Lucifer was not the highest ranked angel in heaven

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We are told in scripture that he was a cherubim. I believe the seraphim order of angels were higher than he was. I think the angels that surround the throne of God proclaiming "Holy Holy Holy" in Revelation were seraphim and were higher in rank than he was.

Do you believe he was the highest angel in heaven before the creation of earth and man? Why?
 
I's2C
I's2C
With our limited writings on the hierarchy because records were destroyed through time because of people worshiping them. Seraphim have 1 purpose and that is to guard the Throne of GOD; they were not created for any other reason and do not have free will. Lucifer who was created with free-will co-equal with Michael as Cherubim who covered the MERCY SEAT (CHRIST). They are highest in the realm just under the GOD HEAD.
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I's2C
I's2C
Satan earned his way to this position and was perfect in all his ways until inequity was found in him. Another story for another time is that GOD knew the downfall would occur for if HE didnt HE would not have the need for the 2 Cherubim or for that matter the mercy seat itself.
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Jonaitis

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Ezekiel 28:14
You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones (NIV)
It seems to me that Ezekiel 28:11-19 is a lamentation, embued with poetic language, concerning the King of Tyre, identified by Josephus as Ithobaal III who was said to reign between 591–573 BCE before falling into the hands of the Babylonians:
"Son of man, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre..."
- Ezekiel 29:12
It seems that God tore down his throne through the hands of Nebuchadnezzar.
 
Lulav
Lulav
Notice in that passage there is a Prince of Tyre and a King. One is human and the other is not.
And the one reads that he was in the Garden of God. There were only three there besides the LORD< Adam, Eve and the serpent.
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IceJad

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We are told in scripture that he was a cherubim. I believe the seraphim order of angels were higher than he was. I think the angels that surround the throne of God proclaiming "Holy Holy Holy" in Revelation were seraphim and were higher in rank than he was.

Do you believe he was the highest angel in heaven before the creation of earth and man? Why?

I believe angels don't really have an authority tier so speak of. They may have classification in some books of the Bible, however all answer direct to God. The difference in class merely denotes how close to the throne of God. When God tasks an angel regardless of the class they are bestowed with all of the authority to complete it. In that moment they are the highest authority on the task. Well that is just my understanding.
 
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I believe angels don't really have an authority tier so speak of. They may have classification in some books of the Bible, however all answer direct to God. The difference in class merely denotes how close to the throne of God. When God tasks an angel regardless of the class they are bestowed with all of the authority to complete it. In that moment they are the highest authority on the task. Well that is just my understanding.
Thanks for your insight.
 
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BobRyan

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We are told in scripture that he was a cherubim. I believe the seraphim order of angels were higher than he was. I think the angels that surround the throne of God proclaiming "Holy Holy Holy" in Revelation were seraphim and were higher in rank than he was.

Do you believe he was the highest angel in heaven before the creation of earth and man? Why?
Ezek 28 tells us that he was a "covering cherub" meaning he was one of the two angels that stood above the ark/mercy-seat in the immediate presence of God.

Today Gabriell stands in that highest position replacing Lucifer.
 
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Jonaitis

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@Lulav
"You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings."
- Ezekiel 28:13
  1. Eden (also known as Ehden) is a mountainous city/region in Lebanon going back thousands of years.
  2. Biblical references describe Lebanon, which covers the upperpart of Canaan, as rich with natural resources and beauty (Isaiah 60:13).
  3. Some biblical scholars think that "Eden" in Genesis 2-3 may be referring to this specific region in Lebanon, because of its splendor and ancient extra-biblical references.
When I was a young-earth creationist, I had hoped to uncover the location of Eden somewhere in the Phoenician region, given its ancient references outside the Scriptures.

The fact that Ezekiel prophesies against the 'king' and 'prince' of a capital (that is, Tyre), which is an epithet given to ancient kings (ex. king of Jerusalem, king of Samaria, etc), shows that this is a real person who ruled the region surrounding it.

We should treat these "angelic" descriptions as poetic.
 
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Lulav

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@Lulav

  1. Eden (also known as Ehden) is a mountainous city/region in Lebanon going back thousands of years.
  2. Biblical references describe Lebanon, which covers the upperpart of Canaan, as rich with natural resources and beauty (Isaiah 60:13).
  3. Some biblical scholars think that "Eden" in Genesis 2-3 may be referring to this specific region in Lebanon, because of its splendor and ancient extra-biblical references.
When I was a young-earth creationist, I had hoped to uncover the location of Eden somewhere in the Phoenician region, given its ancient references outside the Scriptures.

The fact that Ezekiel prophesies against the 'king' and 'prince' of a capital (that is, Tyre), which is an epithet given to ancient kings (ex. king of Jerusalem, king of Samaria, etc), shows that this is a real person who ruled the region surrounding it.

We should treat these "angelic" descriptions as poetic.
How about in Daniel, I don't think he thought these as poetic.

10:1In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a thing was revealed unto Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar; and the thing was true, but the time appointed was long: and he understood the thing, and had understanding of the vision.


2 In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks. 3 I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled. 4 And in the four and twentieth day of the first month, as I was by the side of the great river, which is Hiddekel; 5 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz: 6 His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.
7 And I Daniel alone saw the vision: for the men that were with me saw not the vision; but a great quaking fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves.
8
Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength.
9 Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground.

10 And, behold, an hand touched me, which set me upon my knees and upon the palms of my hands. 11 And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling.

12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.

13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. 14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.........


18Then there came again and touched me one like the appearance of a man, and he strengthened me, 19 And said, O man greatly beloved, fear not: peace be unto thee, be strong, yea, be strong. And when he had spoken unto me, I was strengthened, and said, Let my lord speak; for thou hast strengthened me. 20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come. 21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
 
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Jonaitis

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How about in Daniel, I don't think he thought these as poetic.

10:1In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a thing was revealed unto Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar; and the thing was true, but the time appointed was long: and he understood the thing, and had understanding of the vision.


2 In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks. 3 I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled. 4 And in the four and twentieth day of the first month, as I was by the side of the great river, which is Hiddekel; 5 Then I lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and behold a certain man clothed in linen, whose loins were girded with fine gold of Uphaz: 6 His body also was like the beryl, and his face as the appearance of lightning, and his eyes as lamps of fire, and his arms and his feet like in colour to polished brass, and the voice of his words like the voice of a multitude.
7 And I Daniel alone saw the vision: for the men that were with me saw not the vision; but a great quaking fell upon them, so that they fled to hide themselves.
8
Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength.
9 Yet heard I the voice of his words: and when I heard the voice of his words, then was I in a deep sleep on my face, and my face toward the ground.

10 And, behold, an hand touched me, which set me upon my knees and upon the palms of my hands. 11 And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling.

12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.

13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. 14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.........


18Then there came again and touched me one like the appearance of a man, and he strengthened me, 19 And said, O man greatly beloved, fear not: peace be unto thee, be strong, yea, be strong. And when he had spoken unto me, I was strengthened, and said, Let my lord speak; for thou hast strengthened me. 20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come. 21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
In my opinion, Daniel is not historically reliable, except in describing certain events happening during the author's time.
 
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Lulav

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In my opinion, Daniel is not historically reliable, except in describing certain events happening during the author's time.
Really? God calls him 'righteous' in the book of Ezekiel.
He is called a Prophet by Jesus in Matthew
Also his prophecies are referred to by Jesus in Mark and Luke
 
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Jonaitis

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Really? God calls him 'righteous' in the book of Ezekiel.
He is called a Prophet by Jesus in Matthew
Also his prophecies are referred to by Jesus in Mark and Luke
I'd rather explain this over PM or in controversial theology, as this is not the proper place to discuss such unorthodox views.

I cannot be convinced that Daniel even existed. Our Lord Jesus likely referenced the author's works for the sake of His audience, since they took its words to be prophetically true. God, in my view, can quote religious texts of various traditions to point to Himself, since they all originate from His divine providence and care.
 
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Lulav

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You can PM me, nP. :)
 
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It probably won't be edifying, but rather discouraging.
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Lulav
Lulav
I don't mind, I'm open to all understandings, doesn't mean I'll agree but I'd love to learn your perspective.
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