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Lusting

Bookofknowledge

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14:3
Those who prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter, and hinder (men) from the path of Allah (i.e. Islam) and seek crookedness therein - they are far astray.

24:30
Enjoin the believing men to lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that is chaster for them. Surely Allah is well aware of their actions.

24:31
Likewise enjoin the believing women to lower their gaze and guard their modesty; not to display their beauty and ornaments except what normally appears thereof; let them draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their charms except to their husbands, their fathers, their fathers-in-law, their own sons, their stepsons, their own brothers, their nephews on either brothers' or sisters' sides, their own womenfolk, their own slaves, male attendants who lack sexual desires or small children who have no carnal knowledge of women. Also enjoin them not to strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden trinkets. And O believers! Turn to Allah in repentance, all of you, about your past mistakes, so that you may attain salvation.
 
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Montalban

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kiwimac said:
Montalban,

Is there nothing good in Islam as far as you are concerned? I ask this because over and over again, you attack Islam and you never, as far as I can tell have anything positive to say.

Kiwimac
Start a thread
"Positive things to say about Islam"
See what happens. ;)

Preferrably though you'll address your mistaks on the Aisha-age post first
 
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Montalban

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evange said:
as a Christian, I choose to dress modestly to help keep my Christian brothers from sinning. But esentially, lust is their problem, not mine. I just choose to be modest because I want to help. If I were to choose to dress provacatively, it would be up to the men to keep their lust in check.

Blaming women is the dumbet idea ever. Even if I were to be naked infront of a man, it is still up to the man's mind to choose if he wants to dwell on it, or fight the temptation.

So then if a muslim man sees a woman who is not covered up, and he lusts for her, it is her fault? I think the man should keep his hormones in check.

And what about women who lust? We're not immune you know. Maybe somedays I wish men were covered head to toe so that I wouldent lust for them. Am I not etitled to the same courtesy?

I've read Muslim scholars who believe women don't lust, or are not as lustful as men; obviously they all just lie there watching the ceiling paint peeling.
 
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kiwimac

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Montalban said:
Start a thread
"Positive things to say about Islam"
See what happens. ;)

Preferrably though you'll address your mistaks on the Aisha-age post first

No mistake on my part but I'll give you .5 of a point for dogged determination. Fact of the matter is Montalban you do not like Islam, thats fine you don't have to. What galls me is that even when you are apprised of the fact that there is considerable discussion about Ayesha's age, you ignore it.

Your option to do so but I find it a sadness.

Kiwimac
 
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muslim_convert

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The following text gives a good explanation as to why muslim men and women are better able to avoid the lustful temptations thrown up by the Western lifestyle. Thanks, once again Montalban for your question.



http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/humanrelations/womeninislam/womeninsociety.html

Lowering the Eyes

Islam requires its male and female adherents to avoid illicit sexual relations at all costs. Because the desire to have sexual relationships originates with the look that one person gives another, Islam prohibits a person from casting amorous glances towards another. This is the principle of ghadd al-basar (lowering the eyes). Since it is impossible for people to have their eyes fixed constantly to the ground and inconceivable that a man will never see a woman or a woman will never see a man, Islam absolves from blame the first chance look, but prohibits one from casting a second look or continuing to stare at a face which one finds attractive at first sight.

The following traditions of the Prophet (peace be upon him) offer us guidance in this regard: Jarir says,

"I asked the Prophet what I should do if I happened to cast a look (at a woman) by chance. The Prophet replied, 'Turn your eyes away.' " According to Buraidah, the Prophet told the future fourth khalif, 'Ali, not to cast a second look, for the first look was pardonable but the second was prohibited.

However, there are certain circumstances in which it is permissible for a man to look at another woman. Such circumstances may arise when a woman is obliged to be treated by a male doctor, or has to appear before a judge as a witness, or when a woman is trapped inside a burning house, or is drowning, or when a woman's life or honour is in danger. In such cases, even the prohibited parts of the body of the woman may be seen or touched, and it is not only lawful but obligatory on a man to rescue her from danger, whatever physical contact it may entail. What is required by Islam in such a situation is that as far as possible the man should keep his intentions pure. But if in spite of that his emotions are a little excited naturally, it is not blameworthy for him to have looked at such a woman, since having contact with her body was not intentional but was necessitated by circumstances, and it is not possible for a man to suppress his natural urges completely.

The Shari'ah also allows a man to look at a woman with the object of reaching a decision about whether he should marry her or not. The following traditions explain the matter further: Mughirah ibn Shu'bah says,

"I sent a message to a woman asking for her hand. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said to me, 'Have a look at her for that will enhance love and mutual regard between you.' "

Abu Hurairah says that he was sitting with the Prophet when a man came and said that he intended to marry a woman from among the Ansar (Helpers). The Prophet asked him if he had seen her. He replied in the negative. The Prophet told him to go and have a look at her because the Ansar often had a defect in their eyes. According to Jabir ibn 'Abdullah, the Prophet said that when a man sent a request to a woman for her hand in marriage, he should have a look at her to see if there was anything in her which made him inclined to marry her.

It is thus clear that no man is prohibited from having a look at a woman as such, but that the real idea behind the prohibition is to prevent the evil of illicit intercourse. Therefore what the Prophet has prohibited is only such casting of the eyes as is not essential, as does not serve any social purpose, and as is loaded with sexual motives. This command applies to both Muslim men and Muslim women and is not confined to only one sex.

Maulana Abu'l-A'la Maududi has made a fine psychological distinction, however, between women looking at men and men looking at women. The man, he says,

"...is by nature aggressive. If a thing appeals to him, he is urged from within to acquire it. On the other hand, the woman's nature is one of inhibition and escape. Unless her nature is totally corrupted, she can never become so aggressive, bold, and fearless, as to make the first advances towards the male who has attracted her. In view of this distinction, the Legislator (the Prophet) does not regard a woman's looking at other men to be as harmful as a man's looking at other women. In several traditions it has been reported that the Prophet (peace be upon him) let 'A'isha see a performance given by negroes on the occasion of the 'Id. This shows that there is no absolute prohibition on women looking at other men. What is prohibited is for women to sit in the same gathering together with men and stare at them, or look at them in a manner which may lead to evil results. "

The Prophet (peace be upon him) told Fatimah, daughter of Qais, to pass her 'iddah (waiting term), in the house of Ibn Maktum, the same blind Companion from whom Umm Salamah had been instructed to observe purdah. Qadi Abu Bakr ibn al-'Arabi has related in his Ahkam al- Qur'an that Fatimah, daughter of Qais, wanted to pass her waiting term in the house of Umm Sharik. The Prophet did not approve of this for the reason that the house was visited by many people. Therefore he told her to stay in the house of Ibn Maktum who was blind, where she could stay without observing purdah.

This shows that the real object of the Prophet was to reduce the chances of any mischief occurring. That is why the lady was not allowed to stay in a house where the chances of possible mischief were greater but allowed to stay in a house where they were less. On the other hand, where there was no such need, women were prohibited from sitting in the same place face to face with other men.

The real object of ghadd al-basar (lowering the eyes) is to stop people with evil intentions from casting lewd looks at others. It is common knowledge that a person turns their eyes towards another person innocently in the beginning. If the latter is attractive, the former may go on casting glances and thus drift towards the precipice of sexual attraction and ultimately fornication or adultery. Islam encourages regulated love in order to build up happy family lives since it is healthy families that provide the blocks to construct a healthy society; but it abhors promiscuity which ruins people's family lives and seriously damages people through the ultimate disaster of illicit sexual relationships developing between its adherents. Islam blocks the path that finally leads to active temptation by prohibiting the casting of looks by one person at another except when they do so by chance.


salaam
 
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Montalban

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kiwimac said:
No mistake on my part but I'll give you .5 of a point for dogged determination. Fact of the matter is Montalban you do not like Islam, thats fine you don't have to. What galls me is that even when you are apprised of the fact that there is considerable discussion about Ayesha's age, you ignore it.

Your option to do so but I find it a sadness.

Kiwimac
Muslim Convert's just said on the Aisha thread that a majority believe she was nine!
http://www.christianforums.com/t233...married-the-prophet.html&page=15#post20471568
Post #141

Ignoring this, and your own evidence is I believe sad. What does this say also for someone wanting to continually defend a man who had intercourse with a child?
 
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Montalban

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LibertyChic said:
Done. Care to join us?
Care to join us on the Aisha thread? Or do you think it's sad that someone thinks it's wrong that a man had sex with a child.

I ask also, in light that I have responded to your thread.
 
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LibertyChic

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Montalban said:
Care to join us on the Aisha thread? Or do you think it's sad that someone thinks it's wrong that a man had sex with a child.

I ask also, in light that I have responded to your thread.

Happy to. Give me some time to catch up, as I haven't been following that thread.
 
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Montalban

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LibertyChic said:
Happy to. Give me some time to catch up, as I haven't been following that thread.
It's quite extensive.
For the most part it was about whether or not Muhammed had sex with a nine year old.

I maintain, evidenced on Moslem scholars and the Hadith, that he did.

Muslim Convert has now agreed that a majority of scholars believe this so.

Kiwimac has quoted a cite saying this, but still believes it means something entirely different.

We have not really moved onto whether this is 'evil' behaviour or not.
 
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Bookofknowledge

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sethad said:
anybody who says that pedophilism and rape isnt evil needs to be locked up in a mental ward with no windows. or maybe a prison.


what should we do with that person who comes and says to those who were legally married 1400 years ago and their marriage was accepted by the parents, the community at large and law of land.

If law of land changes today will you be able to put the people in a mental ward with no windows who gets married at early or old age with the consent of bride and her parents?
 
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evange

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I think you ahve to take into account that what is considered modest dress is not constant.

For example, some women in africa go topless, and it is considered ok, it doesn't make themen over there overly lustful. I wear what I consider to be normal western dress, jeans, shirts, etc. I don't think I cause lust, yet I'd probibly be stoned if I were in the middle east.

What is Modest and what causes a person to lust I think is all culturally relative. I guess maybe you could say people can be desensitized to nudity.

A woman covering her entire body with a loose garment and showing only her face and hands in an islamic country is equal to a woman wearing a one-piece bathing suit with a sarong arround her in brasil.
 
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Montalban

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sethad said:
anybody who says that pedophilism and rape isnt evil needs to be locked up in a mental ward with no windows. or maybe a prison.
I agree. Though I wouldn't define Muhammed as a pedophile (based on a very narrow definition), the fact he had sex with a child is reprehensible. Those that defend this, might easily be seen the same way.
 
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Arthra

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All you have to really do regarding looking at standards of modesty is to go back into our own culture say in America, Europe and uh Australia ohhh about a hundred and five years ago whn women could only reveal up to their ankles and wrists:

http://romancereaderatheart.com/victorian/timeline/1880/

- Art
 
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Montalban

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Arthra said:
All you have to really do regarding looking at standards of modesty is to go back into our own culture say in America, Europe and uh Australia ohhh about a hundred and five years ago whn women could only reveal up to their ankles and wrists:
- Art
And this is relevant to al-lah given laws how?
 
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Bookofknowledge

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evange said:
What is Modest and what causes a person to lust I think is all culturally relative. I guess maybe you could say people can be desensitized to nudity.

Cultures have boundries but belief doesn't hence those who believe will dress accordingly those who hesitate will be like

"bla.........bla bla..........bla bla bla.......bla bla.......bla".

Can't do much about them other them making sure they are educated.
 
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evange

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Bookofknowledge said:
Cultures have boundries but belief doesn't hence those who believe will dress accordingly those who hesitate will be like

"bla.........bla bla..........bla bla bla.......bla bla.......bla".

Can't do much about them other them making sure they are educated.

Um... what?
 
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