Lusting

[Montalban]

Who am I to argue?

As a member of the site, a contributor to this thread, and as a Muslim...

Do you consider it to be unchaste when it comes to the obedient females who obey what God has told them to enjoin with regards to cover?

Nice try. Typical move to change the subject. We're not talking about Christians consider, but what Moslems do.

But then again the amount of times Moslems change the subject...!

Any female who obey what God has told them is directly obeying God and anyone who disobey then she either doesn't posses knowledge or fail to acknowledge.

Are you saying that to be not fully covered is to disobey God?

 

[Vaneeza Malkah]

If they argue that its a necessary part to protect women and men, why don't we see them going sex-mad here in the west?

some fall victim to the immorality in the west but it's nothing to gloat over. I think covering onesself protects a woman in more ways than being raped. It protects a woman from causing a man to sin (in his mind or heart as well as physically). These are not concepts that are nonexistant in church/christianity's history. Look at 16th century europe, nearly all christian women are covered from head to toe, some in garments that resembel a burkha or chadar.

 

[Bookofknowledge]

As a member of the site, a contributor to this thread, and as a Muslim...

Nice try. Typical move to change the subject. We're not talking about Christians consider, but what Moslems do.

But then again the amount of times Moslems change the subject...!

haha, if I explain it in detail my post will be deleted and I will get a warning so let's not go there

Are you saying that to be not fully covered is to disobey God?

What can I say, only if one understand. I don't consider myself to know more then God and God Says

33:59
O Prophet! Enjoin your wives, daughters and the believing women that they should draw their outer garments over their persons. That is more proper, so that they may be recognized and not bothered. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

 

[Montalban]

haha, if I explain it in detail my post will be deleted and I will get a warning so let's not go there

So you can't say what Moslems believe? Odd that many people such as MuslimConvert can cut and paste.

What can I say, only if one understand. I don't consider myself to know more then God and God Says

33:59
O Prophet! Enjoin your wives, daughters and the believing women that they should draw their outer garments over their persons. That is more proper, so that they may be recognized and not bothered. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Sure, so if you think women should cover up, why aren't more Moslem men raping women in the sinful west, where there's more temptation?

Conversely, why in good "Islamic" nations do women have to be more covered up, when Sharia law, and a Moslem upbrining should have instilled some kind of discipline on men?

 

[Bookofknowledge]

So you can't say what Moslems believe? Odd that many people such as MuslimConvert can cut and paste.

Sure, so if you think women should cover up, why aren't more Moslem men raping women in the sinful west, where there's more temptation?

Conversely, why in good "Islamic" nations do women have to be more covered up, when Sharia law, and a Moslem upbrining should have instilled some kind of discipline on men?

If you ask me, I can say what Islam teaches. I am responsible for my deeds and God has not made me responsible for what other Muslim Men and Women do around the globe.

24:51
The response of the true believers, when they are called to Allah and His Rasool that he may judge between them, is only to say: "We hear and we obey." Such are the ones who will attain felicity.

24:52
Only those who obey Allah and His Rasool, have fear of Allah and do good deeds, are the ones who will be the winners.

 

[Montalban]

If you ask me, I can say what Islam teaches. I am responsible for my deeds and God has not made me responsible for what other Muslim Men and Women do around the globe.

24:51
The response of the true believers, when they are called to Allah and His Rasool that he may judge between them, is only to say: "We hear and we obey." Such are the ones who will attain felicity.

24:52
Only those who obey Allah and His Rasool, have fear of Allah and do good deeds, are the ones who will be the winners.

Good enough evasion!

 

[msindiausa]

health class - public school - america

A recent study by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention tells a different story. It shows that more than 50 percent of high school students have not had sex and that the number of young people remaining pure until marriage is increasing. The study also said that of the teens who have had intercourse, one-quarter of them are now choosing to be abstinent.

http://www.rmfc.org/fs/fs0001.html

I will look for a better source, but your less than ten percent seems waaayyyy off, especially to me since I am a teeneager and I know a lot of teenagers.

 

[msindiausa]

I did not say it's the issue, I said it's the excuse many rapists give as to why they commited the rape. Women wearing certain clothing, or revealing clothing can encite lust on any man because that's what women's bodies are designed to do.

Well, that excuse will never hold up in court because too many doctors in this country have shown that rape is an act of violence, not an act of lust. It is never a women's fault even if they are running through the streets half naked. Clothes has nothing to do with rape.

 

[Bookofknowledge]

Good enough evasion!

I don't remember getting a reply from you with a length of 3 words.

Should I take this as a complement, since you have used the word "Good"

"We hear and we obey."

 

[Montalban]

I don't remember getting a reply from you with a length of 3 words.

Should I take this as a complement, since you have used the word "Good"

"We hear and we obey."

I minimise my reply in defenece to you not wishing to engage in the OP's subject.

 

[Teshi]

Sure, so if you think women should cover up, why aren't more Moslem men raping women in the sinful west, where there's more temptation?

Your argument is fundamentally flawed in that lust for sex is not the psychological precursor for rape, lust for power is. So seeing an immodestly dressed woman is unlikely to lead to rape. I can see where it could be said, though, that it may provoke sexually impure thoughts and actions. If I'm spending all day in a candy shop, that doesn't mean I'm going to be driven to steal candy. But I'll probably eventually be drawn to obtain and eat some candy before the day is through...

Anyway, modest dress isn't just about not being a stumbling block for others. It's also about humbling oneself before God, a concept that is common between both Christianity and Islam...it is, for example, why I wear a headscarf when I go to Orthodox churches.

 

[Montalban]

Your argument is fundamentally flawed in that lust for sex is not the psychological precursor for rape, lust for power is. So seeing an immodestly dressed woman is unlikely to lead to rape. I can see where it could be said, though, that it may provoke sexually impure thoughts and actions. If I'm spending all day in a candy shop, that doesn't mean I'm going to be driven to steal candy. But I'll probably eventually be drawn to obtain and eat some candy before the day is through...

Anyway, modest dress isn't just about not being a stumbling block for others. It's also about humbling oneself before God, a concept that is common between both Christianity and Islam...it is, for example, why I wear a headscarf when I go to Orthodox churches.

I don't believe that seeing women scantily clad will lead to rape. Islamic men do.

You're arguing with the wrong person.

I must repeat that I am arguing against the Islamic position... which is based on the idea that if a woman does not cover herself up men won't be able to control themselves.

Read the OP and get back to me.

 

[Teshi]

I don't believe that seeing women scantily clad will lead to rape. Islamic men do.

You're arguing with the wrong person.

I must repeat that I am arguing against the Islamic position... which is based on the idea that if a woman does not cover herself up men won't be able to control themselves.

Read the OP and get back to me.

Can you point me toward a mainstream Islamic source that states that the reason women ought to cover is to stop men from becoming rapists, then, if you are "arguing against the Islamic position"? Without sources, this thread smacks of strawman argumentation.

 

[urnotme]

.

My understanding is that it is an issue, though most say it's not a good excuse.

I think it's a temptation for some men or rape wouldn't include sexual intercourse but people who are supposed to know disagree. http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/news/html/20040811T190000-0500_64401_OBS_PSYCHIATRISTS_SCOFF_AT_BLAIR_S_ARGUMENTS.asp
"A discussion about modesty and about sexual stimulation is an entirely different channel than rape. No matter how you dress, there is nothing in my socialisation that tells me that I am to mount you as a lion would mount a lioness in the jungle.

 

[muslim_convert]

One of the reasons Moslem men make their women cover-up is that they believe men are much more subjected to sexual passions than are men. Thus if a woman covers-up she's protecting both herself, and the man (from being tempted by her).

Given that, how many Moslem men attack women in the west - seeing as they're more constantly exposed to such temptations?

Allah created us with a propensity to eat and enjoy sexual relations. If we didn't enjoy these things we wouldn't be here in the first place. So these are not signs of imperfection in human nature: we are perfectly human.

However, if you foster an environment and lifestyle which seeks to satisfy the insatiable (for example, through sex and eating) then people forget their creator and worship others besides Him. they lower themselves to the level of animals, following their base instincts...or even lower since we have a choice in the matter.

covering for both men and women, is simply dressing modestly in order avoid encouraging this sort of behaviour.

Those who claim to follow Jesus should ask themselves whether Jesus himself would be discouraging people from dressing modestly and approving of a culture which treats the human body as a source of lustful entertainment. Many people, particularly women and children, are suffering because of this and will continue to do so as long as most Christians engage and promote this sort of lifestyle.

salaam

 

[Montalban]

Can you point me toward a mainstream Islamic source that states that the reason women ought to cover is to stop men from becoming rapists, then, if you are "arguing against the Islamic position"? Without sources, this thread smacks of strawman argumentation.

Which Islamic sources do you consider 'mainstream'? Also note Muslimconvert suggests this reason in his post above. As I said earlier, take your time to read the posts in this thread.

And I note you've not accepted that you argued the wrong thing with the wrong person. Still, it's better to just press on, hey?

 

[peaceful soul]

Allah created us with a propensity to eat and enjoy sexual relations. If we didn't enjoy these things we wouldn't be here in the first place. So these are not signs of imperfection in human nature: we are perfectly human.

However, if you foster an environment and lifestyle which seeks to satisfy the insatiable (for example, through sex and eating) then people forget their creator and worship others besides Him. they lower themselves to the level of animals, following their base instincts...or even lower since we have a choice in the matter.

covering for both men and women, is simply dressing modestly in order avoid encouraging this sort of behaviour.

Those who claim to follow Jesus should ask themselves whether Jesus himself would be discouraging people from dressing modestly and approving of a culture which treats the human body as a source of lustful entertainment. Many people, particularly women and children, are suffering because of this and will continue to do so as long as most Christians engage and promote this sort of lifestyle.

salaam

The issue with Jesus has nothing to do with the issue you have been addressed with. The two are unrelated in reagards to the OP. The message of Jesus is different than your Islamic beliefs. If you understood Jesus' message per Bible, you could come to realize that clothes or no clothers is going to keep men or women from ultimately lusting and giving their attention to the other. Islam just tries to pass rules or laws to stop the behavior and not change the heart of the person so that they won't have that desire at all or to a lesser degree.

The issue is not about discoruaging anyone from dressing the way the want to. The objection, as I see it, is the idea that the women have to cover up (religious law) for the sake of the men's inability to be morally and spiritually sound on their own volition. The consensus is that both men and women should have control over their sexual behaviors; therefore, women should not have to do anything extrordinary to keep men honest, like overdressing in some cases. It is that religion dictates this is the main issue. Jesus' teachings is not against modesty. It is against religiosity like Islam.

One final point: if we are perfect, we would have no need for laws; so, covering up or not would be a nonissue.

 

[Montalban]

The issue with Jesus has nothing to do with the issue you have been addressed with. The two are unrelated in reagards to the OP. The message of Jesus is different than your Islamic beliefs. If you understood Jesus' message per Bible, you could come to realize that clothes or no clothers is going to keep men or women from ultimately lusting and giving their attention to the other. Islam just tries to pass rules or laws to stop the behavior and not change the heart of the person so that they won't have that desire at all or to a lesser degree.

The issue is not about discoruaging anyone from dressing the way the want to. The objection, as I see it, is the idea that the women have to cover up (religious law) for the sake of the men's inability to be morally and spiritually sound on their own volition. The consensus is that both men and women should have control over their sexual behaviors; therefore, women should not have to do anything extrordinary to keep men honest, like overdressing in some cases. It is that religion dictates this is the main issue. Jesus' teachings is not against modesty. It is against religiosity like Islam.

One final point: if we are perfect, we would have no need for laws; so, covering up or not would be a nonissue.

Some more thoughts from Moslems on the issue...

5. Hijaab prevents molestation
The reason why Hijaab is prescribed for women is mentioned in the Qur’an in the following verses of Surah Al-Ahzab:

"O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad); that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
[Al-Qur’an 33:59]

The Qur’an says that Hijaab has been prescribed for the women so that they are recognized as modest women and this will also prevent them from being molested.
http://www.irf.net/irf/dtp/dawah_tech/mcqnm3.htm

Further, they directly attribute 'rape' to the lack of modest dress...
"11. USA has one of the highest rates of rape: United States of America is supposed to be one of the most advanced countries of the world. It also has one of the highest rates of rape in any country in the world. According to a FBI report, in the year 1990, every day on an average 1756 cases of rape were committed in USA alone. Later another report said that on an average everyday, 1900 cases of rapes are committed in USA. The year was not mentioned. May be it was 1992 or 1993. May be the Americans got ‘bolder’ in the following years. Consider a scenario where the Islamic hijab is followed in America. Whenever a man looks at a woman and any brazen or unashamed thought comes to his mind, he lowers his gaze. Every woman wears the Islamic hijab, that is the complete body is covered except the face and the hands upto the wrist. After this, if any man commits rape he is given capital punishment. I ask you, in such a scenario, will the rate of rape in America increase, will it remain the same, or will it decrease?"

(Ibid).
Note, also this info can be found at
http://www.islamicvoice.com/august.2002/religion.htm

In a society which shamelessly publicly exposes a woman's body and intimate requirements where nudity somehow symbolizes the expression of a woman's freedom and where the most lustful desires of men are fulfilled unchecked - it is little wonder such an introspection leads many Muslim women to the decision to wear hijab.

http://www.worldofislam.netfirms.com/hijab.html



In response to lust and desire, men look (with desire) at other women while they do not mind that other men do the same to their wives or daughters. The mixing of sexes and absence of hijab destroys the Gheera in men. Islam considers Gheerah an integral part of faith. The dignity of the wife or daughter or any other Muslim woman must be highly respected and defended.
http://www.islamworld.net/hijabvirtue.html

Where promiscuity runs rampant, Islam builds a society where children know their fathers, and fathers are responsible for their wives and children. By severing the loose ties of lust, Islam restores the lasting ties of partnership. Where the sexual society objectifies, Islam humanizes.
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/4482/article6.html

Note; it is to help people with their lusts. And as it's women who need be covered up more so than men (and it's applied more to women), it's because men can't control their lusts.

 

[muslim_convert]

Some more thoughts from Moslems on the issue...

5. Hijaab prevents molestation
The reason why Hijaab is prescribed for women is mentioned in the Qur’an in the following verses of Surah Al-Ahzab:

"O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad); that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
[Al-Qur’an 33:59]

The Qur’an says that Hijaab has been prescribed for the women so that they are recognized as modest women and this will also prevent them from being molested.
http://www.irf.net/irf/dtp/dawah_tech/mcqnm3.htm

Further, they directly attribute 'rape' to the lack of modest dress...
"11. USA has one of the highest rates of rape: United States of America is supposed to be one of the most advanced countries of the world. It also has one of the highest rates of rape in any country in the world. According to a FBI report, in the year 1990, every day on an average 1756 cases of rape were committed in USA alone. Later another report said that on an average everyday, 1900 cases of rapes are committed in USA. The year was not mentioned. May be it was 1992 or 1993. May be the Americans got ‘bolder’ in the following years. Consider a scenario where the Islamic hijab is followed in America. Whenever a man looks at a woman and any brazen or unashamed thought comes to his mind, he lowers his gaze. Every woman wears the Islamic hijab, that is the complete body is covered except the face and the hands upto the wrist. After this, if any man commits rape he is given capital punishment. I ask you, in such a scenario, will the rate of rape in America increase, will it remain the same, or will it decrease?"

(Ibid).
Note, also this info can be found at
http://www.islamicvoice.com/august.2002/religion.htm

In a society which shamelessly publicly exposes a woman's body and intimate requirements where nudity somehow symbolizes the expression of a woman's freedom and where the most lustful desires of men are fulfilled unchecked - it is little wonder such an introspection leads many Muslim women to the decision to wear hijab.

http://www.worldofislam.netfirms.com/hijab.html



In response to lust and desire, men look (with desire) at other women while they do not mind that other men do the same to their wives or daughters. The mixing of sexes and absence of hijab destroys the Gheera in men. Islam considers Gheerah an integral part of faith. The dignity of the wife or daughter or any other Muslim woman must be highly respected and defended.
http://www.islamworld.net/hijabvirtue.html

Where promiscuity runs rampant, Islam builds a society where children know their fathers, and fathers are responsible for their wives and children. By severing the loose ties of lust, Islam restores the lasting ties of partnership. Where the sexual society objectifies, Islam humanizes.
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/4482/article6.html

Note; it is to help people with their lusts. And as it's women who need be covered up more so than men (and it's applied more to women), it's because men can't control their lusts.

thanks montalban

salaams

 

[muslim_convert]

The issue with Jesus has nothing to do with the issue you have been addressed with. The two are unrelated in reagards to the OP. The message of Jesus is different than your Islamic beliefs. If you understood Jesus' message per Bible, you could come to realize that clothes or no clothers is going to keep men or women from ultimately lusting and giving their attention to the other. Islam just tries to pass rules or laws to stop the behavior and not change the heart of the person so that they won't have that desire at all or to a lesser degree.

The issue is not about discoruaging anyone from dressing the way the want to. The objection, as I see it, is the idea that the women have to cover up (religious law) for the sake of the men's inability to be morally and spiritually sound on their own volition. The consensus is that both men and women should have control over their sexual behaviors; therefore, women should not have to do anything extrordinary to keep men honest, like overdressing in some cases. It is that religion dictates this is the main issue. Jesus' teachings is not against modesty. It is against religiosity like Islam.

One final point: if we are perfect, we would have no need for laws; so, covering up or not would be a nonissue.

we are perfectly human.

and you fail to consider that it is not just womman but men as well who are required to cover.

And we both have to cover for the sake of Allah! we trust in His wisdom and guidance, and certainly not yours.

salaams