Lutheran Homosexual Clergy

[Luther073082]

I'm confused. If the ELCA teaches nothing, condones nothing and opposes even less than nothing, how can people like you and DaRev be doctrinally aligned with them? Confessional Lutherans are aligned with Scripture and the Lutheran Confessions, since the ELCA teaches nothing, then there is nothing to be aligned with. The ELCA from what you've been saying sounds like it's a free-for-all sin fest, basically. Confessional Lutherans, at least in my experience, are VERY opposed to that.

I should say that we are not positivly doctrinally aligned but we are not opposed to their doctrines outright because they have none.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that in the ELCA, you can belive whatever you want. They say very little in terms of what they are for, and what they are against.

So therefore nearly anything we belive can be in line with the ELCA's beliefs.

For example they have in practice allowed homosexual pastors and possibly opened the way to homosexual marriages in ELCA churchs. However they have never said homosexuality is not a sin. They have done that carefully because a lot of their churchs and members think it is a sin. So basically everyone operates by their "bound concious" on homosexuality. They also operate by their bound concious on other matters like apostolic succession, abortion, divorce, sexuality, if the bible is 100% true, 75%, 50%, 25%, or just a bunch of rubbish, and of course you have your bound concious on which parts of the bible are true and which ones you can ignore.

The only things they take a stand on are things which are not terribly controversial. Beating up women is bad, I belive they took a stand on that one. . . Apparently they've got the backbone to call rape a sin too.

If you ever want to waste your time, you should read an ELCA social statement. They are masters at writing a bunch of stuff without ever really saying anything.

** I do want to note that individual parishes and pastors do actually take stands on these things. But the ELCA as a whole does not. And that is because the stands of two individual parishes and pastors may be very radically different in nearly every respect. **

 

[mdancin4theLord]

The reason I'm not for homosexual relationships is because it is contrary to the nature of the way our bodies were made. And since God made us, it makes sense the he wouldn't want us using our bodies for a purpose contrary to His plan for us. God created the first marriage which was Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. And Jesus (God in the flesh) reaffirmed that marriage = Adam and Eve when he was asked about marriage.

You are 100% right. There is not one example of a homosexual relationship that God condones in the Bible, not one. Not one in marriage.....either.

Our bodies God created like you said...for the male female relationship, not any other.

 

[mdancin4theLord]

On CF everyone is a Christian regardless of what they believe or practice, unless they're Atheists or Agnostics. I remember getting in trouble for telling a person who claimed they were a Christian that they weren't a Christian after they denied Jesus died for their sins, denied He is the Son of God and denied He rose from the dead.

That is why that when you are on this forum, you watch for false prophets....they are here...and the rules do not allow anyone to question them...which in itself is contrary to what the scriptures tell us we can do.

I feel for ya cause the same thing has happen to me time and time again.....makes me wonder why I am even here...if we can't stand on truth.

Does anyone know of a site where you can discuss issues and stand on truth of the scriptures...a place where your hands are not tied?

 

[mdancin4theLord]

you know that big doesn't mean right, so why do you even bother throwing this argument out there? The ELCA just happens to be the loudest as well, making the rest of us scramble to re-educate everyone else on what Lutherans actually believe. As you are in the minority here, I'm sure you don't want to open that can of worms yet again, right?

I agree with those who say that pro-choice Christian is an oxymoron, a contradiction. We have evidence, clear cut and precise, that there is life within the womb, presented to us in the bible, much like we have evidence that God didn't like homosexuality. There are just too many people that choose to ignore that part of the bible.

What does that say about Christianity? The people who claim to be Christian, but you know by what they say and do...they are not. These people can influence babyChristians and seekers...to lies. And here on this forum, we can do nothing about it. Because if we call them on it.....the warnings start coming. I am not sure they ignore the parts of the Bible as much as its rejecting the Word. It amazes me......boggles my mind how someone who calls themselves.......Christian would condone abortion. Obama is an example that comes to mind. He claims to be a Christian...yet he is pro-abortion and wants it legal so his daughters have a choice should they need it. I believe he also condones homosexual marriage. How can one do this....beleive this and claim to be Christ who said the opposite?

 

[Basil the Great]

It is good to see both conservative and liberal Lutherans posting here once again. I do not believe that the answers to the divisions within Lutheranism is for the liberals and conservatives to avoid talking to each other.

I am a pretty moderate guy and conservative Christians would say I am a liberal. Nevertheless, try as I might, I simply cannot seem to accept the idea of homosexual relationships being sanctioned by any Christian body. Having said that, there is no doubt that we live in days of Modernism and that a trend is here. First we had the United Church of Christ, then the Episcopal Church, then the ELCA, then the Presbyterian Church (USA) and you can bet that given time, other denominations will follow. It may take decades, but I suspect that the United Methodist Church and the American Baptist Church will follow their lead eventually. I would not be too surprised if the Disciples of Christ did as well.

I am not sure what all of this means. There is no doubt in my mind that before most Christian Forums posters die, gay marriage will be legal in virtually every country in Europe, North America and South America. Now it is true that even if every nation on Earth legalized gay marriage, it does not mean that God would give it his blessing. However, we must give pause and wonder what this trend means for greater society, as well as the future of the Christian Church. We have already seen many changes for most every Christian body. Most Catholics and Protestants and Eastern Orthodox now accept each other as brothers and sisters in Christ. We all know that this was most certainly NOT the case just a few generations ago. Divorce and remarriage for Protestants and Orthodox and annullments and remarriage for Catholics has become much more acceptable than in days past. While it seems extremely unlikely that homosexual relationships will ever be accepted by 100% of the Christian family, it is possible that within a few generations it will be accepted by a multitude of Protestant denominations and favored by a majority of Catholics and Orthodox who sit in the pews. You know, to at least some extent, the positions of Christian bodies reflect the views of the lay members. Hence, if the views of society at large change enough, then all bets are off and gay marriage might one day be accepted by many conservative denominations.

Don't get me wrong. My post is not an endorsement of homosexual relationships or gay marriage. Personally, I doubt that such can be defended from a Christian perspective. However, I do believe that we all need to be realistic and recognize that civil society is fast changing on this issue. One can only wonder what the world and the Christian Church will look like in the year 2100, at least in terms of the acceptance of gay marriage. No doubt some will say that we are living in the end times and that there is a great falling away from the true Christian faith. I do not know. I will leave that up to God. I contend though that the issue of gay marriage is at least on level similiar to other issues on which many Christians have changed their views over the last few generations - slavery, birth control, abortion, ordination of women, women having to wear hats in church, the acceptance of Catholics and Protestants and Orthodox as brothers and sisters, eating meat on Fridays = mortal sin, unbaptized babies not being buried in hallowed ground, suicide victims not being buried in hallowed ground, eternal punishment vs. "the possibility" that all will eventually be saved, etc.

Yes, some Christian bodies have changed their views more than others, but virtually all, if not all, have changed their positions on at least some of the above issues. I guess it is a matter of degree, but who decides which issues are core to the faith and which are not? The day may come when such a question might not be so easy to answer, if most of the lay members hold views contrary to that of the denominational leaders. May God help us all.

 

[Zecryphon]

I should say that we are not positivly doctrinally aligned but we are not opposed to their doctrines outright because they have none.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that in the ELCA, you can belive whatever you want. They say very little in terms of what they are for, and what they are against.

So therefore nearly anything we belive can be in line with the ELCA's beliefs.

For example they have in practice allowed homosexual pastors and possibly opened the way to homosexual marriages in ELCA churchs. However they have never said homosexuality is not a sin. They have done that carefully because a lot of their churchs and members think it is a sin. So basically everyone operates by their "bound concious" on homosexuality. They also operate by their bound concious on other matters like apostolic succession, abortion, divorce, sexuality, if the bible is 100% true, 75%, 50%, 25%, or just a bunch of rubbish, and of course you have your bound concious on which parts of the bible are true and which ones you can ignore.

The only things they take a stand on are things which are not terribly controversial. Beating up women is bad, I belive they took a stand on that one. . . Apparently they've got the backbone to call rape a sin too.

If you ever want to waste your time, you should read an ELCA social statement. They are masters at writing a bunch of stuff without ever really saying anything.

** I do want to note that individual parishes and pastors do actually take stands on these things. But the ELCA as a whole does not. And that is because the stands of two individual parishes and pastors may be very radically different in nearly every respect. **

The ELCA has to teach something. I mean what are people doing in church on Sunday mornings in the ELCA if they don't have common beliefs in some things? Are they just sitting there twiddling their thumbs? Or if they're really good, their toes? My problem with the ELCA has always been that they tend to say they believe something, but when that something becomes an issue, they never enforce it.

I remember they said that they would discipline a pastor if they found out he or she were actively engaging in homosexual sex. But the ELCA as far as I know, even though they said they would, has never disciplined one pastor for that sin. So while they may sit here on CF-TCL and say they teach this and that, they don't actually practice what they say they do and that's always been one of my big problems with them. They say they teach the Confessions, but we can see from their practices that they don't do what the Confessions say they are to do, namely in regards to Communion.

 

[lux et lex]

Yes, in a typical Sunday morning service in the ELCA we start out by announcing new homosexual relationships, and that is met with wild cheering and applause. Then the pastor says a few Bible-y things and then we talk about taking shifts escorting at the Women's Clinic to keep the protesters at bay, and then we bring the Muslims in and they join us for communion, then we sing a few songs, have a sermon about the joys of liberalism and end it with a rousing rendition of Kumbaya. Now you know, and knowing is half the battle.

 

[Luther073082]

The ELCA has to teach something. I mean what are people doing in church on Sunday mornings in the ELCA if they don't have common beliefs in some things?

The people in the same parish may have common beliefs on something but as a whole nationally speaking. . . they just don't.

I mean I aught to take you to my old ELCA church for a while and have you talk to some of the people there. And you'd probably come to the conclusion that they are theological moderates, sort of in-line with some of the more liberal elements of the LCMS. Liberal on a few things, but on the whole conservative on most, especially social issues. Teaching young earth creationism, homosexuality is a sin, no sex outside of marriage, the bible is taken at face value, things like that.
Then I should take you to the one that I bible studied with and the differences would be spectacular. . . Theistic evolution, no problems with homosexuality, etc. . . Pick and choose which parts of the bible really happened.

While both of these churchs would be too liberal for you, you would at the same time recognize that there is a MASSIVE difference between the two parishes. . . But they are both a part of the ELCA.

Are they just sitting there twiddling their thumbs? Or if they're really good, their toes? My problem with the ELCA has always been that they tend to say they believe something, but when that something becomes an issue, they never enforce it.

Parishes can be fairly united in beliefs, but nationally speaking the ELCA isn't.

Understand that the ELCA is sort of like the United States under the articles of confederation. The national organization attempts to set a few. . . very few standards and the parishes basically just do what they want, and belive what they want.

I remember they said that they would discipline a pastor if they found out he or she were actively engaging in homosexual sex. But the ELCA as far as I know, even though they said they would, has never disciplined one pastor for that sin. So while they may sit here on CF-TCL and say they teach this and that, they don't actually practice what they say they do and that's always been one of my big problems with them.

They have in a few cases. A woman pastor, if I think her name was Kelly Fryer, was defrocked a long time ago for leaving her husband and running off with another woman.

The problem was that as time went on and the ELCA got close to the 2009 decision, they became less and less willing to punish those violations. And at the same time the movement to have those who where defrocked for things like that be accepted back in. For example my regional synod (Indiana/Kentucky Synod) just prior to the 2009 vote had Ms. Fryer as the keynote speaker at their Synodical meeting.

I know this because the Word alone chapter sent me a message about it and I wrote a letter to the synodical bishop in protest of an unrepentant sexual sinner being the key-note speaker at the meeting. Not that it mattered much...

They say they teach the Confessions, but we can see from their practices that they don't do what the Confessions say they are to do, namely in regards to Communion.

Thats something I've never understood... When I was in the ELCA I understood that we didn't subscribe to the confessions completly and there where parts that we did not accept. To me it seems disingenious to say that the ELCA does accept the confessions in their entirety.

I mean in the ELCA its possible that an individual or even a parish could accept the confessions completly as pretty much any belief, conservative or liberal is allowed in the ELCA. But I've never seen a ELCA church that was completly confessional as pretty much any parish that was completly confessional got the heck out of that situation a long time ago. For example, the AALC broke off just before the ELCA was formed and turned out to be completly confessional.

 

[mdancin4theLord]

Yes, in a typical Sunday morning service in the ELCA we start out by announcing new homosexual relationships, and that is met with wild cheering and applause. Then the pastor says a few Bible-y things and then we talk about taking shifts escorting at the Women's Clinic to keep the protesters at bay, and then we bring the Muslims in and they join us for communion, then we sing a few songs, have a sermon about the joys of liberalism and end it with a rousing rendition of Kumbaya. Now you know, and knowing is half the battle.

Mocking.....

Romans 12:2

"Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect."

 

[alexnbethmom]

Yes, in a typical Sunday morning service in the ELCA we start out by announcing new homosexual relationships, and that is met with wild cheering and applause. Then the pastor says a few Bible-y things and then we talk about taking shifts escorting at the Women's Clinic to keep the protesters at bay, and then we bring the Muslims in and they join us for communion, then we sing a few songs, have a sermon about the joys of liberalism and end it with a rousing rendition of Kumbaya. Now you know, and knowing is half the battle.

Mocking.....

Romans 12:2

"Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect."

this is most DEFINITELY mocking - but honestly, this is what i've come to expect from this poster....

i'm absolutely biting my fingers down to the nubs to keep from typing what i REALLY want to say.....the opinions of some are so vile, nauseating, and wrong, it makes my head want to explode.....

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Yes, in a typical Sunday morning service in the ELCA we start out by announcing new homosexual relationships, and that is met with wild cheering and applause. Then the pastor says a few Bible-y things and then we talk about taking shifts escorting at the Women's Clinic to keep the protesters at bay, and then we bring the Muslims in and they join us for communion, then we sing a few songs, have a sermon about the joys of liberalism and end it with a rousing rendition of Kumbaya. Now you know, and knowing is half the battle.

Sadly, this isn't actually far from the truth in some congregations.

 

[mdseverin]

Sadly, this isn't actually far from the truth in some congregations.

I find it highly suspect that you have ever attended an ELCA church, let alone in the past few years. And if you have, I highly highly doubt you have seen this. You are letting your imagination get the best of you.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I find it highly suspect that you have ever attended an ELCA church, let alone in the past few years. And if you have, I highly highly doubt you have seen this. You are letting your imagination get the best of you.

You would most certainly be wrong. Most of my dad's side of the family is ELCA. I've attended plenty of their services for various reasons. Definitely NOT imagination here.

You shouldn't assume things about people.

 

[Luther073082]

I find it highly suspect that you have ever attended an ELCA church, let alone in the past few years. And if you have, I highly highly doubt you have seen this. You are letting your imagination get the best of you.

There are plenty of ELCA churchs that are not like that. . . and there are plenty that are. If you ever visited a liberal ELCA congregation and realize that these guys are in the same denomination as you, then you would completly understand most of the problems that theological conservatives have with the ELCA.

When I was in the ELCA, I bible studied with a liberal congregation. And its partially because of my experience doing that, that I was able to see the vast wide range of beliefs that are the ELCA.

 

[mdseverin]

You would most certainly be wrong. Most of my dad's side of the family is ELCA. I've attended plenty of their services for various reasons. Definitely NOT imagination here.

You shouldn't assume things about people.

So you are telling me you have been to, and your father's side of the family attends, an ELCA church where:

• They announce who is a homosexual and the congregation applauds
• Asks if anyone needed escorts to an abortion clinic
• Invites practicing Muslims to take communion

Please tell me the name of this church.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

So you are telling me you have been to, and your father's side of the family attends, an ELCA church where:

• They announce who is a homosexual and the congregation applauds
• Asks if anyone needed escorts to an abortion clinic
• Invites practicing Muslims to take communion

Please tell me the name of this church.

At one service they were very pleased to announce several homosexual unions, yes. In their bulletin they have write-ups on the local Planned Parenthood clinic and how their members could support it, one of which was making contacts with protesters outside of the clinic. Since they allow everyone at the railing, I'm sure they'd have no problems with a Muslim at the railing. One of my dad's uncle's is a loud atheist - the pastor is fully aware of this and still allows him at the railing.

They often have various other pastors from other denominations preaching in their pulpits, too. A family member recently complained to my dad because they allowed a female pastor from some unknown church to preach and she spent her sermon talking about her partner.

I could go on and on about the practices of this church, and several others that I've been to. But I think I've made my point rather nicely.

 

[brightmorningstar]

• They announce who is a homosexual and the congregation applauds
• Asks if anyone needed escorts to an abortion clinic
• Invites practicing Muslims to take communion

How welcoming would they be to homophobes and paedophiles, or are they exclusive and bigoted ?

 

[alexnbethmom]

PW - i wouldn't even waste your breath - it's obvious that this is going to fall on deaf ears and he's STILL going to demand further proof, even though more than adequate proof has been provided, as it is provided EVERY SINGLE TIME we have this "discussion"....

 

[PreachersWife2004]

How welcoming would they be to homophobes and paedophiles, or are they exclusive and bigoted ?

Awhile ago the pastor publicly chastised my father for belonging to a church that had such a strong anti-homosexual stance. That was after a family funeral. (If one cares to do some pretty good research, they can see that we have not had good luck with ELCA funerals in the family)

Pretty nice, eh?

 

[mdseverin]

I just want to know the name of the church and where it's located please