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I could make some educated guesses, but that's all they would be; certainly not definitive answers.
- Singing the psalms is something that has to be learned and taught, and we have, on the whole, moved towards making our liturgy easier for beginners to participate in.
- The decline of church choirs. Where once every parish worth the name boasted a choir which rehearsed and could lead the congregation in something like this, now (at least where I am) that's the exception rather than the rule. Without the choir there is a crisis of confidence in this.
- The decline of chanting in general. We do not (except for a very few parishes) expect our clergy to be able to chant (although in many parishes if we can it is welcome), nor are we properly taught to do so. I learned only because I had a supervising priest who insisted, but many of my colleagues have never had the opportunity. So - if you have a priest who does not know how to lead, and no choir, and little musical expertise, then it is easier to read without singing...
I don't know. Who says they can't be included in anything until sterilized? I haven't. What I have said is that all unbelievers ought to be brought to faith in Christ before they are brought into the community of believers, the Church, to worship God and learn more of His truth and be encouraged and supported spiritually by brothers and sisters in the faith.
Of course we ought to be kind and welcoming of sinners! Just not into the Body of Believers, the Church.
No it's not. The very reverse is true. Everywhere I look I see churches accommodating the sin of homosexuality in their company. In fact, this was the point the OP made.
Like I said, I believed you were making different points than you were. I haven't really looked over the idea that you presented yet, so I'll provisionally accept them for the sake of argument.You're the one who made the assertion that they didn't support my points, so you bear the burden of demonstrating this is so. Can you? If not, then, as I said, you've expressed mere opinion rather than fact.
I agree that there is a change in culture. But attendance rates were low until the 20th Cent. A Christian America? What History Shows. So it's not just technology.I talked to a minister who lamented declining attendance that threatens his church's financial sustainability and very existence.
...
I talked to a Mason who lamented that young people aren't becoming Masons so much and his lodge is dwindling in number.
I believe a contributing factor to all of these events is a changing culture. We no longer look for social connection and affiliation in the same way we did before the tech revolution.
I agree that this is a common reading. But it's not so clear from the NT that everyone met weekly. Act 20:7 talks about meeting on Sunday, but a skeptic could say they met because Paul was there at the time. It doesn't actually say it's a regular weekly meeting. We also don't know how many of the Christians actually were in the meeting. How much evidence do we actually have?True...to a certain extent. But the New Testament does inform us that they gathered together for weekly worship, broke bread, chose leaders we'd call clergy today, heard the message of Jesus preached, administered baptisms, and even settled disputes among the members.
I agree that there is a change in culture. But attendance rates were low until the 20th Cent. A Christian America? What History Shows. So it's not just technology.
I think perhaps there is a bigger cultural gap between our traditions than you realise, dzheremi.
You talk about educating "new members," but for many of our parishes, membership is a relatively fluid thing. As long as you've been validly baptised somewhere, you can worship with us and take communion and we're unlikely to pressure you about becoming Anglican. (A few months ago, in the parish I've just left, we formally received into membership a woman who was raised Roman Catholic but had been worshipping in that parish, highly involved as a lay leader, etc for the last 25 years). So requiring people to learn the Anglican way of things, in any way more formal than by osmosis, would be problematic right there.
Here's the thing: the focus, for many of our parishes now, has become the question: If a random person who had never been to church walked through the door today, would they be able to understand and participate in whatever is happening? And if the answer is no, then the momentum is towards abandoning what that person could not understand and participate in. Since chanting vs. speaking is seen as adiaphora, chant has been a soft point that has, in most places, been abandoned very quickly. Because it's seen as a barrier, something that would be off-putting to that hypothetical random person.
Now you could argue that that question is putting the focus on the wrong thing, and I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you, but the fact remains that it is so.
The decline in choirs is related to the shifting trends in church music, I think. Once you have a parish that prefers a worship band, with drums and bass guitar and a lead singer with a microphone, the choir begins to be seen as outdated or even an obstacle to growth. Again, I might argue with that view (I think choosing a musical style and doing it excellently will generally attract people, rather than being hung up on one particular style as the answer to all our woes), but the fact remains that in most parishes, certainly where I am, the days of a "proper" choir are long gone.
What is being done to combat this? There are a few hold-outs. As I mentioned, the parish where I was after first being ordained maintains a proud "catholic" musical tradition, where I had to learn to chant and there is still an excellent choir. The cathedrals tend to nurture a proud musical tradition. But the problem here is that we are a church divided, and the more catholic parishes are in the minority.
Others are pushing ahead seeking excellence and numbers with the contemporary band-type approach. And when the majority of your clergy and parishes think the old styles of music are literally a waste of time, then... what do you do with that?
(Why) is it assumed that chanting would make it not possible to understand or participate in what is happening?
Am I to understand from this that there would have been a point in the past when this would not have been the case? If that's so, what is preventing at least an attempt to return to the earlier practice beyond the fact that it is now seen as antiquated and/or an obstacle to growth?
What if people actually want things that are antiquate, perhaps because in this time of rapid change and disorientation there is an accompanying sense of rootlessness in a lot of Western Christian religious practice?
Because singing is a learned skill. Singing in a liturgical style, even more so.
Whatever else it is, it is easier to read in unison than to sing as a congregation.
Sure. I can't put a date range on it, because I wasn't a church goer until after this shift, but certainly my guess is that 50 years ago the discussion would have been very different.
I'm not sure much else is preventing it, except that, as I said, lots of people don't want to, and see it as detrimental to the mission of the church.
I certainly think that there is a group of people who want, if not antiquated things for their own sake, something with a sense of depth and value which has stood the test of time. A sense of having deep roots and rich storehouses of corporate memory on which to draw to resource our living faith.
But many churches are overlooking that group, in an attempt to appeal to the group who want the quick buzz or the easiest possible offering. In a way, when I attempt to argue in my own church that it is possible to offer "traditional" forms of worship which actually appeal to young people, I am frankly disbelieved.
True enough, but you don't think it could be argued that singing is a rather natural form of worship? Not learning particular modes or settings, but just the act of singing. I seem to recall reading somewhere St. Augustine, that most Western of saints, once said that he who sings prays twice.
Hmm. And there is nobody out there who can show the people who feel this way why it is important? I understand your earlier bit about it being adiaphora, but I would think that it could be explained in some way as being beneficial rather than morally prescribed. Can you 'pray once' and not sing? Sure. But could you benefit from learning another style of worship that is far older in your own tradition than whatever the current mindset is? I don't see how the answer to that could be anything but yes, unless those who think that it is detrimental to the church are actually actively against learning about their own history, which would be an odd stance for those who show concern for the church in these other ways to have.
If it's possible to compare the retention and expansion rates of traditional parishes versus modern ones, I would be very interested to know whose belief is actually backed up by the numbers. Since the traditional appears to be denied on the grounds that it will harm the growth of the church, you'd think those advancing this view would be able to back it up by showing that eschewing the traditional has actually led to growth, while embracing it has led to diminution.
I know I'm inherently (and unabashedly!) biased, but I know which trend I would expect to see, and it does not favor the "let's get rid of the old ways because they'll turn people off" crowd, again, because we are having this conversation in the context of a situation in which we all recognize that Western Christianity in general is not growing, but shrinking.
I do think it could be argued. As you might have realised by now, you're not particularly arguing with me, here.
I don't know how to explain it to you. There is a level, not just of disinterest, but even of contempt for "traditional" practices.
From what little actual data I've seen, the suggestion is that the traditional parishes grow less/grow more slowly... but if you follow up on the people who come to faith in each, much later - ten, twenty years - the retention rate and commitment of people in more traditional parishes is better. So the slick contemporary folks meeting for worship in a movie theatre might have 800 people through the doors on Sunday, but twenty years from now, the little staid traditional parish next door with 80 people on Sunday will have nurtured a higher proportion of people into a sustaining faith,
So I see both as having a place, actually, but when one dominates much more than the other, it becomes hard to sustain.
I have been reading the postings and replies between you and Albion as I am also concerned about the health and readiness of Christ bride as we watch for His return. While our Lord did tell us to go and make disciples of all nations , teaching them to observe all that He commanded them , I believe the cost of discipleship and making disciples needs to be considered. What did it cost Jesus to make disciples ? What did it cost Peter , John , the apostle Paul and many of the early church fathers ...It cost them everything to make disciples .Now listen here you smiling pup! You better settle down or I'll git out the hose!
Seriously now,
I think I have misunderstood what you were trying to communicate. Let's try to bring this full circle. Now that I see what you're saying, that is an interesting idea. It might even add some depth to the characteristically shallow modern sermons since it would be all to believers, but I think reversing Christianity's decline in the West will require more than that. I think Christianity as it stands fails to capture the imaginations of people because what people hear is so shallow and politicized. It doesn't have to be that way, but that's all people are shown.
The original poster didn't mention homosexuality or even sin generally. He was only asking how we can change the fact that Christians are leaving the faith in droves, far faster than conversions can keep up with.
Like I said, I believed you were making different points than you were. I haven't really looked over the idea that you presented yet, so I'll provisionally accept them for the sake of argument.
I don't know how to explain it to you. There is a level, not just of disinterest, but even of contempt for "traditional" practices.
What you describe is very unfortunate, but I am sure that some people do feel that way.Having a formerly Catholic wife and several friends who were also Catholic in their upbringing, what they tell me about their experience of the traditions and rituals of Catholicism is that they compete or interfere with having genuine and personal fellowship with God. The pomp and circumstance of a Catholic mass, the sense of ancient tradition and ritual, obscure rather than illuminate Christ.
Can leaven be separated from dough? Maybe Christianity shouldn't be all that distinctive from the culture? Especially because western culture has been shaped so heavily by it?
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