Loving and Merciful God???

[onthegallow]

Ok, I want to explore Satan and the angels. They, according to the bible, were with God in heaven. They rebelled against God, this should show that they have a will to do right or wrong. Now, this means that some of them have fallen just as man. I find that interesting. They are bound to eternal fire, and damnation. Where is their forgiveness and mercy plan? Where is there a choice to come back to God? Does God love his enemies? Does God leave the 99 to after the one or has God given up hope? Does God know the future, and therefore not try to find a way for them to come back to Him? If they have a will to chose wrong, then they have a will to also choose right, just like we do wrong all the time, but we can choose whats right and realize that it was wrong. God so loved the world that he gave his son...where is the love shown to fallen angels, as such that he has shown for fallen man, who is yet lower than the angels? In revelation, they are future condemned...WHERE IS THE LOVE AND MERCY IN THAT!!?? Apparently, God has seperate standards, and different love. He sends a scapegoat for one kind, but pure hell in the future for the others.

 

[aiki]

Ok, I want to explore Satan and the angels. They, according to the bible, were with God in heaven. They rebelled against God, this should show that they have a will to do right or wrong. Now, this means that some of them have fallen just as man. I find that interesting. They are bound to eternal fire, and damnation. Where is their forgiveness and mercy plan? Where is there a choice to come back to God? Does God love his enemies? Does God leave the 99 to after the one or has God given up hope? Does God know the future, and therefore not try to find a way for them to come back to Him? If they have a will to chose wrong, then they have a will to also choose right, just like we do wrong all the time, but we can choose whats right and realize that it was wrong. God so loved the world that he gave his son...where is the love shown to fallen angels, as such that he has shown for fallen man, who is yet lower than the angels? In revelation, they are future condemned...WHERE IS THE LOVE AND MERCY IN THAT!!?? Apparently, God has seperate standards, and different love. He sends a scapegoat for one kind, but pure hell in the future for the others.

You're comparing apples to oranges. They are both fruit, but not the same kind, just like humans and angels are created beings but not of the same kind. Think a little more carefully about what you have described above and you may begin to see why fallen angels are beyond God's grace to redeem. Ask yourself: How is the condition or circumstance of an angel in heaven different than that of a human on earth particularly in relationship to God?

Consider also the following verse concerning those human beings who reject God's plan of salvation:

Hebrews 10:26-31 (KJV)
26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that has said, Vengeance belongs unto me, I will recompense, says the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Peace.

 

[Chesterton]

Ok, I want to explore Satan and the angels. They, according to the bible, were with God in heaven. They rebelled against God, this should show that they have a will to do right or wrong. Now, this means that some of them have fallen just as man. I find that interesting. They are bound to eternal fire, and damnation. Where is their forgiveness and mercy plan? Where is there a choice to come back to God?

If they are "bound" to damnation, it's because of the choice they've made. There very well could be a forgiveness plan, but just because it's unknown to us, don't assume it doesn't exist.

Does God love his enemies? Does God leave the 99 to after the one or has God given up hope? Does God know the future, and therefore not try to find a way for them to come back to Him? If they have a will to chose wrong, then they have a will to also choose right, just like we do wrong all the time, but we can choose whats right and realize that it was wrong. God so loved the world that he gave his son...where is the love shown to fallen angels, as such that he has shown for fallen man, who is yet lower than the angels? In revelation, they are future condemned...WHERE IS THE LOVE AND MERCY IN THAT!!?? Apparently, God has seperate standards, and different love. He sends a scapegoat for one kind, but pure hell in the future for the others.

If God knows that they (or anyone else) is "future condemned", that doesn't mean God condemned them, it just means He knows the future.

 

[onthegallow]

Revelation clearly states they are bound to hell. Even the demons admitted Jesus as the son of God, and for him to have mercy on them. These are the standards for our salvation and mercy, if asked from God, should be given to God's enemies if he is to be merciful as the Bible states. I believe the only reason people accept this is because it is easy to let them go to hell since they are man made, and man cares but for himself as the Bible clearly shows.

 

[Chesterton]

Revelation clearly states they are bound to hell. Even the demons admitted Jesus as the son of God, and for him to have mercy on them. These are the standards for our salvation and mercy, if asked from God, should be given to God's enemies if he is to be merciful as the Bible states. I believe the only reason people accept this is because it is easy to let them go to hell since they are man made, and man cares but for himself as the Bible clearly shows.

Maybe the definition of the word demon is "one who (in the future) will not be saved". Or maybe some demons are saved. Either way, the Christian idea is that mercy will not be available forever. We all enter eternity at some time; there comes a point of finality for all of us, whether angel or human.

 

[Jpark]

Ok, I want to explore Satan and the angels. They, according to the bible, were with God in heaven. They rebelled against God, this should show that they have a will to do right or wrong. Now, this means that some of them have fallen just as man. I find that interesting. They are bound to eternal fire, and damnation. Where is their forgiveness and mercy plan? Where is there a choice to come back to God? Does God love his enemies? Does God leave the 99 to after the one or has God given up hope? Does God know the future, and therefore not try to find a way for them to come back to Him? If they have a will to chose wrong, then they have a will to also choose right, just like we do wrong all the time, but we can choose whats right and realize that it was wrong. God so loved the world that he gave his son...where is the love shown to fallen angels, as such that he has shown for fallen man, who is yet lower than the angels? In revelation, they are future condemned...WHERE IS THE LOVE AND MERCY IN THAT!!?? Apparently, God has seperate standards, and different love. He sends a scapegoat for one kind, but pure hell in the future for the others.

Satan and his angels will not be forgiven since their sin was a sin of full spiritual knowledge.

This is why the unpardonable sin will not be forgiven. For it is a sin of spiritual knowledge.

James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!

Satan and his angels already knew God when they sinned. Therefore, they will not be forgiven.

And even if they could be forgiven, they will not repent.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

As you can see, Satan and his demons are very wrathful. Since they are angels, they know deep hatred. Their hatred is 100% more evil than the hatred of man.

Satan and his demons are enraged with God and against God. However, God controls all demons and they do His will since they have lost their free will.

 

[Van]

Let me just add an AMEN to Aiki's post #2. Paul tells us the punishment of the lost will be commensurate with the knowledge of the lost. For doing what was known to them to be wrong. Like stealing from others but punishing those who steal from you. So Satan and the fallen angels had a lot of knowledge, and made their decision to rebel not in ignorance. Very similar to the passage from Hebrews where folks sin willfully after obtaining knowledge of God, what could propitiate that? Recall the verse about the unforgivable sin? Now opinions vary, but I think it is rejection of gospel. Any sin can be forgiven, except the sin of rejecting the grace of God. Satan and the fallen angels seem to fall into that abyss, they knew the grace of God and rejected it, trampling under foot their Creator and their God. Much worse that a pagan who says there is no God, commiting a sin of willful ignorance.

 

[Basis_Vectors]

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[Adoniram]

As some have pointed out, these angels were privileged to be in the presence of God, enjoying the splendor of heaven and all God's glory. Their purpose was to worship God and carry out his will, and most did so lovingly and graciously, knowing that God alone was worthy of such devotion. But Lucifer, who was called "son of the morning" because of the beauty of his appearance, became enamored with his own beauty and felt that he should be as worthy of worship as God. Pride thus became the root of the first sin in the universe. Certainly though, there is only one worthy of worship and that is God. Because Lucifer and his followers were partakers of God's majesty, and chose to rebel anyway, God need not and will not have any mercy on them. Their pride would not allow these fallen angels to accept God's mercy if it were offered anyway. Their fate is sealed, and they know it.

 

[drich0150]

Where is their forgiveness and mercy plan? Where is there a choice to come back to God? Does God love his enemies?

WHERE IS THE LOVE AND MERCY IN THAT!!?? Apparently, God has seperate standards, and different love. He sends a scapegoat for one kind, but pure hell in the future for the others.

Just because we do not know of a "Plan" Doesn't mean one doesn't/didn't exist. How would it benefit us to know of or if angels were given a second chance?

Not to mention all of your speculation presupposes that the angels condemned are/were on the same spiritual level or are held to the same spiritual standard as the rest of us will be.. Just the fact that they reside in the presents of God would suggest they they are not in fact on the same spiritual level as any part of humanity.

Would you hold a fully established adult to the same standard as a newly cognoscente child? If Billy at the age of 3 likes to hit other three year olds as hard as he can, I would think society would have far more forgiveness then if billy was 33 and still liked to hit 3 year olds as hard as he could.

Being on par with God or in His presents suggests a more complete awareness than that of what humanity currently is working with. So with greater gifts comes greater responsibility.

 

[onthegallow]

You guys seem to forget the people in the bible that were priveledged to this presence of being with God, like adam and eve. Adam and eve sinned and thus we have also and we have had Jesus in our midst who was God. You can not say the angels have had something we havent. You may say the Bible chooses not to tell us why they are going to hell, but yet the bible cares to show they are going to hell, so if it wants to say that, it should provide a basis for that or not say it at all, because then God is showing them no love. Does God love Satan?

If I created something and my other creation was interferring and messing things up for everyone else, I would get rid of it. God should do the same with Satan. Isn't that why moses and his ppl killed entire races? God told them to kill them because either they did wrong or whatever, but God himself does not do the same that He commands his ppl and do away with Satan. Oh, I am sorry he said he would, but only in the end. How lame.

I think the fact that I would do different and be done with Satan shows that I am more moral than God. Oh, I know that may sound difficult, but prove to me that I am wrong.

 

[Dragons87]

Does God love Satan?

The simple answer is yes.

If I created something and my other creation was interferring and messing things up for everyone else, I would get rid of it. God should do the same with Satan. Isn't that why moses and his ppl killed entire races? God told them to kill them because either they did wrong or whatever, but God himself does not do the same that He commands his ppl and do away with Satan. Oh, I am sorry he said he would, but only in the end. How lame.

God doesn't operate a first-strike-out policy, not with Satan, not with us, and not even with the people in Canaan.

"First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." ...

But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." -- 2 Peter 3:3-4, 8-10

 

[drich0150]

You guys seem to forget the people in the bible that were priveledged to this presence of being with God, like adam and eve.

...So that's two people out of how many trillions since them? I would say even in your logic, they are the exception and not the rule. and again the Bible doesn't say whether or not the angels had a chance at redemption or not. You are making an assumption on where the bible is silent.

The bible is also silent about space travel, does that mean it is not possible to travel in space?

Does God love Satan

He did.

If I created something and my other creation was interferring and messing things up for everyone else, I would get rid of it.

Satan doesn't make us sin, we sin of our own accord.

God told them to kill them because either they did wrong or whatever, but God himself does not do the same that He commands his ppl and do away with Satan.

Because Believers and non believers are not in a war with each other. (you have the wrong religion.) God told the Israelites to destroy whom ever because one nation of people went to war with another nation of people.

I think the fact that I would do different and be done with Satan shows that I am more moral than God.

The only thing that your statement proves is you do not fully comprehend what Satan represents, and why it is we are here in this life.

Oh, I know that may sound difficult, but prove to me that I am wrong.

First some definitions.

Sin, is anything not in the expressed will of God.

Evil, is malicious intent to commit sin.

Not all sin is evil, but all evil is sin.

The wages of all sin is death.

Satan is not the Creator of sin. Sin is the result of free will.

If we have truly been given free will, then we need to have an option to choose from other than the expressed will of God. To choose anything not in the expressed will God, is in effect a sin.

We have been given freedom of choice to either choose to be with God or to choose to be away from God.

This Choice is made in accepting the sacrifice of Jesus. Which redeems all sin against God, only leaving the choice made to be with God.

The devil does not play into freewill at all. Sin is the result of free will, with out sin we do not truly have any options other than the expressed will of God. With out options we could only be in the expressed will of God if that were the case then we would be nothing more than preprogrammed flesh-bots. God didn't want flesh-bots other wise He would have never placed the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden giving humanity it's first choice. without the tree there never could have been the original sin, despite Satan's best efforts.

Sin is the result of choice. We have been given the right to Choose to that only those who want to be with God (not just be in heaven to avoid hell) will be with God in Heaven.

 

[Jpark]

You guys seem to forget the people in the bible that were priveledged to this presence of being with God, like adam and eve. Adam and eve sinned and thus we have also and we have had Jesus in our midst who was God. You can not say the angels have had something we havent. You may say the Bible chooses not to tell us why they are going to hell, but yet the bible cares to show they are going to hell, so if it wants to say that, it should provide a basis for that or not say it at all, because then God is showing them no love. Does God love Satan?

If I created something and my other creation was interferring and messing things up for everyone else, I would get rid of it. God should do the same with Satan. Isn't that why moses and his ppl killed entire races? God told them to kill them because either they did wrong or whatever, but God himself does not do the same that He commands his ppl and do away with Satan. Oh, I am sorry he said he would, but only in the end. How lame.

I think the fact that I would do different and be done with Satan shows that I am more moral than God. Oh, I know that may sound difficult, but prove to me that I am wrong.

God hates Satan. He is not just and . He is at Satan.

He will do something about Satan eventually. He is just using Satan to end the world His way. This is the way the world ends. It is written in the Bible.

Also, if He did away with Satan, then the Son of God would have been unnecessary.

1 John 3:8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

 

[Basis_Vectors]

God hates Satan. He is not just and . He is at Satan.

He will do something about Satan eventually. He is just using Satan to end the world His way. This is the way the world ends. It is written in the Bible.

Also, if He did away with Satan, then the Son of God would have been unnecessary.

1 John 3:8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

It sure would have been a lot easier for us lowly sinners that will meet our demise because of God and Satan's chess game. I am starting to question his love after all...

 

[Jpark]

It sure would have been a lot easier for us lowly sinners that will meet our demise because of God and Satan's chess game. I am starting to question his love after all...

Just God's chess game. Satan is not God's equal. God is playing chess by Himself.

God wanted to demonstrate His love for us by sending Himself through Jesus to die for our sins. So He allowed evil to enter the world.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends.

So God is apparently insane and deluded.

 

[Basis_Vectors]

Just God's chess game. Satan is not God's equal.

If you are a novice playing a grandmaster, there are still two players. I am not suggesting duality (God =/opposite of Satan,) but He could have skipped this whole process - the process of grief, sorrow and repentance for making us - if he would have destroyed Satan. Instead we are here with a book that is incomplete, a bunch of supposed "spiritual brothers and sisters" that treat each other like crap anyway. [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] is the point? To live, die, and go to Hell/face judgment? The ones that will be with him are already chosen anyway, so what is the use? Why go through the motions?

See, it IS a chess game.

 

[Jpark]

If you are a novice playing a grandmaster, there are still two players. I am not suggesting duality (God =/opposite of Satan,) but He could have skipped this whole process - the process of grief, sorrow and repentance for making us - if he would have destroyed Satan. Instead we are here with a book that is incomplete, a bunch of supposed "spiritual brothers and sisters" that treat each other like crap anyway.

[wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] is the point? To live, die, and go to Hell/face judgment?

The ones that will be with him are already chosen anyway, so what is the use? Why go through the motions?

See, it IS a chess game.

You make a good point there.

The meaning of life is this:

Ecclesiastes 2:24-25 There is nothing better for a man than to eat and drink and tell himself that his labor is good This also I have seen that it is from the hand of God. For who can eat and who can have enjoyment without Him?

Chosen doesn't mean that the unbelievers are excluded. God cannot change but that doesn't mean the book of life can't change.

Revelation 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Revelation 22:19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

 

[aiki]

You guys seem to forget the people in the bible that were priveledged to this presence of being with God, like adam and eve. Adam and eve sinned and thus we have also and we have had Jesus in our midst who was God. You can not say the angels have had something we havent.

Yes, we can. Here's why:

1). Every fallen angel was in heaven with God beholding Him in His full glory and majesty. Not even Adam and Eve experienced God this way. The Bible tells us that no living man has seen God at anytime (Jn. 1:18), which is to say that no man has seen God as He is in all His brilliant power and holiness. Angels have, however.

2). Jesus did not reveal his true nature except to a few - and those few didn't fully comprehend who he was until after his resurrection and ascension into heaven. He was God in the flesh, by willful choice having set aside the full, divine glory that was his as Creator. No one, except perhaps those disciples who saw Christ briefly transfigured, had any clear idea of the divine nature of the person called Jesus. None of them experienced Christ as the angels do.

3). Angels, as far as the record of Scripture tells us, are a higher order creature than humans (Heb. 2:7). They are not solely corporeal, they are far more powerful than humans, and they are not dependent as we are upon food, water, etc., to live.

All of these things have an important bearing upon why the angels who fell from heaven (or any angel, for that matter) cannot be appropriately compared in their condition to humans.

You may say the Bible chooses not to tell us why they are going to hell, but yet the bible cares to show they are going to hell, so if it wants to say that, it should provide a basis for that or not say it at all, because then God is showing them no love. Does God love Satan?

That God has judged and condemned Satan and his fallen angels to hell for all eternity doesn't mean that God never loved them. In fact, what makes them so positively or justly condemned is that they existed in unobstructed and undiminished fellowship to a loving, holy God and still rose up in rebellion toward Him. I think God once loved Satan as He does any of us, but Satan with full, unadulterated knowledge of God has rejected Him completely and utterly. Satan now is absolutely devoted to evil, beyond redemption by his own choosing. In such a condition, Satan can be only an object of God's wrath.

If I created something and my other creation was interferring and messing things up for everyone else, I would get rid of it.

Trying to assess an infinite, perfect God by your finite, comparatively ignorant standards has some very obvious problems, don't you think?

God should do the same with Satan. Isn't that why moses and his ppl killed entire races? God told them to kill them because either they did wrong or whatever, but God himself does not do the same that He commands his ppl and do away with Satan. Oh, I am sorry he said he would, but only in the end. How lame.

Why must your timing be God's? Why is it "lame" when God doesn't do what you think He should do?

I think the fact that I would do different and be done with Satan shows that I am more moral than God. Oh, I know that may sound difficult, but prove to me that I am wrong.

Actually, all it does is prove that you and God do things differently. You are making the claim that you are more moral than God so it falls to you to prove that you are right.

Peace.

 

[Basis_Vectors]

You make a good point there.

The meaning of life is this:

Ecclesiastes 2:24-25 There is nothing better for a man than to eat and drink and tell himself that his labor is good This also I have seen that it is from the hand of God. For who can eat and who can have enjoyment without Him?

Chosen doesn't mean that the unbelievers are excluded. God cannot change but that doesn't mean the book of life can't change.

Revelation 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Revelation 22:19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Ok, brother. I understand what you are saying and I agree. Thanks for being patient.

I find myself asking the previously disclosed question, which is really a follow-up to the question:

"If someone can be evil all of their life (by choice,) but be saved at the very last moment (like the thief/murderer on the cross next to Yeshua,) cant the same but opposite thing happen i.e. a believer that falls away in the end?" The question, quite frankly, scares me.

Then, when you add in the philosophical problem of free will, choice, and their implications it gets supremely complicated.

As a physicist, I cant possibly ignore the existance or glory of God, as I am studying His creation everyday. It is humbling. And, because I can say for a fact God exists, I want to cover all "holes" in logic concerning salvation.

I suppose I am having a cliche science vs. spirituality conflict moment, but it has been going on for years .

I can understand and master quantum electrodynamics but having faith is the hardestthing I have ever had to do, and I am nowhere close to mastering it.