Lutheranism and predestination

[Major1]

Hey there. As I understand it Lutherans believe in single predestination, that is, they believe that God has chosen people to be saved but hasn't chosen who's damned. They also believe that Jesus died for the sins of everyone, not just some people. How is it possible for those who are not predestined to be saved it they aren't the predestined? They'd have to work towards it, which means that Lutheran theology is self contradictory right? Do those that aren't predestined have a chance of being saved? Please explain this to me, and don't give me some answer about how this isn't supposed to make sense or you just need to trust contradicting Scripture, because I'm not buying it

I would say to you that of all the Bible doctrines to choose to understand you have picked the most difficult.

If you have freewill, how can God be sovereign over your life? If God has planned your salvation and planned to save you, predetermined to call you, and chose you to before earth existed, how can you still have freewill?

Freewill and God’s sovereignty are not opposed to each other but run parallel with one other. Imagine that you are a slave on a ship. You are chained to the deck below. It is determined that you row for the captain of this ship. You have no choice but to be chained to this ship. This is like God’s sovereignty. But even here you have freewill. You are free to row or not to row. If you do not row you choose to receive beatings by the quartermaster, but if you row, you choose not to be beaten. You might even chose to break free of the ship by escaping your chains, but God’s sovereignty is not diminished.
What Does the Bible Teach about Free Will and Predestination?

God’s sovereignty does not diminish man’s freewill. God never twists anyone’s arm into heaven. God is all knowing of the past, present, and future. He alone knows what we will do.

 

[Mark Quayle]

What I think we keep missing, on this subject and others having to do with God's nature and doings, is that God is so far above us that we can't really use our concepts or even our logic to comprehensively put a handle on what and how he does what he does. God is Self-Existent Creator, which means even our use of his terminology doesn't do the job.

Yet, "[God] has put eternity into the hearts of men, yet they can't understand what he has done from beginning to end."

By the way, I am by default Reformed, I don't say Calvinist, because of biased thoughts that come to people's minds. I believed what I believe long before I found out the old dudes agree with me.

When we say, for example, that God "wants" or "hates" or even "foresees" we don't know what we are talking about. I have come to conclude that God foreseeing, is pretty much the same as God forecausing, as it is all in his control, and because to him, I think, it is already accomplished fact, but how he does that I don't have a clue, and how he can be all times at once, yet work within time I don't know. But I certainly can't say he can't do that.

 

[roman2819]

What I think we keep missing, on this subject and others having to do with God's nature and doings, is that God is so far above us that we can't really use our concepts or even our logic to comprehensively put a handle on what and how he does what he does. God is Self-Existent Creator, which means even our use of his terminology doesn't do the job.

Yet, "[God] has put eternity into the hearts of men, yet they can't understand what he has done from beginning to end."

By the way, I am by default Reformed, I don't say Calvinist, because of biased thoughts that come to people's minds. I believed what I believe long before I found out the old dudes agree with me.

When we say, for example, that God "wants" or "hates" or even "foresees" we don't know what we are talking about. I have come to conclude that God foreseeing, is pretty much the same as God forecausing, as it is all in his control, and because to him, I think, it is already accomplished fact, but how he does that I don't have a clue, and how he can be all times at once, yet work within time I don't know. But I certainly can't say he can't do that.

I agreed that most of the time, "we can't really use our concepts or even our logic to comprehensively put a handle on what and how he does what he does. ... our use of his terminology doesn't do the job." Bible tells us to imitate God in some ways, like being forgiving, practise justice and help the needy.

But when it comes to God's will and how God answer prayer, there is a huge gap between what many Christians think and how what the Scripture is saying. Biblically, "God's will" does NOT mean that he explicitly has a will regarding how we should pray and what we plan. Many believers miss the spirit of the words and wonder why prayer don't work the way they (mis)interpret His Word.

I explain it all in the book "Understanding prayer faith and God's Will"

 

[roman2819]

I would say to you that of all the Bible doctrines to choose to understand you have picked the most difficult.

If you have freewill, how can God be sovereign over your life? If God has planned your salvation and planned to save you, predetermined to call you, and chose you to before earth existed, how can you still have freewill?

Freewill and God’s sovereignty are not opposed to each other but run parallel with one other. Imagine that you are a slave on a ship. You are chained to the deck below. It is determined that you row for the captain of this ship. You have no choice but to be chained to this ship. This is like God’s sovereignty. But even here you have freewill. You are free to row or not to row. If you do not row you choose to receive beatings by the quartermaster, but if you row, you choose not to be beaten. You might even chose to break free of the ship by escaping your chains, but God’s sovereignty is not diminished.
What Does the Bible Teach about Free Will and Predestination?

God’s sovereignty does not diminish man’s freewill. God never twists anyone’s arm into heaven. God is all knowing of the past, present, and future. He alone knows what we will do.

I am afraid you misinterpret that "God choose us before the foundation of the earth" [Ephesians 1] . The Scripture was NOT saying God choose individuals like Tom or Susan before the foundation of the earth.

In Ephesians 1,2 ,3, Paul was saying :

Way back, even before the foundation of the earth, God foreknew that He would choose the Jews to be His nation and people, and later, He would also offer redemption to the Gentiles. God had pre-planned or predestine all this to unite both Jews and Gentiles in Christ Jesus.

The above is explained in 70 verses from Ephesians 1,2,3. Note how Paul used the words "BOTH people" or "BOTH Jews and Gentiles" 3 times as he explained how Jesus brought the two peoples together. Note also he said "you Gentiles" which means he was not referring to individual predestination. If one take time to digest the contents and context, you will see that none of this is about single or double predestination at all.

Why did Paul said "before the foundation of the earth"? It was to answer the Jews who claimed that they were there first, and because Israel rejected Christ, then God decided to offer redemption to the Gentiles at the eleventh hour, so to speak; so the Gentiles were second class (the Jewish Christians probably said). However, the apostle said that way, way back, God had planned to reach out to Gentiles -- as early as you can think of, even before earth was made -- that is how EARLY God had predestine or preplanned.

Wanting to put the Jews and Gentiles on a level playing field, Paul spent much effort to explain that the Gentiles are receiving a great eternal inheritance and the same Holy Spirit from God. The Gentiles' redemption are no less than the Jews.

It is meaningful to read and appreciate context.

 

[ubicaritas]

OK, this conversation has gone from discussing Lutheran views of predistination to introducing Reformed categories like "sovereignty" that don't even apply to Lutheranism, at least not with the same implications.

No one can really understand Lutheranism unless they first are willing to admit there is another Reformation-era church and it isn't simply a copy of the Reformed church with a few peculiar doctrines.

 

[roman2819]

I'm a Lutheran Seminary student LCMS and a former Calvinist so I've dealt with these questions.

Yes, Lutherans believe in single predestination. We do not teach double predestination because we do not see it in scripture. It is constructed by reason. "Since some are predestined to heaven reason dictates that some are chosen for damnation." For Lutherans what is important for us is that we only speak were scripture speaks so we reject the idea the idea of double predestination in that it attempts to speak where God has not.

You are correct that we believe deny limited atonement. I think it would be best to refer to the Lutheran view as Universal Atonement. Which needs to be distinguished from the Unlimited Atonement of Arminians. Calvinists teach that Christ died only for the elect. Arminians teach that he died to make salvation possible for anyone who believes. Lutherans believe that Christ objectively died for the sins of the whole world. That there is no one on this planet we cannot say Christ has not atoned for. It is an objective fact.

Now here is where I'm sure you will have a problem. Lutherans hold to the idea of paradox. See at the heart of your question is the uestion "Why are some saved and others not? you see the calvinist answer to that question is because of Gods choice. The Arminian says Mans free will. The Lutherans say "That is actually two questions, why are some saved? by 100% Gods grace. Why are some not saved and others not? It is 100% man's fault. Now you say that makes NO sence. Your absolutly right it makes no sense because it's not supposed to. See when other groups find rough edges and inconsistencies in scripture they try to smooth them out and make them palatable to the mind. When Lutherans are faced with the same thing we leave it alone, we do not try to rationalize it we believe exactly what the bible says, even when paradoxical. God has not revealed to us exactly how this works so we do not try peak up Gods pant leg.

Reformed theology is rational but not biblical, Lutheran theology is not biblical but not rational.

You ask if the predestined have a choice in being saved, the thing is is that we have no free will to choose God unless he gives us faith. We are saved by grace alone through faith alone by Christ alone.

In the Scripture, "He choose us before the foundation of time" does not mean that God choose individuals. The following is predestination in biblical context:

Way back, even before the foundation of the earth, God foreknew that He would choose the Jews to be His nation and people, and later, He would also offer redemption to the Gentiles. God had pre-planned or predestine all this to unite both Jews and Gentiles in Christ Jesus.

The above is explained in 70 verses from Ephesians 1,2,3. Note how Paul used the words "BOTH people" or "BOTH Jews and Gentiles" 3 times as he explained how Jesus brought the two peoples together. Note also he said "you Gentiles" which means he was not referring to individual predestination. If one take time to digest the contents and context, you will see that none of this is about single or double predestination at all.

Why did Paul said "before the foundation of the earth"? It was to answer the Jews who claimed that they were there first, and because Israel rejected Christ, then God decided to offer redemption to the Gentiles at the eleventh hour, so to speak; so the Gentiles were second class (the Jewish Christians probably said). However, the apostle said that way, way back, God had planned to reach out to Gentiles -- as early as you can think of, even before earth was made -- that is how EARLY God had predestine or preplanned.

Wanting to put the Jews and Gentiles on a level playing field, Paul spent much effort to explain that the Gentiles are receiving a great eternal inheritance and the same Holy Spirit from God. The Gentiles' redemption are no less than the Jews.

It is meaningful to read and appreciate context.

 

[roman2819]

Predestined means personal not just categorical. And it is for whom He foreknew, not what he foreknew!

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Nope, according to the Bible, predestination does NOT mean personal. Here is what it means:

Way back, even before the foundation of the earth, God foreknew that He would choose the Jews to be His nation and people, and later, He would also offer redemption to the Gentiles. God had pre-planned or predestine all this to unite both Jews and Gentiles in Christ Jesus.

The above is explained in 70 verses from Ephesians 1,2,3. Note how Paul used these words, "BOTH people" or "BOTH Jews and Gentiles," 3 times as he explained how Jesus brought the two peoples together. Note also he said "you Gentiles" which means he was not referring to individual predestination. If one take time to digest the contents and context, you will see that none of this is about single or double predestination at all.

Why did Paul said "before the foundation of the earth"? It was to answer the Jews who claimed that they were there first, and because Israel rejected Christ, then God decided to offer redemption to the Gentiles at the eleventh hour, so to speak; so the Gentiles were second class (the Jewish Christians probably said). However, the apostle said that way, way back, God had planned to reach out to Gentiles -- as early as you can think of, even before earth was made -- that is how EARLY God had predestine or preplanned.

Wanting to put the Jews and Gentiles on a level playing field, Paul spent much effort to explain that the Gentiles are receiving a great eternal inheritance and the same Holy Spirit from God. The Gentiles' redemption are no less than the Jews.

It is meaningful to read and appreciate context.

 

[ubicaritas]

In the Scripture, "He choose us before the foundation of time" does not mean that God choose individuals. The following is predestination in biblical context:

Way back, even before the foundation of the earth, God foreknew that He would choose the Jews to be His nation and people, and later, He would also offer redemption to the Gentiles. God had pre-planned or predestine all this to unite both Jews and Gentiles in Christ Jesus.

The above is explained in 70 verses from Ephesians 1,2,3. Note how Paul used the words "BOTH people" or "BOTH Jews and Gentiles" 3 times as he explained how Jesus brought the two peoples together. Note also he said "you Gentiles" which means he was not referring to individual predestination. If one take time to digest the contents and context, you will see that none of this is about single or double predestination at all.

Why did Paul said "before the foundation of the earth"? It was to answer the Jews who claimed that they were there first, and because Israel rejected Christ, then God decided to offer redemption to the Gentiles at the eleventh hour, so to speak; so the Gentiles were second class (the Jewish Christians probably said). However, the apostle said that way, way back, God had planned to reach out to Gentiles -- as early as you can think of, even before earth was made -- that is how EARLY God had predestine or preplanned.

Wanting to put the Jews and Gentiles on a level playing field, Paul spent much effort to explain that the Gentiles are receiving a great eternal inheritance and the same Holy Spirit from God. The Gentiles' redemption are no less than the Jews.

It is meaningful to read and appreciate context.

Well, Lutherans believe absolutely God chooses individuals. He loves us as individual persons, not blobs of humanity. At the same time, what ViaCrucis says is absolutely true, predestination is not a matter of God necessarily arbitrarily choosing certain people to save or damn according to some "secret counsel".

 

[sdowney717]

Nope, according to the Bible, predestination does NOT mean personal. Here is what it means:

Way back, even before the foundation of the earth, God foreknew that He would choose the Jews to be His nation and people, and later, He would also offer redemption to the Gentiles. God had pre-planned or predestine all this to unite both Jews and Gentiles in Christ Jesus.

The above is explained in 70 verses from Ephesians 1,2,3. Note how Paul used these words, "BOTH people" or "BOTH Jews and Gentiles," 3 times as he explained how Jesus brought the two peoples together. Note also he said "you Gentiles" which means he was not referring to individual predestination. If one take time to digest the contents and context, you will see that none of this is about single or double predestination at all.

Why did Paul said "before the foundation of the earth"? It was to answer the Jews who claimed that they were there first, and because Israel rejected Christ, then God decided to offer redemption to the Gentiles at the eleventh hour, so to speak; so the Gentiles were second class (the Jewish Christians probably said). However, the apostle said that way, way back, God had planned to reach out to Gentiles -- as early as you can think of, even before earth was made -- that is how EARLY God had predestine or preplanned.

Wanting to put the Jews and Gentiles on a level playing field, Paul spent much effort to explain that the Gentiles are receiving a great eternal inheritance and the same Holy Spirit from God. The Gentiles' redemption are no less than the Jews.

It is meaningful to read and appreciate context.

Romans 3 says all have turned away, no one understands, NO ONE SEEKS AFTER GOD.
Unless you are first born anew you can not perceive the kingdom of God, John 3:3.
A natural man has a carnal mind at enmity with God.
God chooses whom He will make born again, then they are learning from the Father and all of them taught come to Christ.
But see your teaching the opposite of what it means by grace are you saved , not of yourselves, being God's gift.

9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.

10 As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
13 “Their throat is an open [d]tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

 

[roman2819]

Romans 3 says all have turned away, no one understands, NO ONE SEEKS AFTER GOD.
Unless you are first born anew you can not perceive the kingdom of God, John 3:3.
A natural man has a carnal mind at enmity with God.
God chooses whom He will make born again, then they are learning from the Father and all of them taught come to Christ.
But see your teaching the opposite of what it means by grace are you saved , not of yourselves, being God's gift.

9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.

10 As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
13 “Their throat is an open [d]tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

There are no words in Romans 3 that allude to individual predestination at all. Romans 3 say that all have sinned, that's all.

And because all are such sinners, the Scripture is saying, Jews cannot redeem themselves by observing Jewish law as in the past.; and Gentiles cannot save themselves by good deeds, hence we need to repent through Jesus' atonement. In Romans 3 or Ephesians 1-3, do we see words like God choose each person individually? Did Jesus say that at all during his ministry on earth?

Just hope Christians would stop inferring from words to build strange theories and arguments of single or double predestination.

In Ephesians 1-2, what did Paul mean when he said "BOTH people" or "BOTH Jews and Gentiles," three times as he explained that God's redemption include "you Gentiles," which means he was not referring to individual predestination.

 

[Billy Evmur]

We were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world to be a people for the praise of His glorious grace
Who He foreknew He also predestined, chose, called, justified, glorified....to be conformed to the image of His Son.

I.E we are predestined to be the church, the Body of Christ.

Of COURSE we must be saved for that....but it does not preclude anybody else from being saved.

If we are the people we are predestined and elect to be...many will be saved.

 

[roman2819]

We were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world to be a people for the praise of His glorious grace
Who He foreknew He also predestined, chose, called, justified, glorified....to be conformed to the image of His Son.

I.E we are predestined to be the church, the Body of Christ.

Of COURSE we must be saved for that....but it does not preclude anybody else from being saved.

If we are the people we are predestined and elect to be...many will be saved.

Your view does not sound as preposterous as some others in this forum. But nevertheless, the bible does not mean that in context.

Why do people read Ephesian 1:5 "he predestined us ..." and stop there. What about rest of verses Eph 1:6 to chpt 3? We must interpret in context, not using own logic or deduction, otherwise we will have a thousand "right views."

"He choose us, predestine us before foundation of earth." in context means ....

Way back, even before the foundation of the earth, God foreknew that He would choose the Jews to be His nation and people, and later, He would also offer redemption to the Gentiles. God had pre-planned or predestine all this to unite both Jews and Gentiles in Christ Jesus.

The above is explained in 70 verses from Ephesians 1,2,3. Note how Paul used these words, "BOTH people," or "BOTH Jews and Gentiles," God brought the two peoples "under one head Jesus Christ". Note also he said "you Gentiles" which means he was not referring to individual predestination. He said 3x: "BOTH people," or "BOTH Jews and Gentiles".

Why did Paul said "before the foundation of the earth"? It was to counter the Christian Jews who claimed that they were chosen first, and because Israel rejected Christ, then God decided to offer redemption to the Gentiles at the eleventh hour, so to speak; implying Gentiles were second class. However, the apostle said that way, way back, God had planned to reach out to Gentiles -- as early as you can think of, even before earth was made -- that is how EARLY God had predestine or preplanned. It does not mean God choose individuals before foundation of time.

(Note: Offer does not mean automated redemption). If one take time to digest the contents and context, you will see that none of this is about God choose individuals before foundation of time.

Wanting to put the Jews and Gentiles on a level playing field, Paul spent much effort to explain that the Gentiles are receiving a great eternal inheritance and the same Holy Spirit from God. The Gentiles' redemption are no less than the Jews. Hence there is much elaboration this previous gift to the Gentiles.

It is meaningful to read and appreciate context.

 

[Billy Evmur]

There are no words in Romans 3 that allude to individual predestination at all. Romans 3 say that all have sinned, that's all.

And because all are such sinners, the Scripture is saying, Jews cannot redeem themselves by observing Jewish law as in the past.; and Gentiles cannot save themselves by good deeds, hence we need to repent through Jesus' atonement. In Romans 3 or Ephesians 1-3, do we see words like God choose each person individually? Did Jesus say that at all during his ministry on earth?

Just hope Christians would stop inferring from words to build strange theories and arguments of single or double predestination.

In Ephesians 1-2, what did Paul mean when he said "BOTH people" or "BOTH Jews and Gentiles," three times as he explained that God's redemption include "you Gentiles," which means he was not referring to individual predestination.

Who He foreknew He also predestined, chose...

You's who He did not know...of course for Gentiles our predestination [unto the church, not unto salvation] is personal and individual...how could He preplan an unknown life?

This does not preclude any from being saved......do you know what, I think He predestined us because we were the worse sinners, the most hopeless cases.

 

[roman2819]

Who He foreknew He also predestined, chose...

You's who He did not know...of course for Gentiles our predestination [unto the church, not unto salvation] is personal and individual...how could He preplan an unknown life?

This does not preclude any from being saved......do you know what, I think He predestined us because we were the worse sinners, the most hopeless cases.

I think Romans mean that God foreknew He would offer redemption to Gentiles one day. "Who he foreknew" does not mean individual.

Even the basic premise of "supposedly Calvin predestination theory" -- assuming Calvin was talking about predestination the way many people thought he was -- that people are too sinful to chose God, is flawed. Through the ages, there HAVE ALWAYS been people who wanted to believe in God. This is evident by people who made burnt offerings and animal sacrifices to gods that they believe in, and also did in good deeds. These actions could not earn them any merits for salvation, of course. but they wanted to believe in gods or heavenly realm, they hope that being good will bring forth a better afterlife.

My point is although people were too sinful to earn salvation by their own works, yet there were some who wanted to believe in God, which refute the "supposedly Calvin predestination theory" that people are too sinful to chose God. As well, people who keep indulging in this "Calvin predestination theory" should know that they could be mistaken about how they misinterpret John Calvin writing -- he was not talking about God choose individuals at all.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Your view does not sound as preposterous as some others in this forum. But nevertheless, the bible does not mean that in context.

Why do people read Ephesian 1:5 "he predestined us ..." and stop there. What about rest of verses Eph 1:6 to chpt 3? We must interpret in context, not using own logic or deduction, otherwise we will have a thousand "right views."

"He choose us, predestine us before foundation of earth." in context means ....

Way back, even before the foundation of the earth, God foreknew that He would choose the Jews to be His nation and people, and later, He would also offer redemption to the Gentiles. God had pre-planned or predestine all this to unite both Jews and Gentiles in Christ Jesus.

The above is explained in 70 verses from Ephesians 1,2,3. Note how Paul used these words, "BOTH people," or "BOTH Jews and Gentiles," God brought the two peoples "under one head Jesus Christ". Note also he said "you Gentiles" which means he was not referring to individual predestination. He said 3x: "BOTH people," or "BOTH Jews and Gentiles".

Why did Paul said "before the foundation of the earth"? It was to counter the Christian Jews who claimed that they were chosen first, and because Israel rejected Christ, then God decided to offer redemption to the Gentiles at the eleventh hour, so to speak; implying Gentiles were second class. However, the apostle said that way, way back, God had planned to reach out to Gentiles -- as early as you can think of, even before earth was made -- that is how EARLY God had predestine or preplanned. It does not mean God choose individuals before foundation of time.

(Note: Offer does not mean automated redemption). If one take time to digest the contents and context, you will see that none of this is about God choose individuals before foundation of time.

Wanting to put the Jews and Gentiles on a level playing field, Paul spent much effort to explain that the Gentiles are receiving a great eternal inheritance and the same Holy Spirit from God. The Gentiles' redemption are no less than the Jews. Hence there is much elaboration this previous gift to the Gentiles.

It is meaningful to read and appreciate context.

I don't mean to continue a conversation on a side tangent, but I feel like this needs answered: Roman2819 wants us to believe God originally thought vaguely of big overall plans, it seems, leaving the minutiae to the future. He wants us to think God had to look into the future to know who would come to him, without causing them to come. Therefore, I must conclude, he is also of the opinion that Free Will is just as Biblical as the Trinity.

I don't remember which threads I have posted just what in, so let me repeat here, that when God does something, he does the whole thing. Yes he uses means, but he does what it takes for the means to do exactly as he planned. Remember, he is not us. He does not behave according to our logic. I have every reason to say, (admittedly the words are human, and interpreted humanly), that for him to foresee something is pretty much the same as to forecause it..

God is a micromanager, if it helps to think of it like that. Not that he doesn't accomplish whatever he does by use of apostles etc, and even indeed by use of every person, obedient and disobedient, and by every motion of every wind and force, but by him every higgs boson or whatever is more basic to matter and energy has its being.

This by no means makes us robots, but we simply do not operate on the same level as he does. It makes no sense to say he only does some of it. He is not subject to time, not even to sequence. When he is doing something he has done it. When Christ died, it is finished.

 

[Billy Evmur]

I think Romans mean that God foreknew He would offer redemption to Gentiles one day. "Who he foreknew" does not mean individual.

Even the basic premise of "supposedly Calvin predestination theory" -- assuming Calvin was talking about predestination the way many people thought he was -- that people are too sinful to chose God, is flawed. Through the ages, there HAVE ALWAYS been people who wanted to believe in God. This is evident by people who made burnt offerings and animal sacrifices to gods that they believe in, and also did in good deeds. These actions could not earn them any merits for salvation, of course. but they wanted to believe in gods or heavenly realm, they hope that being good will bring forth a better afterlife.

My point is although people were too sinful to earn salvation by their own works, yet there were some who wanted to believe in God, which refute the "supposedly Calvin predestination theory" that people are too sinful to chose God. As well, people who keep indulging in this "Calvin predestination theory" should know that they could be mistaken about how they misinterpret John Calvin writing -- he was not talking about God choose individuals at all.

You prove the point, people may desire to know God but they are totally unable, it takes a revelation which can only come with the gospel and it takes for God to open the heart to receive that revelation.

 

[roman2819]

You prove the point, people may desire to know God but they are totally unable, it takes a revelation which can only come with the gospel and it takes for God to open the heart to receive that revelation.

God is trying to convince people but we have free will to believe or reject.

These are couple of real life situations I encounter:

In Singapore (where i am from), men have to serve time in the army (conscription). During my stint there, a friend, GB, was injured in an explosion. He was badly wounded, lost 4 fingers, with sharpnels and sand embedded in his skin. It could have be worst if another soldier walking in front of him had not taken the full blast and died. GB was hospitalized for half a year, many friends including myself visited him. After he was discharged, I called him, and as we spoke, I asked whether the incident had caused him to be receptive to God (GB was a non-believer and he had heard the gospel before). He said that other friends had asked him same question while he was in hospital, but he had not turned to God.

Recently, I asked another close friend whether he would believe in God, but he politely declined.

These are only a few of the many instances I see people choosing not to believe. Where I am in SIngapore, 20% are Christians,others are Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, Taoists, atheists and freethinkers -- I spoke to people across this spectrum. God is calling people in different ways, but He also gives us free will to decide. It would be totally meaningless if He choose which individuals who to save. When I was working in Japan and attending a church, I had a discussion with out church assistant paster (who was from USA) about Calvinism, and he said that John Calvin had been misquoted, he never said that God choose individuals. A few years later, I got hold of a book which is John Calvin's writing in today's English. Calvin did quote Ephesians 1 verses but thats all, he did not go on to explain anything about "individual predestination".

 

[roman2819]

I don't mean to continue a conversation on a side tangent, but I feel like this needs answered: Roman2819 wants us to believe God originally thought vaguely of big overall plans, it seems, leaving the minutiae to the future. He wants us to think God had to look into the future to know who would come to him, without causing them to come. Therefore, I must conclude, he is also of the opinion that Free Will is just as Biblical as the Trinity.

I don't remember which threads I have posted just what in, so let me repeat here, that when God does something, he does the whole thing. Yes he uses means, but he does what it takes for the means to do exactly as he planned. Remember, he is not us. He does not behave according to our logic. I have every reason to say, (admittedly the words are human, and interpreted humanly), that for him to foresee something is pretty much the same as to forecause it..

God is a micromanager, if it helps to think of it like that. Not that he doesn't accomplish whatever he does by use of apostles etc, and even indeed by use of every person, obedient and disobedient, and by every motion of every wind and force, but by him every higgs boson or whatever is more basic to matter and energy has its being.

This by no means makes us robots, but we simply do not operate on the same level as he does. It makes no sense to say he only does some of it. He is not subject to time, not even to sequence. When he is doing something he has done it. When Christ died, it is finished.

If we look at real life situations, it is impossible to see that "God is a micromanager". Do you see God micromanage situation at schools or offices? Does God micromanage marriages of Christian couple - and if so, why do many marriages end in divorces? Does God micromanage wars and sickness? Mark Quayle went on to say "This by no means makes us robots" -- but how can we have free will to make decisions while God is micromanaging us?

It is one thing to give opinions about how God works. But does our opinions hold in the facw of real life situations?

My observation is this: God give people free will to make choices most of the time, and He enacts His will in some siruations. This conclusion is not what I like to believe, but it is based on reality, from looking at real peoples' situations. If we observe our own lives (the easiest one to start with), we will see that in some unique situations, God leads us to bring about the conclusion He wants, but usually, He is not trying to micromanage -- far from it. Usually, we make decisions and live with our choices. Reflect upon this in the lives of people that we know, and on events around us, and with this observation, we can explain both good and bad stuff that happen; on wars, famines, on personal and global crisises. It is inevitable to conclude that God allow people to exercise free will most, most of the time, but He does intervene in a few situations. God is in control, but he is not trying to control everything. Soverignty belongs to Him, and He is not going for absolute control or micromanagement. Whatever we do, whatever the sum of peoples' actions, God is still sovereign over our lives, over humanity and universe.

 

[zippy2006]

Hey there. As I understand it Lutherans believe in single predestination, that is, they believe that God has chosen people to be saved but hasn't chosen who's damned. They also believe that Jesus died for the sins of everyone, not just some people. How is it possible for those who are not predestined to be saved it they aren't the predestined? They'd have to work towards it, which means that Lutheran theology is self contradictory right? Do those that aren't predestined have a chance of being saved? Please explain this to me, and don't give me some answer about how this isn't supposed to make sense or you just need to trust contradicting Scripture, because I'm not buying it

Here's my Catholic opinion:

Lutheranism teaches that single predestination doesn't imply double predestination. Everyone agrees that doesn't make sense, and the Lutherans will say that it doesn't need to make sense; it is scriptural. Since man's rationality isn't altogether reliable and certainly isn't able to judge the decrees of God, we shouldn't worry about the apparent irrationality of this.

It's possible that this is a caricature, but I doubt it. You can go chat with the Lutherans for 10 pages, but I think this is more or less what you will end up with. It is offered as a shortcut.