Major Contradictions among Protestants

[Tzaousios]

Except Augustine, right?

Ha! That is SO true. So many Catholics who bellow out "read the church fathers" ad nauseam are simultaneously in a process of outright denial of a good deal of St. Augustine's work.

If they even know about it, they ignore and sweep under the rug his letter to Simplicianus and just about every part of his work after 397 AD in which he discusses election/predestination and the relationship between the human and divine wills. This includes practically cutting out huge portions of the Confessions and City of God, no less! It is quite comical.

 

[Hentenza]

Of course Jesus renaming Simon Rock and giving him the keys to the kingdom applies to the pope.

The other verses apply to Jesus giving his authority to men, which you said he did not do.

None applies. No office of pope is ordained in scripture. That is a RC construct.

 

[A New Dawn]

Of course Jesus renaming Simon Rock and giving him the keys to the kingdom applies to the pope.

The other verses apply to Jesus giving his authority to men, which you said he did not do.

Sorry, the only keys Jesus gave to Peter were the keys to opening the gospel to the gentiles. You know the Bible has to interpret itself, and nowhere in the Bible does it speak of an institution like the CC and that God would honor that institution. It does speak of Peter taking the gospel to the gentile first, though. That was the thrust of the great commission, wasn't it? To take the gospel to the world?

 

[chestertonrules]

Sorry, the only keys Jesus gave to Peter were the keys to opening the gospel to the gentiles. You know the Bible has to interpret itself, and nowhere in the Bible does it speak of an institution like the CC and that God would honor that institution. It does speak of Peter taking the gospel to the gentile first, though. That was the thrust of the great commission, wasn't it? To take the gospel to the world?

You are giving me a false and man made interpretation that is not in scripture.

 

[chestertonrules]

Ha! That is SO true. So many Catholics who bellow out "read the church fathers" ad nauseam are simultaneously in a process of outright denial of a good deal of St. Augustine's work.

.

Where do you come up with this stuff?

"I would not believe in the Gospel myself if the authority of the Catholic Church did not influence me to do so."
Against the letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D.


"We must hold to the Christian religion and to communication in her Church which is Catholic, and which is called Catholic not only by her members but even by all her enemies. For when heretics or the adherents of schisms talk about her, not among themselves but with strangers, willy-nilly they call her nothing else but Catholic. For they would not be understood unless they distinguish her by this name which the whole world employs in her regard."
The True Religion, 7,12, 397 A.D.

"This Church is Holy, the One Church, the True Church, the Catholic Church, fighting as she does against all heresies. She can fight, but she cannot be beaten. All heresies are expelled from her, like the useless loppings pruned from a vine. She remains fixed in her root, in her vine, in her love. The gates of hell shall not conquer her."
Sermon to Catechumens, on the Creed, 6,14, 395 A.D.

"But in regard to those observances which we carefully attend and which the whole world keeps, and which derive not from Scripture but from tradition, we are given to understand that they are recommended and ordained to be kept either by the Apostles themselves or by plenary Councils, the authority of which is quite vital to the Church."
Letter to Januarius 54,1,1, 400 A.D.

"I believe that this practice comes from apostolic tradition, just as so many other practices not found in their writings nor in the councils of their successors, but which, because they are kept by the whole Church everywhere, are believed to have been commended and handed down by the Apostles themselves."
Baptism 1,12,20, 400 A.D.

"Before His suffering the Lord Jesus Christ, as you know, chose His disciples, whom He called Apostles. Among these Apostles almost everywhere Peter alone merited to represent the whole Church. For the sake of his representing the whole Church, which he alone could do, he merited to hear, I will give you the keys of the kingdom of Heaven (Matt 16:19)."
Sermons 295,2, 391 A.D.

Gem from St Augustine

 

[Hentenza]

You are giving me a false and man made interpretation that is not in scripture.

Mmm... no. but by your own logic neither is pope. lol

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

You are giving me a false and man made interpretation that is not in scripture.

Yeah, the OC Judeans found that out the hard way

John 5:39 "Ye are searching the Writings that ye are seeming in them Life age-during to be having, and those are the ones-testifying about Me".

Reve 14:11 And the smoke of the tormenting of them into ages of ages is ascending
and not they are having Rest day and night

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

*snip*
.......While the significance of this seemingly pointless detail has been neglected by scholars throughout the centuries, you can be certain that it did not escape the notice of the Pharisees and scribes to which Yeshua was speaking.

They thoroughly knew their history and were extremely proud of their heritage. Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who he was referring to with this parable. This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the House of Judah, the Jews!

 

[Tzaousios]

Where do you come up with this stuff?

"I would not believe in the Gospel myself if the authority of the Catholic Church did not influence me to do so."
Against the letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D...

Nice chop-job of my post. How about a little intellectual integrity here?

You confuse me with other posters who make it their business to argue endlessly over the institutionalization of Roman Catholicism. I could care less about who was pope when and who Catholics think received the keys.

The part you chopped off was about theological issues. Your cribbing of Augustine snippets from some Catholic apologetics website addressed none of them.

Have you actually read Ad Simplicianum or City of God?

 

[chestertonrules]

Nice chop-job of my post. How about a little intellectual integrity here?

?

How about you man up to the cold hard fact that Augustine was a pope loving hard core Catholic?

 

[Fireinfolding]

Sorry, the only keys Jesus gave to Peter were the keys to opening the gospel to the gentiles. You know the Bible has to interpret itself, and nowhere in the Bible does it speak of an institution like the CC and that God would honor that institution. It does speak of Peter taking the gospel to the gentile first, though. That was the thrust of the great commission, wasn't it? To take the gospel to the world?

I posted this elsewhere seems to be the case as confirmed below...

Cornelius and Peter

Acts 10:5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:

Acts 10:18 And called, and asked whether Simon, which was surnamed Peter, were lodged there.

Acts 10:21 Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek: what is the cause wherefore ye are come?

Acts 10:22 And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee.

Acts 10:33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.

And so Peter says...

Acts 10:41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.

Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

In Acts 15:7 Peter is just conveying what Acts 10 bears witness to Acts 11:4 Peter rehearses it again to those contending with him on it of the circumcision and in Acts 15 Peter speaks of the same here...

Acts 15:7 Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Which agrees with Cornelius's words earlier in Acts 10:33

Acts 10:33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.

Back to Acts 15 further down (after Peter speaks sharing about this)

Acts 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.


And then ofcourse Paul took over (for the most part) the ministry to the gentiles and Peter to the circumcision, he opened the door of faith to them and God by Him (having heard) received the Holy Spirit

So now...

Gal 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

Gal 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Where do you come up with this stuff?

"I would not believe in the Gospel myself if the authority of the Catholic Church did not influence me to do so."
Against the letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D.

Wow! I will have to study up on that some more

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

How about you man up to the cold hard fact that Augustine was a pope loving hard core Catholic?

Augustine would be proud of you bro ​

 

[A New Dawn]

How about you man up to the cold hard fact that Augustine was a pope loving hard core Catholic?

So you espouse the same beliefs as Augustine regarding the elect, then? Let's see, some of those beliefs would be

• As a result of Adam's fall, man is totally depraved. He is absolutely unable to do anything good or to save himself. In fact, he's even unable to believe or have faith in God.
• Therefore, humans can believe in God or have faith in Him only if by grace He first gives
  them this faith or belief. Man has no free will to choose either to believe or not to believe.
• God's decision to save one person and condemn another, to give faith to one person and
  withhold it from another, is totally arbitrary. There's nothing we can do to influence
  God's choice.
• Before the creation of the world, God arbitrarily predestined (not simply foreknew) who
  would be saved and who would be damned. There's nothing we can do either in this life
  or the next to change these matters.
• The elect, those who were predestined for salvation before the creation, cannot possibly
  lose their salvation. Those predestined for damnation cannot possibly be saved.
• No one can know whether or not he or she is of the elect. God gives many people the gift
  of faith so that they believe, are baptized and walk in Jesus' commandments. However,
  some of them haven't been predestined for salvation and ultimately won't persevere. The
  gift of perseverance is a separate gift from that of faith. We have no way of knowing who
  in the church has been given the gift of perseverance.

from Augustine, On Predestination of the Saints

Can be found here. http://www.freewill-predestination.com/files/augustine.pdf

 

[Tzaousios]

How about you man up to the cold hard fact that Augustine was a pope loving hard core Catholic?

Nice chopping of my post again. I fully acknowledge and have no problem that Augustine supported the Papacy and the Roman Catholic Church. Actually, I have no hatred towards either one, even though I have disagreements.

Nevertheless, I am quite sure you and many other Catholics would have a good deal of trouble with the things Augustine said about the theological issues of election/predestination and the relationship between the human and divine wills.

Have you actually read Ad Simplicianum or City of God? It takes a bit more work than cribbing prooftexts from something that has "free will" ostensibly in the title.

 

[Standing Up]

How about you man up to the cold hard fact that Augustine was a pope loving hard core Catholic?

Dude, he was a Protestant saying, "let the reader decide" about the rock being the confession of faith in the sole Rock--Jesus Christ.

 

[chestertonrules]

Nice chopping of my post again. I fully acknowledge and have no problem that Augustine supported the Papacy and the Roman Catholic Church. Actually, I have no hatred towards either one, even though I have disagreements.

Nevertheless, I am quite sure you and many other Catholics would have a good deal of trouble with the things Augustine said about the theological issues of election/predestination and the relationship between the human and divine wills.

Have you actually read Ad Simplicianum or City of God? It takes a bit more work than cribbing prooftexts from something that has "free will" ostensibly in the title.

The only book I've read is his Confessions, but I have read many excerpts and some of his essays, including his essay on Free Will and Grace which was written after the Pelagian controversy.

Most protestants don't realize this but there is a wide spectrum of acceptable beliefs regarding the free will/sovereignty question for Catholics.

Many Catholics hold beliefs that are very close to Calvinism.

The Church has decided that this question is beyond human understanding. Within certain guidelines many views are permissible.

I am heavily slanted toward the free will side of this spectrum.


As I understand it, the two non negotiables are that no Catholic may claim that man can be saved aside from God's grace nor can they claim that God predestines any man to hell.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Dude, he was a Protestant saying, "let the reader decide" about the rock being the confession of faith in the sole Rock--Jesus Christ.

I had a thread on that awhile back

http://www.christianforums.com/t7451655-6/#post54356007
Did Augustine retraction concerning Peter and the Rock?

 

[chestertonrules]

Dude, he was a Protestant saying, "let the reader decide" about the rock being the confession of faith in the sole Rock--Jesus Christ.

Read what he wrote.

Augustine was a strong supporter of the papacy. His interpretation of this particular passage, which he doesn't even allude to in the quote you are referencing, is irrelevant.


"Before His suffering the Lord Jesus Christ, as you know, chose His disciples, whom He called Apostles. Among these Apostles almost everywhere Peter alone merited to represent the whole Church. For the sake of his representing the whole Church, which he alone could do, he merited to hear, I will give you the keys of the kingdom of Heaven (Matt 16:19)."
Sermons 295,2, 391 A.D.

 

[squint]

As I understand it, the two non negotiables are that no Catholic may claim that man can be saved aside from God's grace nor can they claim that God predestines any man to hell.

Both of those positions are exceptionally solid. The latter cannot be found in determinism, which is unfortunate. The fact that the RCC cannot see that the devil and his messengers are predestined by God to the Lake of Fire is also unfortunate. They relegate the devil there by 'freewill' and claim that the devil was once a holy angel, which same is a missing position from text AND that it is too late for satan regardless of freewill which means satan's supposed freewill doesn't really do much for him going forward.

?

s

 

[Standing Up]

Read what he wrote.

Augustine was a strong supporter of the papacy. His interpretation of this particular passage, which he doesn't even allude to in the quote you are referencing, is irrelevant.


"Before His suffering the Lord Jesus Christ, as you know, chose His disciples, whom He called Apostles. Among these Apostles almost everywhere Peter alone merited to represent the whole Church. For the sake of his representing the whole Church, which he alone could do, he merited to hear, I will give you the keys of the kingdom of Heaven (Matt 16:19)."
Sermons 295,2, 391 A.D.

Thanks for reality LLOJ---

But 'the rock was Christ,' in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable." (The Retractions, 1:20:1)