Lying for Marriage

[NaughtyNinja]

As weird as this seems I did not know what other category to place this matter in.
I am going back to Saudi Arabia soon and I intend on marrying a rather close friend of mind but the primary issue is that neither of us wish to identify ourselves as Christian to our families. We have been dead-cents on this and the only way to go about and approve our marriage is for both of us to lie to our families and say that we are Muslims.
This lady's family is practically demanding any marriage to be presided over by a shaykh and I just feel that it is wrong to lie in front of a person especially since a know this man.
Is it un-Christian of me to lie like this? I desire my marriage to be based godly principles according to the Bible and not based on deceit but I do not wish to stay in America and my Saudi citizenship has already been reclaimed and I shall want to be home even if it is not the ideal country for being a Christian.
Is it truly ok to lie like this and if I reject being a Muslim then there is possibility I cannot have my citizenship verified on account to rejecting the 'Islamiyyah Kingdom of Saudi Arabia'

 

[Inkachu]

No, it's not OK to lie. Jesus said if you deny Him before men, He will deny you before the Father (Matthew 10:33). Besides that, you don't want to begin your life as husband and wife on a foundation of lies and deceit. The truth always comes out sooner or later, and when it does, you risk losing your relationship with your families anyway. It's better to be honest now, and even if they disagree with your choice, they will have to respect your honesty. Sometimes getting married means leaving your family behind. But don't lose hope, there is no relationship in the world that God can't help reconcile with time, patience, love, and prayer. So the question is; is your future wife and your relationship with God more important to you than the approval of your family?

 

[Luther073082]

As weird as this seems I did not know what other category to place this matter in.
I am going back to Saudi Arabia soon and I intend on marrying a rather close friend of mind but the primary issue is that neither of us wish to identify ourselves as Christian to our families. We have been dead-cents on this and the only way to go about and approve our marriage is for both of us to lie to our families and say that we are Muslims.
This lady's family is practically demanding any marriage to be presided over by a shaykh and I just feel that it is wrong to lie in front of a person especially since a know this man.
Is it un-Christian of me to lie like this? I desire my marriage to be based godly principles according to the Bible and not based on deceit but I do not wish to stay in America and my Saudi citizenship has already been reclaimed and I shall want to be home even if it is not the ideal country for being a Christian.
Is it truly ok to lie like this and if I reject being a Muslim then there is possibility I cannot have my citizenship verified on account to rejecting the 'Islamiyyah Kingdom of Saudi Arabia'

I am concerned that may be martyred for this. I think I would say out of Saudi Arabia.

 

[Luther073082]

No, it's not OK to lie. Jesus said if you deny Him before men, He will deny you before the Father (Matthew 10:33). Besides that, you don't want to begin your life as husband and wife on a foundation of lies and deceit. The truth always comes out sooner or later, and when it does, you risk losing your relationship with your families anyway. It's better to be honest now, and even if they disagree with your choice, they will have to respect your honesty. Sometimes getting married means leaving your family behind. But don't lose hope, there is no relationship in the world that God can't help reconcile with time, patience, love, and prayer. So the question is; is your future wife and your relationship with God more important to you than the approval of your family?

It's more then a question of that, someone who was formerly a Muslim, who converts to a different religion in a place like that is placing his/her life in danger.

Personally I don't think he should go home as hard as it is to say. But it's not worth your life.

 

[NaughtyNinja]

No, it's not OK to lie. Jesus said if you deny Him before men, He will deny you before the Father (Matthew 10:33). Besides that, you don't want to begin your life as husband and wife on a foundation of lies and deceit. The truth always comes out sooner or later, and when it does, you risk losing your relationship with your families anyway. It's better to be honest now, and even if they disagree with your choice, they will have to respect your honesty. Sometimes getting married means leaving your family behind. But don't lose hope, there is no relationship in the world that God can't help reconcile with time, patience, love, and prayer. So the question is; is your future wife and your relationship with God more important to you than the approval of your family?

If I openly admit to being a non Muslim then that makes me disavows any rights and could involved me getting killed even if it is rare. We are lying to our families and not to each other.
Is honesty really worth giving up your life for?

 

[RDKirk]

You don't have a choice to stay in America, but have to return to Saudi Arabia. If you confess to your families that you and your fiancee are Christian and no longer Muslim, you both face death.

I could tell you from a viewpoint of ultra-righteousness that you and your fiancee should go home and face death in faith to Christ, and be martyrs.

But I can't claim ultra-rightousness even for myself--I have knowingly done wrong in my own life many times for so little--so how can I place a burden of death on you and your fiance?

I will say this: Christ will forgive you if you lie to preserve your lives, and He will honor you if you tell the truth.

 

[Inkachu]

If I openly admit to being a non Muslim then that makes me disavows any rights and could involved me getting killed even if it is rare. We are lying to our families and not to each other.
Is honesty really worth giving up your life for?

Your argument is with God and your own conscience, not with me. I'll just leave you with His Words (not my own). First, be reminded that to follow Christ is to be hated and persecuted, but you can still choose to stand firm. There are just as many promises to protect you from evil and harm to be found in the Bible. You can be assured that God is aware of your situation, and He is more powerful than any evil that would try to come against you or your wife. But will you choose to trust Him? Is He worth it to you?

Matthew 10:33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.

Mark 8:36 What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul?

Matthew 10: 21-23 "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who had endured to the end will be saved. But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes."

Luke 17:33 Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it.

Psalm 34:7 The angel of the LORD encamps around those who fear him, and he delivers them.

Psalm 91:4 He will cover you with his feathers, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart.

Psalm 27:1-3 The Lord is my light and my salvation—whom shall I fear? The Lord is the stronghold of my life—of whom shall I be afraid? When the wicked advance against me to devour me, it is my enemies and my foes
who will stumble and fall. Though an army besiege me, my heart will not fear; though war break out against me, even then I will be confident.


God bless.

 

[Inkachu]

You don't have a choice to stay in America, but have to return to Saudi Arabia. If you confess to your families that you and your fiancee are Christian and no longer Muslim, you both face death.

I could tell you from a viewpoint of ultra-righteousness that you and your fiancee should go home and face death in faith to Christ, and be martyrs.

But I can't claim ultra-rightousness even for myself--I have knowingly done wrong in my own life many times for so little--so how can I place a burden of death on you and your fiance?

I will say this: Christ will forgive you if you lie to preserve your lives, and He will honor you if you tell the truth.

I would think returning to the Middle East would be even more dangerous. If they're discovered there, persecution and/or death is almost a given. However, America is a HUGE country, and there are more than enough places to "disappear" quietly. I'd recommend moving to another state, not telling anyone where you're going, and making a new and very quiet life with your wife. Unless you think your family is going to literally track you down and hire a P.I. or something so they can kill you, you might hold a tentative correspondence with them via email (no cell phones, which can be traced) and hope that they eventually come to accept your decision. You'd have to avoid social networking, like Facebook, or posting in public areas, even like this forum, where your location might be given away by things you say publicly.

I don't think lying is the solution AT ALL. But you can still take reasonable precautions to keep yourself and your wife (and possibly future children) safe.

 

[RDKirk]

I would think returning to the Middle East would be even more dangerous. If they're discovered there, persecution and/or death is almost a given. However, America is a HUGE country, and there are more than enough places to "disappear" quietly. I'd recommend moving to another state, not telling anyone where you're going, and making a new and very quiet life with your wife. Unless you think your family is going to literally track you down and hire a P.I. or something so they can kill you, you might hold a tentative correspondence with them via email (no cell phones, which can be traced) and hope that they eventually come to accept your decision. You'd have to avoid social networking, like Facebook, or posting in public areas, even like this forum, where your location might be given away by things you say publicly.

I don't think lying is the solution AT ALL. But you can still take reasonable precautions to keep yourself and your wife (and possibly future children) safe.

My understanding of the OP is that he has no choice but to return to Saudi Arabia--I was restating that understanding.

 

[NaughtyNinja]

I would think returning to the Middle East would be even more dangerous. If they're discovered there, persecution and/or death is almost a given. However, America is a HUGE country, and there are more than enough places to "disappear" quietly. I'd recommend moving to another state, not telling anyone where you're going, and making a new and very quiet life with your wife. Unless you think your family is going to literally track you down and hire a P.I. or something so they can kill you, you might hold a tentative correspondence with them via email (no cell phones, which can be traced) and hope that they eventually come to accept your decision. You'd have to avoid social networking, like Facebook, or posting in public areas, even like this forum, where your location might be given away by things you say publicly.

I don't think lying is the solution AT ALL. But you can still take reasonable precautions to keep yourself and your wife (and possibly future children) safe.

Well my going to be wife is a Saudi citizen and the minute I step foot in Saudi Arabia my American citizenship is terminated since I cannot hold dual citizenship with Saudi Arabia. I do not remotely understand the concept of having my wife legalized as a citizen of the US nor do I wish to stay here any longer because I wish to help out in the church I know of in my home country.
It is not as if my family will kill me it is just that by openly confessing to be a Christian in front of a shaykh will make me an open target to anybody who knows me in Saudi Arabia. Being a Muslim also means being protected by defacto law.
Me nor my fiance(very new to this word) have been planning our marriage for over a year and if we do not marry by the end of this month we both view it as unnecessary to continue.

 

[Luther073082]

I will pray for you.

 

[CounselorForChrist]

I can't offer any advice only because it sounds really complex and dangerous to me. My wifes friend whos filipino is working in Saudi Arabia and shes a christian. She wants her american fiance to go there and marry her and have a christian wedding. I told her that will put a target on their backs if they are not careful. She should come here and marry instead.

 

[LinkH]

I don't think anyone here can give you the solution to your dilemma. You need to pray and find out what the right thing to do is.

I know there are some people who leave that religion, but still call themselves 'Submitters' and don't have a problem using that title, since they have 'submitted themselves...to the righteousness of God' as it says in Romans 10. I can't say I support that approach to things.

What I can say is that you should definitely not deny the Messiah. Don't listen to someone who tells you it's okay because you cannot be forgiven. Not all Christians believe in that, and probably that fact that many did not was one of the reasons so many believers in the Roman empire were martyred. They didn't want to deny the Lord. Willful, intentional, sin is not something to play around with. As far as lies goes, that is one whopper of a lie that you don't want to have. You don't know how long you will live and you don't want the last thing you do to be to deny Christ, and have Him deny you before the Father.

|slam allows their adherants to deny their religion to save their lives, based on hadith. But Christianity does not.

So what are your options?

Bold Option
Go stand before your family and confess that you are a follower of Jesus and that you have been baptized.

Possible negative scenarios-- family cuts you off, family kills you, authorities kill you, you go to jail.

Possible positive scenarios-- in spite of the negative stuff, your family sees your bold witness and it sows seeds that results in the harvest of their souls. They could just kind of disassociate with you and leave you alone, too.

You could try the same scenario at a big wedding ceremony in front of the sheik and both you and your fiancee could face the same problem.

Less Bold Options
Tell your families over the phone that you believe in Jesus now and you both have been baptized.

You could also clear up opportunities for scandal if your wife is from there, too, by wiring her parents the bride price and doing anything else you need according to law and custom so they can't accuse you of stealing your wife or fornicating. You don't want them saying he turned Christian and then he stole my daughter or he's fornicating with her or any of that stuff. Then you could tell them.

You could also come up with a good reason to get familial permission to get married in the US or some other country, then spring the news on them.

You don't have to stick your neck on the martyrs chopping block unless God leads you in that direction. Fleeing persecution isn't forbidden. Jesus sent the apostles out and told them that if they persecute you in one city, to flee into the next.

Going along with some aspects of it
Can you get married by a sheik without violating your faith? I don't know |slamic wedding customs or customs from your area, so I don't know. Do you have to state an |slamic declaration of belief? Doesn't Shariyah basically just require a contract agreed upon by the appropriate parties?
If you don't have to make any statements about faith, and you see a sheik as an elder and community leader, I don't see that as wrong. In scripture, marriages were acknowledgements between families, and if you think you need a preacher or priest to unite you for conscience sake, you could do that secretly before you left and hold off on sleeping with each other until it's official with the family.

But if your conscience tells you that's a sin, it's a sin for you and don't do it.

What type of life do you envision as a Christian in your home country? Do you plan to go to the mosque and change the words of your prayer? I think that's overdoing it with contextualization. Messianic Judaism makes sense because God revealed the faith of Abraham, and Jesus, the apostles, and the earliest believers were Jews. Do you want to be a very secretive believer over there underground? How will you deal with people treating you poorly if you don't go with them to prayer or on Friday? At some people you will either have to justify not joining in religious activities, justify joining in, or tell people you interact with about your beliefs. If you go home, you will have to face this.

Btw, do you have to show the officials there your US passport? if they don't recognize dual citizenship and don't take your passport from you (which you might be able to sneak to yourself in the mail) how will your going there invalidate your passport on the US end? They may declare your US citizenship revoked, but that doesn't mean the US will.

 

[NaughtyNinja]

Going along with some aspects of it
Can you get married by a sheik without violating your faith? I don't know |slamic wedding customs or customs from your area, so I don't know. Do you have to state an |slamic declaration of belief? Doesn't Shariyah basically just require a contract agreed upon by the appropriate parties?
If you don't have to make any statements about faith, and you see a sheik as an elder and community leader, I don't see that as wrong. In scripture, marriages were acknowledgements between families, and if you think you need a preacher or priest to unite you for conscience sake, you could do that secretly before you left and hold off on sleeping with each other until it's official with the family.

It is not an Islamic wedding technically. Her parents just want a shaykh to confirm the wedding as a witness especially since he knows me.
The only declaration in regards to Islam I must state are on my citizenship and when I did that I actually was a Muslim currently.
The contract between the two parties must be done and a certain number of witnesses and one of in which is going to be a shaykh. This shaykh taught me when I was young and is deemed a family friend on both parties so he was chosen as a neutral witness.
But me and her wanted our real wedding to be done by the closest to a priest that we have who sort runs the structure we call a church.

What type of life do you envision as a Christian in your home country? Do you plan to go to the mosque and change the words of your prayer? I think that's overdoing it with contextualization. Messianic Judaism makes sense because God revealed the faith of Abraham, and Jesus, the apostles, and the earliest believers were Jews. Do you want to be a very secretive believer over there underground? How will you deal with people treating you poorly if you don't go with them to prayer or on Friday? At some people you will either have to justify not joining in religious activities, justify joining in, or tell people you interact with about your beliefs. If you go home, you will have to face this.

I envisioned my life as peaceful and meaningful since I try to promote the words of Jesis Christ by using the internet. No need for details but my plan is brilliant and I am quite proud of it .
I am not required to go to a mosque even though there is one on every street literale. It does tend to make one look bad considering there is little excuse in not being present but they do not intwine themselfs with private affairs, usually.
I can assure you jumu'ah friday salat is not as mandatory as you think it is. Many in my own family have never bothered going. In Saudi Arabia you are Muslim by nationality and not by actions, no other Islamiy'yah country is like this.

Btw, do you have to show the officials there your US passport? if they don't recognize dual citizenship and don't take your passport from you (which you might be able to sneak to yourself in the mail) how will your going there invalidate your passport on the US end? They may declare your US citizenship revoked, but that doesn't mean the US will.

USA Passport is confiscated and although I may loose the passport I must contact an embassy to reaffirm my US citizenship and that is not an immediate process nor am I aware of its specifics. I obtained Saudi Arabian citizenship by birthright because of my father so immediately stepping into Saudi Arabia means my citizenship is not valid until I relinquish my US passport.

 

[RDKirk]

What I can say is that you should definitely not deny the Messiah. Don't listen to someone who tells you it's okay because you cannot be forgiven.

Do you recall Peter denying Jesus three times?

It's pretty easy to tell someone to risk death while sitting in the US. But I've been to Saudi Arabia.

 

[Luther073082]

Do you recall Peter denying Jesus three times?

It's pretty easy to tell someone to risk death while sitting in the US. But I've been to Saudi Arabia.

Agreed, as much as I want to say that you should proclaim Christ, at the same time it's really easy to say that when you are in a country where you are not likely to be killed for doing it.

Personally I think he should just stay in the west and never return. That's a tough situation but it's the only solution that allows him to be openly Christian but at the same time safe from a violent death.

 

[LinkH]

Do you recall Peter denying Jesus three times?

It's pretty easy to tell someone to risk death while sitting in the US. But I've been to Saudi Arabia.

And that was probably the most shameful even of Peter's life, something he probably wished he could have taken back, and he had to live it down. All four gospels record it. John followed from afar off, and apparently didn't deny him, although he didn't stick close like he wish he should have.

But you know what, from what we know of tradition, neither Peter or John denied their faith to save their lives. They say Peter was crucified upside down. They say they boiled John in oil, but it didn't kill him.

I lived in a majority Muslim nation for many years. Most of the time it felt pretty safe about religion, though I was there during some riots, too, where if you went out there was a possibility you could lose your life if you weren't Muslim if you went to the wrong place, according to rumors. A lot of that sort of thing, and forced circumcisions, were going on in other parts of the country for a while. But I certainly resolved not to deny my faith in Jesus. Some things are worth more than staying alive another day.

I heard a testimony from a man who had his head chopped 75 percent off, and the cut was on the back side of the neck, for holding firm to his faith. He went to the hospital, they prayed for him, and he actually recovered and everything healed up. He still had the scar.

 

[LinkH]

Ninja,

Have you thought about keeping your US passport and just getting a job in Saudi? If you worked in the Aramco compound, being a Christian might not be a problem. Would your Saudi background make it hard for you to be accepted as a citizen? Btw, if you will be ministering online, why do it in country.

 

[ash777]

This topic is really humbling, considering the challenges that you are facing. Yahshua waited for the right time for His ministry and their family even fled from persecution. Do not deny Yahshua or lie about your faith, but pray for the right time to reveal to your family whether it is before or after the marriage.

Blessed is that man that maketh Yahweh his trust, and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies. Many, O Yahweh my Elohim, are thy wonderful works which thou hast done, and thy thoughts which are toward us: they cannot be reckoned up in order unto thee: if I would declare and speak of them, they are more than can be numbered.
Psalms 40:4-5

 

[truthhopejustice]

This is ridiculous. NO you don't have to endanger yourselves by telling everyone you are Christian. Jesus charged people not to tell people that He was the messiah at times in order to avoid dying before His time. In doing this he showed us that we are also to value our lives and to ensure that we don't die prematurely either. He also at times told people not to tell about miracles that happened. He withheld information often, leaving the disciples to sit and talk and try to figure out what He meant. It is NOT a sin to withhold this information. It is NOT denying Christ. When you go back home, act as though you are a Muslim and don't give people a reason to think you are Christian and there is no reason why they'd think that.

The Holy Spirit will show you if there is an opportunity to tell someone about your faith. You may be able to witness to a few people discreetly, but do it intelligently and BE CAREFUL. Be wise as serpents as well as harmless as doves, as the text says.