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I've only known two pathological liars in my time. It's a bit shocking before you realize what's going on....you may believe some of the first lies as I think they tend to start small.
He had been an extra in dozens of movies, been struck by lightning five times, once memorized the dictionary, had three houses burn down in three freak accidents, been abducted by aliens....etc.
"Law is life itself and not the rules of its conduct. Evil is a transgression of law, not a violation of the rules of conduct pertaining to life, which is the law. Falsehood is not a matter of narration technique but something premeditated as a perversion of truth. The creation of new pictures out of old facts, the restatement of parental life in the lives of offspring these are the artistic triumphs of truth. The shadow of a hairs turning, premeditated for an untrue purpose, the slightest twisting or perversion of that which is principle these constitute falseness. But the fetish of factualized truth, fossilized truth, the iron band of so-called unchanging truth, holds one blindly in a closed circle of cold fact. One can be technically right as to fact and everlastingly wrong in the truth." UB 1955
Obama is a Christian, I think of his repeated lies about the ACA. To him the ends justify the means.
I also think the propensity to exaggerate when retelling stories such as the many exaggerations in the Old Testament.
I've never lied or exaggerated about my rebirth experience, I've retold it using the best way of explaining it that I could.
It is not whether the story is believable, but it is HOW do you appreciate the witnessed story.
Frankly, I don't see what you're getting at with this comment.
Maybe an example I know would help. My cousin has been a pastor for almost 20 years. He took a job as a pastor in Colorado... but had to do some soul searching to decide if he wanted to take it. He decided to take a nature hike and pray. He reached the top of a small peak, sat down and began praying to god for a sign on whether or not he should take the job. According to him, he'd been praying for maybe 10-15 minutes when a hawk came and landed on his shoulder. Not hawk droppings... the hawk itself perched on him. He took this as a sign he should take the job.
Personal stories, especially of the supernatural, are exciting, but so tempting to exaggerate. It's not that you're trying to lie; you're trying to convey the feeling of what happened, even if the facts might not have looked that dramatic. It's difficult not to represent God's voice, for example, as sounding much clearer than it actually was. Such stories also tend, despite our expressed intentions, to glorify us rather than God.
I've only known two pathological liars in my time. It's a bit shocking before you realize what's going on....you may believe some of the first lies as I think they tend to start small.
He had been an extra in dozens of movies, been struck by lightning five times, once memorized the dictionary, had three houses burn down in three freak accidents, been abducted by aliens....etc.
Relating someone's story isn't really a lie, unless you added some embellishments to it.
I also understand that one of the reasons many atheists lose or begin to question their faith is because they never had an incident they attributed to god...so there's probably many atheists out there without any stories of this kind.
Maybe an example I know would help. My cousin has been a pastor for almost 20 years. He took a job as a pastor in Colorado... but had to do some soul searching to decide if he wanted to take it. He decided to take a nature hike and pray. He reached the top of a small peak, sat down and began praying to god for a sign on whether or not he should take the job. According to him, he'd been praying for maybe 10-15 minutes when a hawk came and landed on his shoulder. Not hawk droppings... the hawk itself perched on him. He took this as a sign he should take the job.
I was really surprised when he told me he told his congregation this story...I didn't think he thought anyone would believe it. I certainly didn't....too far-fetched.
I'm not asking if anyone called someone's testimony a lie....I'm asking if anyone thought it, or another story regarding an interaction was a lie, and why they thought so. I've seen multiple threads in the christians only sections where the OPs have related stories of other members of their church that they felt were lies. Typically, the motive for them seemed self-serving...but I was curious about other stories that christians have heard that they questioned the truthfulness of and why they questioned it.
Frankly, I don't see what you're getting at with this comment. Is this some taboo topic amongst christians that I'm not supposed to ask about or, as christians, you aren't supposed to discuss? If so, why?...especially when you consider that we all know it's happening....
Also, what's an "open witness"?
You're asking me why I thought he lied? My best guess would be that he prayed to god for a sign, and whatever sign he got he probably felt was too commonplace, too everyday, too normal and would easily be considered as such instead of a sign from god by an audience.
Therefore, he decided to embellish the story. Perhaps what really happened is that he saw a hawk circling overhead and decided that was a sign from god. Maybe he decided it wasn't impressive enough... maybe he wanted his congregation to think he was the type of man god spoke to regularly... maybe his concern about making a big first impression on his new congregation stemmed from the fact that he was so young when he started as pastor there and he knew that not everyone agreed on hiring him. I don't really know why he lied... these are just guesses.
I don't think my cousin is "a stupid" as you so eloquently put it... but I don't think I'd list "smart" as one of his traits. He has another story about when he was 15-17 and he took his dog out for a walk in the evening. As he explained it, he was so moved by the beauty and stillness of nature that night... he decided to sit down on a curb and pray to god to thank him. As he sat there, eyes closed and head bowed in prayer... his dog ran away... never to be found again. So no, I don't think he's the brightest bulb in the box.
If you feel like sharing a personal story...and it's a lie you've told...go right ahead. If it's just some personal story, I'd rather you didn't as it doesn't seem to have much to do with the topic. If you're as offended by the OP as your tone suggests... maybe further participation isn't the way to go.
"Law is life itself and not the rules of its conduct. Evil is a transgression of law, not a violation of the rules of conduct pertaining to life, which is the law. Falsehood is not a matter of narration technique but something premeditated as a perversion of truth. The creation of new pictures out of old facts, the restatement of parental life in the lives of offspring these are the artistic triumphs of truth. The shadow of a hairs turning, premeditated for an untrue purpose, the slightest twisting or perversion of that which is principle these constitute falseness. But the fetish of factualized truth, fossilized truth, the iron band of so-called unchanging truth, holds one blindly in a closed circle of cold fact. One can be technically right as to fact and everlastingly wrong in the truth." UB 1955
Obama is a Christian, I think of his repeated lies about the ACA. To him the ends justify the means.
I also think the propensity to exaggerate when retelling stories such as the many exaggerations in the Old Testament.
I've never lied or exaggerated about my rebirth experience, I've retold it using the best way of explaining it that I could.
Not that I know what you're both thinking here, but I'll offer my perspective on juvenissun's comment.
I have had people come to me seeking help with trouble, and who claim the trouble was caused by demons. I was initially skeptical of the events they described, but one thing was very apparent: they needed help. So, to launch into a lecture on the lack of scientific evidence supporting the claims they had just made would have been wholly unproductive. They needed someone to believe something traumatic had happened to them, and they needed help with that trauma.
The discussion on demons could wait until the trauma was behind them. The truth is, neither I nor the person who asked for my help will really ever know what actually happened to them. There's a sense in which it doesn't matter ... unless one is absolutely determined to convince people that demons don't exist. I'm not trying to accomplish that.
I think you're wrong to call your cousin a liar. Unless you've caught him (with direct evidence) in other lies, and think him very untrustworthy, you're just speculating.
I had a squirrel jump onto my shoulder once while I was playing golf. I was sitting under a tree with my dad waiting for the golfers in front of us to tee off. And, people have convinced hawks to land on them - the sport of falconry had to start somehow.
The difference is that I didn't take what the squirrel did as a sign. It's just a funny story.
So, yes, I am concerned about those who turn Christianity into divination - who make God no better than a Ouija board. Why would God choose a hawk for a sign? Why wasn't it a sign that he shouldn't take the job? Those are the questions I would have - not whether the event occurred. Lutherans are considered boring because the pastor keeps hammering on the same themes over and over in his sermons. But he has to because people don't get it. The Bible is not a magic cook book for divining every silly little decision someone wants to make.
Yep. I think this is close to what juvenissun was trying to say.
The other factor I would note is an issue of language. Christians are socialized into a certain way of communicating with each other that unbelievers struggle to understand. That's not because of some special nature of the group. As an engineer, I have the same problem with non-engineers. And, when people step outside that norm of communication to try to translate for others, they sometimes do a poor job of it. Exaggeration is a common resort in such situations.
Don't you think that your cousin was making an unusual, even an unbelievable "story" to emphasize his experience? And you think that he does not feel people would see him the same way as you do?
Admit it, you do think your cousin did a foolish thing. And you think he does not know what he did is foolish. You think he lied in public. The lie is so obvious that all his congregation would know that immediately.
If what you said is a real event, then it would not be hard to investigate. Just try to talk to a church member who heard his witness and find out his response.
I believe no matter how hard you try, many atheists WILL still think you are lying to them.
Lie or not lie is not the problem. Believe or not believe IS the basic problem.
Anna the Ist "Wouldn't it be worth lying to someone if it convinced him to accept Jesus? Isn't that sin worth saving someone's soul?"
Resha Caner "The other factor I would note is an issue of language. Christians are socialized into a certain way of communicating with each other that unbelievers struggle to understand. That's not because of some special nature of the group. As an engineer, I have the same problem with non-engineers. And, when people step outside that norm of communication to try to translate for others, they sometimes do a poor job of it. Exaggeration is a common resort in such situations."
You're right in saying I was speculating...you may notice in the OP I was speaking about incidents in which we think the person telling the story is lying...not incidents where we know the person is lying. I'm aware that a lot of christians have trouble distinguishing between what they know and what they think/believe...so if you need me to elaborate on this point, just say so, I'll be glad to.
I watched a documentary on falconry once. It's a dying hunting method. Young falcons are either plucked from the nest shortly after hatching or before hatching... I'm about 99% certain that no one trains adult hawks for such purposes. The relationship between falconer and falcon has to be developed over years and years. Part of the difficulty of such training is why the practice died out.
I totally understand what you're saying about the demon example. Personally though, I'd be wary about helping someone in that situation if I were not a trained psychologist. Sometimes playing along with someone's delusion does more harm than good...and can reinforce the behavior that resulted in the delusion in the first place.
How kind of you to offer, but I understand the difference. I was speaking more to the conversation in process than the OP.
Yes, there have been several instances when I suspected people were lying. However, I don't recall an instance where it was related to religious testimony. It's just not a regular part of my community of faith to tell miracle stories. Most of the testimony I hear would be considered fairly mundane, I expect.
I stand corrected on my knowledge of falconry. However, I think the point stands. Keith pointed out that there are documented instances of a hawk landing on someone.
I never said I "played along with someone's delusion." Nor did I say that my efforts to provide help were absent professional medical assistance. In the moment, when a person is threatening suicide, a trained psychologist is not always readily at hand. Nor, as I have learned, will the person trust someone they don't know just because they have a diploma hanging on their wall. You do what you can until further help can be obtained - until the person is willing to accept that professional help. But I appreciate your kind advice.
It's possible. He didn't make some story about how a hawk landed on him and then winked at him before speaking in a deep booming voice that he should take the pastor position. He left it as something that, if you believe, sounds relatively plausible. He even picked a bird that if it were to happen...is probably the most likely bird to have it happen with. A majestic hawk, not a nervous little finch, not an ominous looking crow.
... (to be honest I've never heard of it happening apart from this incident) ...
I'm certainly not aware of the particular behaviors common to every denomination. I didn't expect every church to be the type where members share stories of their personal testimony, so I included the possibility of just casual stories of interactions with god. Maybe someone told you a story where they prayed for/about something and they got an answer from god. Upon hearing this story, you thought "No way did that happen.". You've never had an incident like that?
My opinion is such exaggeration (or outright lying!) is more a function of being human than being a Christian.
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