Lutherans and Salvation

[5aret]

So, you could worship a different God, Murder someone, etc.. and get away with it? Well, in the Catholic faith, we obey the 10 commandements. This is because this is what Jesus tells us to do when the man asked "how do you obtain salvation?" and Jesus said "follow the commandments." He then went on to explain the 2 greatest commandments, based off of the 10 commandements. Now if they were abolished, why would Jesus say that?

5aret

 

[Qoheleth]

5aret

The short answer is, yes, Lutherans are required and do uphold and obey the Lord's commands, Its just the timid way of Lutherans to avoid any talk of the law or works being part of salvation. The fact is, one cannot separate Faith and works or being obedient to Christ and His commands.

Q

 

[Victrixa]

Good works are a fruit of true faith. A true Christian (one by faith and not by name only) will, because of the Holy Spirit's working in him/her, do good works as a result of his/her faith.

Jesus' commands (including the order to obey the 10 commandments) will be a natural thing for a true Christians to follow as God's nature through the working of the Holy Spirit will be transforming the Christian.

 

[Victrixa]

Jesus and the rich young man: the rich young man had to repent for putting his riches above God. But he decided against repenting for his idolatry and putting God first and went on to continue in his lifestyle. He did obey God's commandments, but that was only religiously, not because his heart had been transformed by the Holy Spirit through faith. God must be first in our lives and any type of good work, including obeying God's commands, must be a fruit of our faith. Doing good works like that ain't gonna save ya.

 

[5aret]

ok, I get it.

 

[C.F.W. Walther]

We sin daily and we are forgiven daily. We'd be a paranoid wreck if we tried to uphold all the old and new testament laws. As stated before we forget God's grace and mercy to us under the new covenent. We keep his commandments because we love Him as He first loved us. If we don't keep the commandments daily He is faithfull and just to forgive. The Hold Spirit convicts us when we are in God's grace so we are constantly reminded of His laws and presents. But one caveat, He forgives our sins, but as Magdelene, we should go and sin no more. This is Paul's admonition about ultra sinning so his grace abounds. Luther even says "let your sins be strong". Most Lutherans are not caught up in the daily struggle of keeping commandments because GOd gives us peace. He says "I give your peace not of this world" which is the security in knowing that with his grace we are free. Sometimes it's hard to believe that God is that loving. We are allways looking for the reason why He is doing it like if He does us a favor we need to return it. That kind of reasoning would totally eradicate GRACE.

 

[5aret]

Ok, so you are saved through faith, and then works just flow out?

 

[Qoheleth]

Jesus and the rich young man: the rich young man had to repent for putting his riches above God.

Good point, Faith is lived throughout in a constant state of penitence. Without a repentant life, we have no faith.

God must be first in our lives and any type of good work, including obeying God's commands, must be a fruit of our faith. Doing good works like that ain't gonna save ya.

I defer to the quote below of Martin Luther;

"Faith is a living, bold trust in God's grace, so certain of
God's favor that it would risk death a thousand times trusting in it.
Such confidence and knowledge of God's grace makes you happy,
joyful and bold in your relationship to God and all creatures. The
Holy Spirit makes this happen through faith. Because of it, you
freely, willingly and joyfully do good to everyone, serve
everyone, suffer all kinds of things, love and praise the God who
has shown you such grace. Thus, it is just as impossible to
separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from
fire!"
("An Introduction to St. Paul's Letter to the Romans," Martin Luther)


[font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]

[/font]Most Lutherans are not caught up in the daily struggle of keeping commandments because GOd gives us peace. He says "I give your peace not of this world" which is the security in knowing that with his grace we are free.[font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]

This sounds like cheap grace according to the scriptures and the witness of the church throughout the ages. We must take up our cross, i.e. obey the commandments of our Lord and even suffer martyrdom if we are so blessed
[/font]
Faith must be lived, then understood. Faith is not about intellectual assent, it must be put into action by grace to be alive and most especially by prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

Q

 

[MORTANIUS]

Ok, so you are saved through faith, and then works just flow out?

Works onto themselves are just works.

If done for the glorification of God Almighty, then such works serve the Lord, and not ourselves.

Basically yes, through faith, works occur and are a benefit to our fellow Christians and especially to God, but never ourselves.

We cannot glorify ourselves in works. God glorifies those who glorify Him.

 

[LilLamb219]

So, you could worship a different God, Murder someone, etc.. and get away with it?

Who said that?

Without faith in the triune God one is not saved and does not "get away" with anything.

 

[LilLamb219]

Also, when you ask if something is "required", I should have asked, Required for WHAT?

 

[5aret]

What I meant was that according to someone here, they said that the 10 commandements were ablolished by Jesus. Thats what I meant.

 

[Protoevangel]

What I meant was that according to someone here, they said that the 10 commandements were ablolished by Jesus. Thats what I meant.

I did not see anyone say that the Ten Commandments were abolished. Did I miss something?

 

[Jim47]

Well, in the Catholic faith, we obey the 10 commandements. This is because this is what Jesus tells us to do when the man asked "how do you obtain salvation?" and Jesus said "follow the commandments." He then went on to explain the 2 greatest commandments, based off of the 10 commandements. Now if they were abolished, why would Jesus say that?

5aret

Do you actually believe that you keep the commandments and commit "no sin"?????????? According to the bible this is impossible.



Rom 7:7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."[2]

Rom 7:8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead.

Rom 7:9 Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.

Rom 7:10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.

Rom 7:11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.

Rom 7:12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

Rom 7:13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

Rom 7:14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.

Rom 7:15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.

Rom 7:16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.

Rom 7:17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.

Rom 7:18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[3] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

Rom 7:19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do-this I keep on doing.

Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

Rom 7:21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me.

Rom 7:22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law;

Rom 7:23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.

Rom 7:24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?

Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God-through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

 

[SPALATIN]

What I meant was that according to someone here, they said that the 10 commandements were ablolished by Jesus. Thats what I meant.

I certainly was not the one to say that, but I did say that we as Gentiles were not given the 10 commandments as were the Jews in the Old Testament. Paul stated that the Gentiles did not have the law as the Jews did, but they followed the precepts of a law similar to it so did not have to be subject to the law. The law was fulfilled by Christ, not abolished.

 

[BigNorsk]

Than why did Jesus tell us to follow the commandments? The 2 great commandments were based off of the 10 origional.

That statement is backwards, the Ten Commandments are based off the 2.

Matthew 22:36-40 NET
(36) "Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?"
(37) Jesus said to him, " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'
(38) This is the first and greatest commandment.
(39) The second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
(40) All the law and the prophets depend on these two commandments."

The word translated as depend would mean literally to hang from. And it worthwhile to note that not only the law but also the prophets hang from the love of God and of man.

Marv

 

[5aret]

Ok, fine. Abolished, fufilled, "nailed on the cross", same thing to me. Even if we don't have to obey them, they are a guideline on which what God expected of the Jews. I think God at least expects the same thing from us if we are true disciples of Christ.

 

[Protoevangel]

Ok, fine. Abolished, fufilled, "nailed on the cross", same thing to me. Even if we don't have to obey them, they are a guideline on which what God expected of the Jews. I think God at least expects the same thing from us if we are true disciples of Christ.

Then your argument is with Jesus Himself:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
Matthew 5:16

You see, we are required to follow the Law. But not for our Justification. Indeed, works do follow after faith, but those works do not cause or even contribute to our Salvation. Doing the works of the Law to merit anything from God is to rebel against God, and try to place Him in your debt, i.e., to reject Christ and make Him of no benefit to you. True faith does the works of the Law from gratitude, not for merit.

 

[ByzantineDixie]

The Orthodox have, as part of the morning prayers, a prayer which speaks well to this and sounds remarkably Lutheran:

My most merciful and all-merciful God, Lord Jesus Christ, through Thy great love Thou didst come down and take flesh to save all. And again, O Saviour, save me by Thy grace, I pray Thee, for if Thou shouldst save me for my works, this would not be grace or a gift, but rather a duty. Indeed, in Thy infinite compassion and unspeakable mercy, Thou O my Christ hast said: Whoever believes in Me shall live and never see death. If faith in Thee saves the desperate, save me, for Thou art my God and Creator. Impute my faith instead of deeds, O my God, for Thou wilt find no deeds which could justify me, but may my faith suffice for all my deeds. May it answer for and acquit me, and may it make me a partaker of Thy eternal glory.

 

[Qoheleth]

but those works do not cause or even contribute to our Salvation

How about those works contribute to but do not merit our salvation??

Q