safe guard the sacraments.... we must make sure empathy and compassion are not given primary consideration but first and foremosr the sacrament of marriage.... and as for gay marriage... well that is out of the question

 

[Davidnic]

Someone being the victim of abuse abuses the Sacrament. In cases of abuse anyone has the right to leave for safety. The Sacrament is not a shield for torment willingly inflicted on a spouse. A spouse should leave and if the abuser will not change their lives the marriage really does not exist. Someone who is an abuser is a monster who is not capable of honest entry into the Sacrament. An adulterer who will not repent is in continual violation of the bond. Both of these are reasons for valid annulments in Catholic Teaching. The Church does not require a spouse to stay and endure abuse or unfaithfulness. And the spouse who is the victim can get an annulment. It would not be hard to extend that logic in a faithful manner.

There could easily be measures to prevent abuse of the Sacrament you are concerned about.