Luke 13:3 being ripped out of context to teach Repent Of Your Sins

[tdidymas]

I'll reiterate that no matter what rituals, mindsets or feigned legal obedience never made anyone sinless

The attempts can very easily however turn people into lying hypocrites, and usually does because people think such attempts does make them sinless, even on a temporary basis and this is never the honest case.

The evil conscious of no one is ever legally obedient or faithful. It's not even remotely possible

I don't see your point. It looks like you're still arguing against sinlessness which I'm not advocating.

 

[Hoping2]

I'll reiterate that no matter what rituals, mindsets or feigned legal obedience never made anyone sinless

Were that really the case, Peter's commandment in Acts 2:38 was either deceptive or ignorant.
He said..."Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
If just one person was baptized since then, that person had no sin...because of their baptism.
Of course we must maintain our walk in the light to remain cleansed of sin.

The attempts can very easily however turn people into lying hypocrites, and usually does because people think such attempts does make them sinless, even on a temporary basis and this is never the honest case.

Then you don't think new converts should be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins ?

The evil conscious of no one is ever legally obedient or faithful. It's not even remotely possible

How can anyone reborn of God's seed have an evil conscience ?
They have a divine nature, thanks to the inhabitation of the Holy Ghost.

 

[David Lamb]

Were that really the case, Peter's commandment in Acts 2:38 was either deceptive or ignorant.
He said..."Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
If just one person was baptized since then, that person had no sin...because of their baptism.
Of course we must maintain our walk in the light to remain cleansed of sin.

Then you don't think new converts should be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins ?

How can anyone reborn of God's seed have an evil conscience ?
They have a divine nature, thanks to the inhabitation of the Holy Ghost.

If people who are baptized have no sin after their baptism, then why does John write to Christians:

“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” (1Jo 1:8 NKJV)

What about that word "for" in Acts 2:38? One dictionary gives the following as an explanation of what that little word means in the context: ""For" (as used in Ac 2:38 "for the forgiveness … ") could have two meanings. If you saw a poster saying "Jesse James wanted for robbery," "for" could mean Jesse is wanted so he can commit a robbery, or is wanted because he has committed a robbery. The later sense is the correct one. So too in this passage, the word "for" signifies an action in the past. Otherwise, it would violate the entire tenor of the NT teaching on salvation by grace and not by works." In other words, baptism is a sign that we have been forgiven.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Were that really the case, Peter's commandment in Acts 2:38 was either deceptive or ignorant.
He said..."Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
If just one person was baptized since then, that person had no sin...because of their baptism.
Of course we must maintain our walk in the light to remain cleansed of sin.

The issue remains. No person sins in and of themselves. No person other than Jesus was/is sinless

People don't have sins counted against them.

The DEVILS do have sins counted against them, always.

People and the tempter (or his own) are in the same pair of shoes. Mark 4:15, Romans 11:32

When we are advised to repent, it is exactly to turn away from devils/demonic activity. Which includes lying hypocrisy I might add. Acts 26:18

No amount of repentance makes anyone sinless. It might make some more honest

Your position has zero/O accounting for the "other parties" to sin.

Not to mention the delusion of sinlessness

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

I don't see your point. It looks like you're still arguing against sinlessness which I'm not advocating.

I'm advocating for honesty. If we honestly say we are present tense sinners, that's honest

No amount of repentance changes that fact. It might make a few more honest, particularly if they manage to connect their sins to the devil

 

[tdidymas]

I'm advocating for honesty. If we honestly say we are present tense sinners, that's honest

No amount of repentance changes that fact. It might make a few more honest, particularly if they manage to connect their sins to the devil

And yet, an ongoing attitude and lifestyle of repentance from sin and movement toward God is the Christian way of life, is it not? No amount of honesty can change that, either. Honesty is good, confession of sins is good and necessary for repentance and healing. And the first repentance is faith that Jesus is a healer and deliverer from sin, is it not?

According to Rom. 6 we are delivered from sin, which means as I read it, that we are no longer slaves to the sinful nature. Although true that the principle of sin (sin nature) still resides in us, since "the body is dead because of sin," we are not slaves to it, since "whoever the Son sets free is free indeed" (Jn. 8:34), and "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin, for he that is dead is freed from sin" (Rom. 6:6-7).

It doesn't make us sinless, but it does inform us that we have the power of the Spirit to overcome addictions and sinful habits. "The righteous shall live by faith" means as I read it, that trusting in Christ to deliver us from what we know to be sin that leads to eternal condemnation incurs real deliverance, so that we can "walk in newness of life," pleasing God in all we do by doing everything for the purpose of glorifying Him. "Let your light so shine that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven."

So then, I'm advocating for both honesty and repentance, with a view to spiritual maturity so that we can do what Jesus and the apostles command Christians to do (for example in Gal. 6:1-10 and 2 Pet. 1:3-11). We can confess we're sinners, but we also should be confessing we're saints, since the apostles declare we are.

 

[PastorKeith]

A lot of people are going to hell thinking they will be in heaven because they believe they turned from their sins + believe, but thats damnable. you cannot add works to salvation.

You have no idea how many people are going to hell, and its quite prideful to make that statement. If you say we must believe to be saved and believe alone, good, then all who believe are saved.... if a portion of those believers ALSO work towards repentance and fighting against sin... GOOOOOOOD. All the better. You seem to claim if you believe AND repent you go to hell, how absurd.

 

[PastorKeith]

Paul never once refers to the brethren as sinners, only as saints.

I hate the phrase "I am a sinner saved by grace"

Christians are not sinners, we are saints, justified by His Righteousness. Once you identify yourself as a sinner that's all you will do... sin your life away. Your identity as a Christian is not that of a sinner. You are a royal child of God, adopted into the family of the Most High, set apart and chosen. Make that your identity, and live rightly.

 

[Hoping2]

If people who are baptized have no sin after their baptism, then why does John write to Christians:
“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” (1Jo 1:8 NKJV)

John is writing to the faithful, but about BOTH those who walk in the light-God and those who walk in darkness-sin.
Verses 6, 8, and 10 pertain to those who are still in darkness-sin.
Sinners can't honestly say they have no sin.
But those who walk in the light, which is God, can say they have no sin, as there is no sin in God.

What about that word "for" in Acts 2:38? One dictionary gives the following as an explanation of what that little word means in the context: ""For" (as used in Ac 2:38 "for the forgiveness … ") could have two meanings. If you saw a poster saying "Jesse James wanted for robbery," "for" could mean Jesse is wanted so he can commit a robbery, or is wanted because he has committed a robbery. The later sense is the correct one. So too in this passage, the word "for" signifies an action in the past. Otherwise, it would violate the entire tenor of the NT teaching on salvation by grace and not by works." In other words, baptism is a sign that we have been forgiven.

"Could have" two meanings.
But the context is clear in Acts 2:38, that for the remission of past sins one must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
The context is even more clear in Acts 22:16..." And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

BTW, the only "works" written against by Paul were the works of the Law...circumcision, dietary rules, feast keeping, sabbath keeping, etc.
To conflate "works" with repentance or baptism would also reduce mere resistance to temptation as something to be avoided at all costs !
What would that produce ?
A bunch of adulterers, murderers, liars, and thieves, calling themselves "Christians".
We don't want that to happen, do we ?

 

[Hoping2]

The issue remains. No person sins in and of themselves. No person other than Jesus was/is sinless

Wasn't He sinless in and of Himself ?
As the faithful are now "in Him", we have all the same strengths Jesus had to resist temptation.

People don't have sins counted against them.

Then the day of judgement is a farce.

The DEVILS do have sins counted against them, always.

They sure will, and a lake of fire awaits all who sin like they do.

People and the tempter (or his own) are in the same pair of shoes. Mark 4:15, Romans 11:32

Only the unfaithful walk as the devil walks.
The faithful walk as Jesus walked.

When we are advised to repent, it is exactly to turn away from devils/demonic activity. Which includes lying hypocrisy I might add. Acts 26:18

It is our own sin that we are commanded to turn from.
Blaming the devil for one's actions is a non-starter.

No amount of repentance makes anyone sinless. It might make some more honest

If one repents of-turns from sin, they are by definition a non-sinner.

Your position has zero/O accounting for the "other parties" to sin.

I will only be judged for what sins I commit, not those of others.

Not to mention the delusion of sinlessness

A delusion held by Jesus and all the writers of the epistles, apparently.
Jesus...
“Be ye therefore perfect, even as you Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matt 5:48)
“I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." (John 17:22-23)
Paul...
“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom. 6:6-7)
"Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness." (Rom 6:18)
"But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life." (Rom 6:22)
Paul to Titus...
"Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:15-16)
James...
"But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing." (James 1:4)
Peter...
"Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)
John...
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” (1 John 3:4-9)
“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.” (1 John 5:18)

 

[tdidymas]

Paul never once refers to the brethren as sinners, only as saints.

I hate the phrase "I am a sinner saved by grace"

Christians are not sinners, we are saints, justified by His Righteousness. Once you identify yourself as a sinner that's all you will do... sin your life away. Your identity as a Christian is not that of a sinner. You are a royal child of God, adopted into the family of the Most High, set apart and chosen. Make that your identity, and live rightly.

"Once you identify yourself as a sinner that's all you will do" - this is an exaggeration. We say that we are sinners not to continue on a sinful path, but rather to acknowledge that we aren't "perfect" (in the way that most people think of it). "No one is perfect" means that people still stumble and make mistakes, just as James acknowledged "we all stumble in many ways."

On the other hand, we do need to declare that we are saints, since the NT calls us that, even though it seems a tall order. Shooting for perfection is a good thing, but perfectionism (demanding a perfection that is beyond a reasonable goal) is evil. Perhaps there is a fine line between them. I think Jesus' statement "be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect" is the same as trying to love people beyond yourself, but not as a perfectionist. We aren't sinless, but we are saints. We just need to be honest, real, transparent, sincere, and gracious.

 

[PastorKeith]

"Once you identify yourself as a sinner that's all you will do" - this is an exaggeration. We say that we are sinners not to continue on a sinful path, but rather to acknowledge that we aren't "perfect" (in the way that most people think of it). "No one is perfect" means that people still stumble and make mistakes, just as James acknowledged "we all stumble in many ways."

On the other hand, we do need to declare that we are saints, since the NT calls us that, even though it seems a tall order. Shooting for perfection is a good thing, but perfectionism (demanding a perfection that is beyond a reasonable goal) is evil. Perhaps there is a fine line between them. I think Jesus' statement "be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect" is the same as trying to love people beyond yourself, but not as a perfectionist. We aren't sinless, but we are saints. We just need to be honest, real, transparent, sincere, and gracious.

My broader point, is our identity is not tied to what WE do, but what Jesus Did. We are not sinners, because we are Justified. If this were a criminal hearing and we were standing before a judge each day for the sins of that day, we would walk out innocent of all charges, because Jesus already paid the price.

Being a Saint is a breeze when you realize you have nothing to do with it.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

As the faithful are now "in Him", we have all the same strengths Jesus had to resist temptation.

I'll probe you here just for fun. Do you think Jesus had sinful or evil thoughts, you know, like we all do?

Will save this one for later: "If one repents of-turns from sin, they are by definition a non-sinner."

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

And yet, an ongoing attitude and lifestyle of repentance from sin and movement toward God is the Christian way of life, is it not? No amount of honesty can change that, either. Honesty is good, confession of sins is good and necessary for repentance and healing. And the first repentance is faith that Jesus is a healer and deliverer from sin, is it not?

According to Rom. 6 we are delivered from sin, which means as I read it, that we are no longer slaves to the sinful nature. Although true that the principle of sin (sin nature) still resides in us, since "the body is dead because of sin," we are not slaves to it, since "whoever the Son sets free is free indeed" (Jn. 8:34), and "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin, for he that is dead is freed from sin" (Rom. 6:6-7).

It doesn't make us sinless, but it does inform us that we have the power of the Spirit to overcome addictions and sinful habits. "The righteous shall live by faith" means as I read it, that trusting in Christ to deliver us from what we know to be sin that leads to eternal condemnation incurs real deliverance, so that we can "walk in newness of life," pleasing God in all we do by doing everything for the purpose of glorifying Him. "Let your light so shine that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven."

So then, I'm advocating for both honesty and repentance, with a view to spiritual maturity so that we can do what Jesus and the apostles command Christians to do (for example in Gal. 6:1-10 and 2 Pet. 1:3-11). We can confess we're sinners, but we also should be confessing we're saints, since the apostles declare we are.

As we've observed from the start of this brief exchange, you have zero accounting for our adversary in these equations.

 

[tdidymas]

My broader point, is our identity is not tied to what WE do, but what Jesus Did. We are not sinners, because we are Justified. If this were a criminal hearing and we were standing before a judge each day for the sins of that day, we would walk out innocent of all charges, because Jesus already paid the price.

Being a Saint is a breeze when you realize you have nothing to do with it.

You're talking about a theory (however true) that God sees us through the works of Jesus, in which God declares us not guilty, and so our sins are forgiven. Yea! However, let's be honest and face the truth about the real condition of our souls. You can talk hype all day and night, but it's what you DO that speaks louder than words. Do you actually think that in the real world in times of trials and tribulations that you actually do the same things that Jesus did, and you need no correction whatsoever? You're a perfect saint, and you never make mistakes or do anything wrong? You never fall short of being a perfect witness of Christ's integrity?

 

[tdidymas]

As we've observed from the start of this brief exchange, you have zero accounting for our adversary in these equations.

1. who's "we"?
2. what exactly did you observe?
3. what do you mean by "accounting for our adversary"?
4. what do you mean by "equations"?
5. why haven't you asked any questions about this before?

It appears to me that you find it impossible to answer what I said previously, and so your strategy is to deflect and confuse. If you wish to continue this conversation, then please clarify your point.

 

[Hoping2]

"Once you identify yourself as a sinner that's all you will do" - this is an exaggeration. We say that we are sinners not to continue on a sinful path, but rather to acknowledge that we aren't "perfect" (in the way that most people think of it). "No one is perfect" means that people still stumble and make mistakes, just as James acknowledged "we all stumble in many ways."

On the other hand, we do need to declare that we are saints, since the NT calls us that, even though it seems a tall order. Shooting for perfection is a good thing, but perfectionism (demanding a perfection that is beyond a reasonable goal) is evil. Perhaps there is a fine line between them. I think Jesus' statement "be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect" is the same as trying to love people beyond yourself, but not as a perfectionist. We aren't sinless, but we are saints. We just need to be honest, real, transparent, sincere, and gracious.

If you could be perfectly obedient to God, would you ?

 

[Hoping2]

I'll probe you here just for fun. Do you think Jesus had sinful or evil thoughts, you know, like we all do?

Jesus had the same temptations we do.
And like we can, since His resurrection, He resisted the temptations.

Will save this one for later: "If one repents of-turns from sin, they are by definition a non-sinner."

If one repents from digging a hole, they quit digging the hole.

 

[Hoping2]

My broader point, is our identity is not tied to what WE do, but what Jesus Did. We are not sinners, because we are Justified. If this were a criminal hearing and we were standing before a judge each day for the sins of that day, we would walk out innocent of all charges, because Jesus already paid the price.

Being a Saint is a breeze when you realize you have nothing to do with it.

No sense maintaining my repentance from doing drugs then.
I think it a mistake to tie your identity to Christ, if you are not obeying Christ.

 

[PastorKeith]

You're talking about a theory (however true) that God sees us through the works of Jesus, in which God declares us not guilty, and so our sins are forgiven. Yea! However, let's be honest and face the truth about the real condition of our souls. You can talk hype all day and night, but it's what you DO that speaks louder than words. Do you actually think that in the real world in times of trials and tribulations that you actually do the same things that Jesus did, and you need no correction whatsoever? You're a perfect saint, and you never make mistakes or do anything wrong? You never fall short of being a perfect witness of Christ's integrity?

Of course I fall short of Jesus, but that has zero to do with my identity. Or yours.