Lutherans and Salvation

[5aret]

So, If you did not do any works, you would still go to heaven?

 

[ByzantineDixie]

So, If you did not do any works, you would still go to heaven?

Not impossible (thinking of the thief on the cross here) but I would suspect highly unlikely.

I just visited another forum and found this...thought it might be of interest here.

In his Convention Essays, C.F.W. Walther says this:
Now then, Gerhard continues: “After we have been reborn through the Holy Spirit, we are led in such a way as to also become active, that is, the will of man operates not through the powers given by nature, but rather through the power given by the grace of the Holy Spirit, and then is an active, cooperative instrument.”

This also is true: Whoever has not arrived at this, namely to work with the Holy Spirit, is not a Christian. Whoever bases his Christianity on occasionally attending Church and there letting God’s Word impress him, awaken him, frighten or comfort him, and then gets up and leaves, remaining essentially unchanged – he is not a Christian. A Christian is one who through God’s Word and Spirit has been so transformed that he himself now works together with God in all spiritual good; for only then will God cooperate. It must not be forgotten that no one can ever work together with God through his own natural power, but only through the Spirit and the power he has received in his conversion. (59, 60)

 

[SPALATIN]

Ok, fine. Abolished, fufilled, "nailed on the cross", same thing to me. Even if we don't have to obey them, they are a guideline on which what God expected of the Jews. I think God at least expects the same thing from us if we are true disciples of Christ.

They were actually more of a guideline. It was for the chosen people the way to obtain salvation. If you kept the law perfectly you were saved, but since that is an impossibility because of sin it became a reflection how sinful we really are. The law shows us our imperfection.

The law was not abolished by Christ, but fulfilled. He is the only one who was as a human able to keep it all. By fulfilling the law he proved that it could be done with the help of God. Jesus was God and had the ability of God to keep it.

It is not a matter of strict obedience on our part, but the Empowerment of the very God in our lives to help us keep those commandments. The commandments themselves don't deliver us, but our faith in him as our Lord and Savior to do this.

 

[filosofer]

They were actually more of a guideline. It was for the chosen people the way to obtain salvation. If you kept the law perfectly you were saved, but since that is an impossibility because of sin it became a reflection how sinful we really are. The law shows us our imperfection.

If you are referring to the 10 commandments in Exodus 20, notice that they are preceded by the Gospel (20:1-2):

And God spoke all these words, saying, "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

And the form of the Hebrew verb is taken as indicative, not imperative. In other words, they are descriptive of what the people of God are like ("God's people will have no other gods... God's people will not take the name of the LORD in vain... God's people will remember the Sabbath..."). Only as they failed to demonstrate how God's people live, did the commandments then become the accusing and condemning word of God.

And just to be clear the people in the OT were saved the same way we are saved: by faith - that is the whole point of what Paul wrote in Romans 4 and Galatians 3, and the writer of Hebrews in chapter 11.

The law was not abolished by Christ, but fulfilled. He is the only one who was as a human able to keep it all. By fulfilling the law he proved that it could be done with the help of God. Jesus was God and had the ability of God to keep it.

There is more involved than the ability to keep the Law. We can't even do that, we do not have the ability: Romans 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot.

It is not a matter of strict obedience on our part, but the Empowerment of the very God in our lives to help us keep those commandments. The commandments themselves don't deliver us, but our faith in him as our Lord and Savior to do this.

And the ultimate difference with the RCC involves this tension. According to RCC teaching it is the grace that empowers the person to do the good works, which then allows God to count the person worthy. Whereas we say that God declares us worthy because of Christ's good works (active obedience) and his payment for our sins (passive obedience), which constitutes Christ's righteousness, and which is credited to our account, which faith receives. Our good works reflect our faith and proceed from it. In the RCC teaching faith and good works contribute to receiving salvation.

 

[5aret]

Ok, I think I get it all...

 

[Protoevangel]

How about those works contribute to but do not merit our salvation??

Q

If somehow you do not mean that in a cause-effect way, then maybe. But generally I can't buy "contribute to" either, it indicates a causality relationship.

"We believe, teach, and confess that, although the contrition that precedes, and the good works that follow, do not belong to the article of justification before God, yet one is not to imagine a faith of such a kind as can exist and abide with, and alongside of, a wicked intention to sin and to act against the conscience. But after man has been justified by faith, then a true living faith worketh by love, Gal. 5, 6, so that thus good works always follow justifying faith, and are surely found with it, if it be true and living; for it never is alone, but always has with it love and hope."
Epitome of the Formula of Concord
III. The Righteousness of Faith Before God:11

"Therefore we reject and condemn all the following errors:"
"That believers are justified before God and saved jointly by the imputed righteousness of Christ and by the new obedience begun in them, or in part by the imputation of Christ's righteousness, but in part also by the new obedience begun in them."
Epitome of the Formula of Concord
III. The Righteousness of Faith Before God:12,21

"We believe, teach, and confess also that good works should be entirely excluded, just as well in the question concerning salvation as in the article of justification before God, as the apostle testifies with clear words, when he writes as follows: Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, saying, Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin, Rom. 4, 6ff And again: By grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast, Eph. 2, 8. 9."
Epitome of the Formula of Concord
IV. Good Works:7

 

[5aret]

So there is a connection between works and faith?

 

[SPALATIN]

So there is a connection between works and faith?

Yes! but it is faith and Love that begets works and not vice versa.

 

[5aret]

In the Catholic Faith, we believe that works without faith is dead and faith without works is also dead.

 

[SPALATIN]

In the Catholic Faith, we believe that works without faith is dead and faith without works is also dead.

But can works alone beget faith? I don't think so.

 

[5aret]

If someone does works and has no faith, they do not have salvation.

 

[Protoevangel]

I suppose the difference is how we see the relationship between faith, justification and works. For the Lutheran, everything is an outpouring of the gift from God called faith.

Faith + Works = Justification
This is the false model of Salvation that the Lutheran would reject.

Faith = Justification + Works
This is closer to the way the Lutheran understand the relationship: we are given faith by God, which causes our Justification, and will also lead to the doing of works in gratitude. If there are no works, then that which is prior to works is missing; the faith is dead.

 

[5aret]

Well, if someone did not do any works in either Catholic or Lutheran churchs, you would have no salvation either way, right?

 

[Protoevangel]

Well, if someone did not do any works in either Catholic or Lutheran churchs, you would have no salvation either way, right?

While I am no one to be judging another's Salvation (similar to Romans 14:4), things do not look to good.

Now, the question comes up, 5aret, what kinds of works do you require to see someone perform before you will consider him or her "saved"?

 

[5aret]

While I am no one to be judging another's Salvation (similar to Romans 14:4), things do not look to good.

Now, the question comes up, 5aret, what kinds of works do you require to see someone perform before you will consider him or her "saved"?

As Catholics, we believe that works must happen in a state of Grace. This means that you must first believe in Christ as your personal lord and savior, and than do good works not to nessasarily get to heaven, but just do good works to serve and love God. Good works are anything from obeying God, to praying ,to taking the Eucharist. In order to be saved you would have to accept Jesus as you lord and savior, repent from your sins, and try to have Jesus take a hold of your life, and try to serve and obey God. (by doing good works.)

 

[BigNorsk]

In order to be saved you would have to accept Jesus as you lord and savior, repent from your sins, and try to have Jesus take a hold of your life, and try to serve and obey God. (by doing good works.)

The difference would be that what you need to do to be saved is literally nothing. It is God's grace not something we do. Everything else you speak of flows from the result of one being saved, but has nothing to do with whether one is saved. Salvation is not a process.

One cannot produce one' salvation, one cannot even cooperate with one's salvation.

The only thing that man can do is reject salvation.

There is nothing we can do to gain salvation, it is of the pure grace of God. It is Christ's merit, not our own that produces salvation.

When we hear the gospel, the Holy Spirit kindles faith in us. This faith lay's hold of the pure grace of God in Christ, and this, and this alone saves or justifies a person.

This saving grace produces good works, but the works do not in any way produce or contribute to one's salvation. To speak of good works and salvation at the same time tends just to confuse the issue. It starts out with good works comes from God's grace that produces our salvation, then it flows to such works will always be present, then to you better look to your works to see if you are saved, to you better be doing good works to prove your salvation. You end up right back under a law that you do good works in order to earn your salvation, which is all wrong.

The only good works required for salvation are Christ's.

Marv

 

[5aret]

Yes, I agree with you fully. But if someone is not doing good works and only bad works, is that a sign of his or her belief slipping away?

 

[Qoheleth]

Faith = Justification + Works

This is closer to the way the Lutheran understand the relationship: we are given faith by God, which causes our Justification, and will also lead to the doing of works in gratitude. If there are no works, then that which is prior to works is missing; the faith is dead.

Never have been crazy about equations. I'd rather say that faith embraces God's justification of us - his vindication of His promises to us by Christ's death and resurrection - and the person who has this faith does all manner of good works. Further, since the very nature of the salvation offered to us is participation in the age to come already in this age (where love is, where forgiveness reigns, where kindness rules, where prayer is constant and thanksgiving and repentence is unending), to speak of faith "saving" but not actually bringing us to participate in that future life (no matter how weakly) is to speak utter nonsense.

Q

 

[5aret]

So someone could be saved without works but only faith?

 

[SPALATIN]

So someone could be saved without works but only faith?

8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Scripture says it clearly.