Loving and Merciful God???

[norswede]

I am interested in answers to this post.

I do not claim to understand everything written in the Bible just as I'm sure you don't understand everything in science. I take what I know of the fall of Satan from Rev.12. And as for God having a moral duty to kill Satan, it says in the Book of Revelation that he will along with all those who follow him.

 

[onthegallow]

Satan and his angels committed Blasphemy, the unpardonable sin. They wished to become gods themselves and rise above God. This is the same lie that Satan told Adam and Eve and when they believed him and wished to become gods themselves, they were banished from paradise and their immortality was taken from them and they were shown what a life without God really is like and until Jesus came, Man had to struggle to get back what they lost. Now there are other religions out there including the New Age Movement that teach that we can become gods. I believe that those who accept this lie are committing the one unpardonable sin and cannot be forgiven, but in order to commit this sin they have to truly believe in their hearts that they can and will become like God.

Ok, lets for one, consider that what I see as a contradiction, and what you see as not, we throw it out. It does not matter. The angels fell and were shown free will and therefore have the will to choose him again. You cannot deny this as to you are "saved". Now, if you are implying that it is different because they saw God, then our judgement should be different because of the fact that we haven't seen God, but yet you will probably claim that each non-saved person is condemned to the same hell for not believing on lack of proof. We do not deserve the same hell, because satan rebelled on full proof and witness of God. Satan did not say that they would be God. It says this:

"You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

He is saying they would know good from evil like God. I know of no christian that says they don't want to be like Jesus/God. What we have here is them desiring to be like the person they admired. It does not say they wanted to be God. In genesis no reference is made that this is even satan, only that this is a snake that was craftier than ALL THE OTHER BEASTS OF THE FIELD. That implies that other animals were crafty and possibly could talk.

Is it moral if we know someone commits murder, to let them go about and do their murderous deeds?

Is it moral for God to let Satan work his destruction on his people?

It is not moral. It is not right. The second is not true.
All this was a way to describe the problems in our world and the injustices of life. We need to break from this condemning mentality to love people, and not love them for the sake of a later conversion. I used to be a Christian for over 20 years, I was raised a Christian. The shackles of religion on the mind, and self perception are just stupid. I believe in being moral and decent. I believe what we define as moral should come above any act on injustice on any scale (meaning if killing 1 person would save the world, I wouldn't do it for it is not moral) . I believe in loving Buddhists, Mormons, Baptists, Jehovah's Witnesses and so on, for the sake of a decent and loving world. You, though, are not happy enough with that. You must convert them for something you have no proof of, which could be wrong on the basis of not having that proof. The difference between your God and me is that I love people regardless of their religion, while your God tortures people to hell, who dont believe in Him.

Tell me, do I deserve hell for not believing? If there were no other gods to contend with, wouldnt being jealous, and angey over the worship of other gods be silly since he knows he is the only one? If he was the ONLY god, wouldn't people be searching for him but just with a different name? Yet, the bible showing him angry over this shows more that this was man made. As Christians have proved, they want no contention with their God from other gods.

 

[norswede]

Ok, lets for one, consider that what I see as a contradiction, and what you see as not, we throw it out. It does not matter. The angels fell and were shown free will and therefore have the will to choose him again. You cannot deny this as to you are "saved". Now, if you are implying that it is different because they saw God, then our judgement should be different because of the fact that we haven't seen God, but yet you will probably claim that each non-saved person is condemned to the same hell for not believing on lack of proof. We do not deserve the same hell, because satan rebelled on full proof and witness of God. Satan did not say that they would be God. It says this:

"You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

He is saying they would know good from evil like God. I know of no christian that says they don't want to be like Jesus/God. What we have here is them desiring to be like the person they admired. It does not say they wanted to be God. In genesis no reference is made that this is even satan, only that this is a snake that was craftier than ALL THE OTHER BEASTS OF THE FIELD. That implies that other animals were crafty and possibly could talk.

Is it moral if we know someone commits murder, to let them go about and do their murderous deeds?

Is it moral for God to let Satan work his destruction on his people?

It is not moral. It is not right. The second is not true.
All this was a way to describe the problems in our world and the injustices of life. We need to break from this condemning mentality to love people, and not love them for the sake of a later conversion. I used to be a Christian for over 20 years, I was raised a Christian. The shackles of religion on the mind, and self perception are just stupid. I believe in being moral and decent. I believe what we define as moral should come above any act on injustice on any scale (meaning if killing 1 person would save the world, I wouldn't do it for it is not moral) . I believe in loving Buddhists, Mormons, Baptists, Jehovah's Witnesses and so on, for the sake of a decent and loving world. You, though, are not happy enough with that. You must convert them for something you have no proof of, which could be wrong on the basis of not having that proof. The difference between your God and me is that I love people regardless of their religion, while your God tortures people to hell, who dont believe in Him.

Tell me, do I deserve hell for not believing? If there were no other gods to contend with, wouldnt being jealous, and angey over the worship of other gods be silly since he knows he is the only one? If he was the ONLY god, wouldn't people be searching for him but just with a different name? Yet, the bible showing him angry over this shows more that this was man made. As Christians have proved, they want no contention with their God from other gods.

Actually, I have no problem with others believing whatever they want. I am not trying to force anyone to convert. If they're not interested, that is their choice and we will see in the end what happens but as for not having proof or evidence, I do but you can't see it unless you open yourself to it. Lets just say, you knew someone who told you that tomorrow they were going to take out a gun and start shooting people. Would you just keep it to yourself because you have no solid evidence that it was going to happen other than their word? And if someone didn't believe you, what would you do? You would probably move on to try to save as many people as you could before it was too late. That is what we are doing. Those of us who are born again, have the Holy Spirit within us and have experienced God in a very real way. Some of us see visions, others hear his voice and others (like myself), communicate with him through the Bible. I ask a question and a verse comes to mind. I look it up, and it almost always answers my question. I actually have diary's where I have done this everynight for years asking for advice on each entry. But because you weren't there when it happened, you would just think that I just wrote those in after in order to convince people I had that gift or if I showed you in person, you would just think that I just knew the Bible extremely well and had memorized every verse. (Trust me, I've only read the Bible all the way through twice. I'm not anywhere close to memorizing it) My point is, God shows himself to those who seek him with all their hearts, not those who seek proof before they will believe in him. There is evidence all around you, you just refuse to see it because your goal is not to prove God exists, but to disprove that he does.

 

[Basis_Vectors]

I do not claim to understand everything written in the Bible just as I'm sure you don't understand everything in science. I take what I know of the fall of Satan from Rev.12. And as for God having a moral duty to kill Satan, it says in the Book of Revelation that he will along with all those who follow him.

Yes, the thing that is causing a lot of confusion for myself is the time issue, and the futility of it if all of this is already written.

Spiritually, "time" does not exist. That can be proven scientifically i.e. the higher the dimensions you go, the more arbitrary time is in that dimension. Time is, to me an evolution of events, not a dimension.

With that said, why waste the time of having all this go on in creation? In other words, why the evolution of events of sinful acts, injustice, death, destruction, etc. just to get to the convergence point of judgment? Not everyone is as founded in their faith as you and others may be. So, for those of us that struggle daily for whatever reason: is there any solace?

Where you are firm in your faith, will others who are not but seek our Father get help or justice?

Like I said before, it seems as if the "election" are chosen, and there is nothing anyone else can do except go through the "evolution of events" that leads to judgment.

So, why bother? That is the problem I have.

 

[onthegallow]

Actually, I have no problem with others believing whatever they want. I am not trying to force anyone to convert. If they're not interested, that is their choice and we will see in the end what happens but as for not having proof or evidence, I do but you can't see it unless you open yourself to it. Lets just say, you knew someone who told you that tomorrow they were going to take out a gun and start shooting people. Would you just keep it to yourself because you have no solid evidence that it was going to happen other than their word? And if someone didn't believe you, what would you do? You would probably move on to try to save as many people as you could before it was too late. That is what we are doing. Those of us who are born again, have the Holy Spirit within us and have experienced God in a very real way. Some of us see visions, others hear his voice and others (like myself), communicate with him through the Bible. I ask a question and a verse comes to mind. I look it up, and it almost always answers my question. I actually have diary's where I have done this everynight for years asking for advice on each entry. But because you weren't there when it happened, you would just think that I just wrote those in after in order to convince people I had that gift or if I showed you in person, you would just think that I just knew the Bible extremely well and had memorized every verse. (Trust me, I've only read the Bible all the way through twice. I'm not anywhere close to memorizing it) My point is, God shows himself to those who seek him with all their hearts, not those who seek proof before they will believe in him. There is evidence all around you, you just refuse to see it because your goal is not to prove God exists, but to disprove that he does.

I disagree with you. I am not trying to prove that God doesn't exist no more than I am trying to prove Zues doesn't exists. I am willing to accept God if and only if he is real. I don't serve Ra because I believe he is not real. I don't believe the monotheistic Zoroastrian religion that predates Judaism, because I believe it is not real...same with Mithraism or Gnostism. I think you and me are on the same page there, but just not with Christianity. The only reason you don't believe the other ones is from LACK OF PROOF. Now, you see why lack of proof is so substantial, and why proof is meaningful.

Once a person gets beyond the bias in favor of belief, though, they may realize something critical: the burden of support lies with those claiming that belief is rational and/or necessary. Believers fail to meet this burden and thus fail to provide good reasons to accept their claims. As a consequence, those who don't already believe and/or who are not biased in favor of belief aren't given a reason to start. Those who are not biased in favor of some particular religion or some particular god aren't given a reason for favoritism and don't have a reason to pick just one of them for belief, excluding all others.



The question "Why don't you believe?" is a request for justification from the nonbeliever; the response "I haven't seen any good reason to bother believing" returns the need for justification back where it belongs: with the believer. Too often, believers fail to realize that their position is the one needing defense and this response may help them understand that. If they can't offer any good reasons for singling out their religion and their god for belief, dismissing all others as false, then they shouldn't expect nonbelievers to provide any arguments for why this one religion and this form of theism are not accepted.

Theists should think of a god they don't believe in and ask why they don't believe in it. Some may answer that their religion teaches them not to. Others, however, will respond in a way similar to the above — they have no reason to bother and/or they have good reasons to think that that god does not or cannot exist. Well, atheists don't believe for the same sorts of reasons. This helps reveal the fact that theists and atheists aren't always as far apart as they sometimes imagine. Most theists are monotheists, which means that they reject all of the tens of thousands of alleged gods except one

You said:

"Lets just say, you knew someone who told you that tomorrow they were going to take out a gun and start shooting people. Would you just keep it to yourself because you have no solid evidence that it was going to happen other than their word? And if someone didn't believe you, what would you do?"

The problem with this is that the person holding the gun and sending people to hell is your God. Also, you clearly say that this would be wrong, which I agree. Because as I said before:

Is it moral if we know someone commits murder, to let them go about and do their murderous deeds?

Is it moral for God to let Satan work his destruction on his people?

which now you have shown that it is wrong for God to let Satan work his evil on us and not dealing with him while he can crush him. It doesn't suffice to say that he will when everyone has gone to hell, as it is wrong to let the guy kill everyone, and then let justice serve him. You, as humans, are required to take care of that mischevious man. Anything less is simply wrong.

 

[Joveia]

Believers fail to meet this burden and thus fail to provide good reasons to accept their claims. As a consequence, those who don't already believe and/or who are not biased in favor of belief aren't given a reason to start. Those who are not biased in favor of some particular religion or some particular god aren't given a reason for favoritism and don't have a reason to pick just one of them for belief, excluding all others.

People will end up wherever they want to go. Living forever with or without God:

2 Thes 1:9 "They will pay the penalty by being destroyed forever, by being separated from the Lord's presence and from his glorious power." (their choice)

2 Tim 4:8b: "And the prize is not just for me but for all who eagerly look forward to his appearing."

The only catch is that if you do want to spend eternity with God, you have to get there through accepting what Christ did for you on the cross, rather than through your own goodness/efforts.

Is it moral for God to let Satan work his destruction on his people?

I think it's because the world is so screwed up that a lot of people end up coming 'back to' God like the Prodigal Son, rather than choose to live forever without God. Maybe Satan is necessary for this.

Also here's an interesting article from TVTropes (great site) on how people can be 'irredeemable'. You might find it interesting: Complete Monster - Television Tropes & Idioms. Maybe Satan is like one of these archetypal characters.

Also I think the cross could have saved Satan if Satan had chosen to come back to God, check out Col 1:19-20 "For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross."

From the scripture above, it sounds like God planned the cross to also save Satan if Satan had wanted to be saved.

 

[onthegallow]

Matthew 25:41 states, "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."

Hell was prepared by God. So, God created totorturous means for Satan even though he has a free will to choose, but why not be a "loving" God and instead of trying to win him back, just prepare a torture chamber. Second, no where in the bible does it say that hell is the absense of God.

There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. [20] At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores [21] and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. [22] "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. [23] In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. [24] So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'



As we can see, Jesus knew of this hell and what was going on, therefore it was not absent of him.


42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. (John 8)



So, we see that the root cause of this from what Jesus is saying is the Satan. Satan is not necessary for this and your Bible never says that but shows him as a lion trying to kill us and devour us while God lets him. This is not right and is immoral and unjust.

And goodness/efforts is VERY essential. Jesus even said:

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer Him,[d] saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

See that Jesus is reffering to what they DID AND DIDN'T DO is what seperated them, therefore effort and goodness makes all the difference.

 

[aiki]

Yes, the thing that is causing a lot of confusion for myself is the time issue, and the futility of it if all of this is already written.

God is revealing and glorifying Himself in the events that have occurred and will occur. He doesn't seem to think it is all futile...

That the end of a thing may be known does not make that thing necessarily futile. You know, for instance, that you, like everyone else, will die someday. In light of this fact do you stop eating, working, and interacting with others because your end is already known? Obviously not.

With that said, why waste the time of having all this go on in creation? In other words, why the evolution of events of sinful acts, injustice, death, destruction, etc. just to get to the convergence point of judgment?

Judgment is not the end goal. There is life and joy in eternity beyond the "convergence point of judgment."

God is working out his own plan that takes into account far more than what you or I can comprehend. It is rather simplistic and myopic thinking to describe God's doings as you have above and then declare it a "waste." God demonstrates His justice, His mercy, His power to save, His love and His utter sovereignty over all creation in the story of His redemption of fallen and depraved human beings.

Not everyone is as founded in their faith as you and others may be. So, for those of us that struggle daily for whatever reason: is there any solace?

What do you mean by "solace"? A personally satisfying answer? An answer that allows you to understand everything God is doing? Or are you willing to trust God even when He moves beyond your capacity to make sense of His plans?

Where you are firm in your faith, will others who are not but seek our Father get help or justice?

Depends on what you mean by "help and justice." There is His help and justice and then there is ours; they aren't always the same thing.

Like I said before, it seems as if the "election" are chosen, and there is nothing anyone else can do except go through the "evolution of events" that leads to judgment.

And who are all the "elect"? Do you know? Does anyone? Even those who are the elect did not know they were until they became children of God. And they "go through the evolution of events that lead to judgment" just like the non-elect.

So, why bother? That is the problem I have.

Why does God bother? Is that what you're asking? If so, see above.

Peace.

 

[Jpark]

Matthew 25:41 states, "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."

Hell was prepared by God. So, God created totorturous means for Satan even though he has a free will to choose, but why not be a "loving" God and instead of trying to win him back, just prepare a torture chamber. Second, no where in the bible does it say that hell is the absense of God.

You do well. We cannot deny the reality of the lake of fire.

Indeed, the lake of fire can't be the absence of God.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Since God is Omnipresent (Psalm 139:7-8), perhaps this is from the perspective of the sinners in the lake of fire. In other words, God is simply not making His presence known in the lake of fire.

There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. [20] At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores [21] and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. [22] "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. [23] In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. [24] So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'



As we can see, Jesus knew of this hell and what was going on, therefore it was not absent of him.

Yes.

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. (John 8)



So, we see that the root cause of this from what Jesus is saying is the Satan. Satan is not necessary for this and your Bible never says that but shows him as a lion trying to kill us and devour us while God lets him. This is not right and is immoral and unjust.

Yes, trying to kill, but he has no free will and can't do anything without God's permission. Usually, God doesn't permit him to kill.

Genesis 3:14 So the LORD God said to the serpent: “ Because you have done this, you are cursed more than all cattle, and more than every beast of the field; on your belly you shall go, and you shall eat dust all the days of your life.

Job 1:12 And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.”

Job 2:6 And the LORD said to Satan, “Behold, he is in your hand, but spare his life.”

And goodness/efforts is VERY essential. Jesus even said:

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer Him,[d] saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

See that Jesus is reffering to what they DID AND DIDN'T DO is what seperated them, therefore effort and goodness makes all the difference.

Jesus was saying that judgment will be based on good character, which produces good works.

Good works do not produce good character; good character produces good works.

1 Corinthians 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.

 

[norswede]

I disagree with you. I am not trying to prove that God doesn't exist no more than I am trying to prove Zues doesn't exists. I am willing to accept God if and only if he is real. I don't serve Ra because I believe he is not real. I don't believe the monotheistic Zoroastrian religion that predates Judaism, because I believe it is not real...same with Mithraism or Gnostism. I think you and me are on the same page there, but just not with Christianity. The only reason you don't believe the other ones is from LACK OF PROOF. Now, you see why lack of proof is so substantial, and why proof is meaningful.

Once a person gets beyond the bias in favor of belief, though, they may realize something critical: the burden of support lies with those claiming that belief is rational and/or necessary. Believers fail to meet this burden and thus fail to provide good reasons to accept their claims. As a consequence, those who don't already believe and/or who are not biased in favor of belief aren't given a reason to start. Those who are not biased in favor of some particular religion or some particular god aren't given a reason for favoritism and don't have a reason to pick just one of them for belief, excluding all others.



The question "Why don't you believe?" is a request for justification from the nonbeliever; the response "I haven't seen any good reason to bother believing" returns the need for justification back where it belongs: with the believer. Too often, believers fail to realize that their position is the one needing defense and this response may help them understand that. If they can't offer any good reasons for singling out their religion and their god for belief, dismissing all others as false, then they shouldn't expect nonbelievers to provide any arguments for why this one religion and this form of theism are not accepted.

Theists should think of a god they don't believe in and ask why they don't believe in it. Some may answer that their religion teaches them not to. Others, however, will respond in a way similar to the above — they have no reason to bother and/or they have good reasons to think that that god does not or cannot exist. Well, atheists don't believe for the same sorts of reasons. This helps reveal the fact that theists and atheists aren't always as far apart as they sometimes imagine. Most theists are monotheists, which means that they reject all of the tens of thousands of alleged gods except one

You said:

"Lets just say, you knew someone who told you that tomorrow they were going to take out a gun and start shooting people. Would you just keep it to yourself because you have no solid evidence that it was going to happen other than their word? And if someone didn't believe you, what would you do?"

The problem with this is that the person holding the gun and sending people to hell is your God. Also, you clearly say that this would be wrong, which I agree. Because as I said before:

Is it moral if we know someone commits murder, to let them go about and do their murderous deeds?

Is it moral for God to let Satan work his destruction on his people?

which now you have shown that it is wrong for God to let Satan work his evil on us and not dealing with him while he can crush him. It doesn't suffice to say that he will when everyone has gone to hell, as it is wrong to let the guy kill everyone, and then let justice serve him. You, as humans, are required to take care of that mischevious man. Anything less is simply wrong.

You have the right to believe what you want. I KNOW what is true based on my own experiences. I don't have a shred of doubt in my mind. My job is to spread the word to those who don't believe and council those who do believe but have questions. My job is not to push my beliefs on others or struggle to find proof for one particular person who has already decided what they do or do not believe. I just hope that when Jesus does return, you will be ready because the excuse "I was waiting for proof" won't cut it when the time comes.

 

[Basis_Vectors]

God is revealing and glorifying Himself in the events that have occurred and will occur. He doesn't seem to think it is all futile...

That the end of a thing may be known does not make that thing necessarily futile. You know, for instance, that you, like everyone else, will die someday. In light of this fact do you stop eating, working, and interacting with others because your end is already known? Obviously not.



Judgment is not the end goal. There is life and joy in eternity beyond the "convergence point of judgment."

God is working out his own plan that takes into account far more than what you or I can comprehend. It is rather simplistic and myopic thinking to describe God's doings as you have above and then declare it a "waste." God demonstrates His justice, His mercy, His power to save, His love and His utter sovereignty over all creation in the story of His redemption of fallen and depraved human beings.



What do you mean by "solace"? A personally satisfying answer? An answer that allows you to understand everything God is doing? Or are you willing to trust God even when He moves beyond your capacity to make sense of His plans?



Depends on what you mean by "help and justice." There is His help and justice and then there is ours; they aren't always the same thing.



And who are all the "elect"? Do you know? Does anyone? Even those who are the elect did not know they were until they became children of God. And they "go through the evolution of events that lead to judgment" just like the non-elect.



Why does God bother? Is that what you're asking? If so, see above.

Peace.

Thanks for the spiritual insults; I was asking more for insight than chastisement.

 

[onthegallow]

You have the right to believe what you want. I KNOW what is true based on my own experiences. I don't have a shred of doubt in my mind. My job is to spread the word to those who don't believe and council those who do believe but have questions. My job is not to push my beliefs on others or struggle to find proof for one particular person who has already decided what they do or do not believe. I just hope that when Jesus does return, you will be ready because the excuse "I was waiting for proof" won't cut it when the time comes.

How dare you say I have the right to believe and yet say I am going to hell to burn. How dare you pretend to know the mind of God/Jesus and say that I would say "I wanted more proof" wont cut it. Last I checked, you were a human. You say his plan is beyond you yet you accuse, accuse, accuse -- as the name Satan is derived from "the accuser". You say your experiences prove to you. GREAT, but they prove jack to the rest of the world, yet you cant even prove those experiences are linked to your God and not any other supernatural being, and look at the fact that the proof lay in your personal experiences as a means to protect yourself, and of course no doubt would be in your mind -- it is considered wrong or "unfaithful". Don't you threaten me with hell as your last resort to make someone believe or validate yourself.

Defend your faith or don't but don't condemn people in something you even admit to being out of your realm of knowledge.

I have not decided and don't say that I already have. I percieve that you say that because your arguments are not enough to convince. So, stop pressuming you know something, that you don't, and that you are privy to the mind of God, and that you know really what happens after death, because the truth is, you could be as wrong as the next man.

I am willing to be convinced, I just haven't yet because if something is indeed the truth, it will be true even with skepticism, and it will be convincing. So far, christianity hasn't convinced me.

 

[onthegallow]

Thanks for the spiritual insults; I was asking more for insight than chastisement.

Interesting, so God is glorifying himself. That is what I like to call downright arrogant.

 

[Dragons87]

How dare you say I have the right to believe and yet say I am going to hell to burn. How dare you pretend to know the mind of God/Jesus and say that I would say "I wanted more proof" wont cut it. Last I checked, you were a human. You say his plan is beyond you yet you accuse, accuse, accuse -- as the name Satan is derived from "the accuser". You say your experiences prove to you. GREAT, but they prove jack to the rest of the world, yet you cant even prove those experiences are linked to your God and not any other supernatural being, and look at the fact that the proof lay in your personal experiences as a means to protect yourself, and of course no doubt would be in your mind -- it is considered wrong or "unfaithful". Don't you threaten me with hell as your last resort to make someone believe or validate yourself.

Defend your faith or don't but don't condemn people in something you even admit to being out of your realm of knowledge.

I have not decided and don't say that I already have. I percieve that you say that because your arguments are not enough to convince. So, stop pressuming you know something, that you don't, and that you are privy to the mind of God, and that you know really what happens after death, because the truth is, you could be as wrong as the next man.

I am willing to be convinced, I just haven't yet because if something is indeed the truth, it will be true even with skepticism, and it will be convincing. So far, christianity hasn't convinced me.

I would like to take the conversation off to another tangent. May I?

If, and only if, Christianity was generally true, and indeed God had made you and would judge you on all your actions and thoughts of your whole life, and you were made to stand in front of him, what would you say to him?

Just interested in what you think.

 

[Joveia]

Matthew 25:41 states, "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."

Hell was prepared by God. So, God created totorturous means for Satan even though he has a free will to choose, but why not be a "loving" God and instead of trying to win him back, just prepare a torture chamber.

But the Colossians quote above indicates I think that God does want Satan to repent and has tried to win him back, and that the cross might have saved Satan if Satan had wanted to come back. But he just didn't want to.

Second, no where in the bible does it say that hell is the absense of God.

The Bible uses lots of different, contradictory metaphors to describe hell. It is described in such a way in some places (as well as being 'denied God's presence' and a 'lake of fire'):

Matthew 25:30 "Now throw this useless servant into outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 22:13 ""Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'" Also Matt 8:12 and Luke 13:28.

Note also that the rich man doesn't ask to enter eternal life, he just wants Lazarus to come and make him feel better, which is actually quite selfish. This indicates that hell is a place that people choose to go, rather than hang out with God forever.

So, we see that the root cause of this from what Jesus is saying is the Satan. Satan is not necessary for this and your Bible never says that but shows him as a lion trying to kill us and devour us while God lets him. This is not right and is immoral and unjust.

But what if Satan is the ONLY way that a lot of people will choose to enter into eternal life? It would be immoral and unjust otherwise, but if it means an eternity of happiness for some people in getting them to change their mind...

And goodness/efforts is VERY essential. Jesus even said:

...See that Jesus is reffering to what they DID AND DIDN'T DO is what seperated them, therefore effort and goodness makes all the difference.

The best way of interpreting the Bible is to take all verses on a given topic and list them, and get an overall impression because they cover different parts of the elephant. Then you reread the 'outlier' verses in light of the general view. So this is an outlier verse because in most of the NT salvation is described as a complete gift:

Eph 2:8: Because by grace you have salvation through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is given by God: Not by works, so that no man may take glory to himself.

Rom 11:6: But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

John 14:6: Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Matt 26:39: He went on a little farther and bowed with his face to the ground, praying, "My Father! If it is possible, let this cup of suffering be taken away from me. Yet I want your will to be done, not mine."

So if you reread that verse I think it's probably saying that grace shouldn't be 'cheap' grace which means that grace entails you actually do stuff, it's not a free pass for evil. So people saved by grace should exhibit the qualities mentioned.

 

[onthegallow]

But the Colossians quote above indicates I think that God does want Satan to repent and has tried to win him back, and that the cross might have saved Satan if Satan had wanted to come back. But he just didn't want to.



The Bible uses lots of different, contradictory metaphors to describe hell. It is described in such a way in some places (as well as being 'denied God's presence' and a 'lake of fire'):

Matthew 25:30 "Now throw this useless servant into outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 22:13 ""Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'" Also Matt 8:12 and Luke 13:28.

Note also that the rich man doesn't ask to enter eternal life, he just wants Lazarus to come and make him feel better, which is actually quite selfish. This indicates that hell is a place that people choose to go, rather than hang out with God forever.



But what if Satan is the ONLY way that a lot of people will choose to enter into eternal life? It would be immoral and unjust otherwise, but if it means an eternity of happiness for some people in getting them to change their mind...



The best way of interpreting the Bible is to take all verses on a given topic and list them, and get an overall impression because they cover different parts of the elephant. Then you reread the 'outlier' verses in light of the general view. So this is an outlier verse because in most of the NT salvation is described as a complete gift:

Eph 2:8: Because by grace you have salvation through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is given by God: Not by works, so that no man may take glory to himself.

Rom 11:6: But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

John 14:6: Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Matt 26:39: He went on a little farther and bowed with his face to the ground, praying, "My Father! If it is possible, let this cup of suffering be taken away from me. Yet I want your will to be done, not mine."

So if you reread that verse I think it's probably saying that grace shouldn't be 'cheap' grace which means that grace entails you actually do stuff, it's not a free pass for evil. So people saved by grace should exhibit the qualities mentioned.

Satan is not need for it and I think to say that is going off the deep end. Satan caused Eve to be decieved and eat of the fruit. You are implying that Satan does the work of the Holy spirit. I think your theology is crumbling before you. You are making unbiblical and wothless claims to jump to a conclusion why it is ok for Satan to cause havoc and yet keep him alive. You are implying by doing evil that Satan is doing God's will. Next, you are telling me to read the bible in such a way that I HAVE to accept it and find a way for contradictions in theology to survive. Maybe, this is fine for you, but not for me.

So, it is selfish for him to want to have him feel better while he is being tortured in hell? Is it not selfish not to let him feel better? I think that is a much crueler thing. Oh, thats right, its Gods plan to let us burn, while you just watch us.

--------------------------------------IMMORAL--------------------------------------------

 

[onthegallow]

I would like to take the conversation off to another tangent. May I?

If, and only if, Christianity was generally true, and indeed God had made you and would judge you on all your actions and thoughts of your whole life, and you were made to stand in front of him, what would you say to him?

Just interested in what you think.

I could ask that of every religion in the world. I don't believe in believing and loving a God/religion on the basis of it being the best wager. If there is someone out there, I don't think he would want that either, but I think a lot of people do that.

 

[aiki]

Thanks for the spiritual insults; I was asking more for insight than chastisement.

I didn't insult you personally. I was matter-of-fact about my responses, but none of what I wrote was insulting or chastising. Why are you so quick to see an offense where there is none?

Interesting, so God is glorifying himself. That is what I like to call downright arrogant.

I suppose it would be - if He weren't God, the Almighty Maker of the Universe and as such absolutely worthy of such glorification. That all Creation should glorify Him is his due, not arrogance. You are being anthropomorphic about God in assigning him human motives like arrogance.

Peace.

 

[norswede]

How dare you say I have the right to believe and yet say I am going to hell to burn. How dare you pretend to know the mind of God/Jesus and say that I would say "I wanted more proof" wont cut it. Last I checked, you were a human. You say his plan is beyond you yet you accuse, accuse, accuse -- as the name Satan is derived from "the accuser". You say your experiences prove to you. GREAT, but they prove jack to the rest of the world, yet you cant even prove those experiences are linked to your God and not any other supernatural being, and look at the fact that the proof lay in your personal experiences as a means to protect yourself, and of course no doubt would be in your mind -- it is considered wrong or "unfaithful". Don't you threaten me with hell as your last resort to make someone believe or validate yourself.

Defend your faith or don't but don't condemn people in something you even admit to being out of your realm of knowledge.

I have not decided and don't say that I already have. I percieve that you say that because your arguments are not enough to convince. So, stop pressuming you know something, that you don't, and that you are privy to the mind of God, and that you know really what happens after death, because the truth is, you could be as wrong as the next man.

I am willing to be convinced, I just haven't yet because if something is indeed the truth, it will be true even with skepticism, and it will be convincing. So far, christianity hasn't convinced me.

Why do you even care what I think? You said that you don't believe what I believe so who cares what I think will happen. I did not say that you will burn in Hell. I said that based on my belief that Jesus will return and based on his teachings in the Bible, I genuinely hope in my heart that you will be ready when he returns. I am just curious why you get so worked up over a Christian telling you that they hope you will be ready when Jesus comes and not over the people out there saying that you better be ready for December 21, 2012. They are telling you that you are going to die on that date. Are you just as angry with them as you are at me for believing the prophecies of the Bible? And if not, why?

 

[Joveia]

Satan is not need for it and I think to say that is going off the deep end. Satan caused Eve to be decieved and eat of the fruit. You are implying that Satan does the work of the Holy spirit. I think your theology is crumbling before you. You are making unbiblical and wothless claims to jump to a conclusion why it is ok for Satan to cause havoc and yet keep him alive. You are implying by doing evil that Satan is doing God's will. Next, you are telling me to read the bible in such a way that I HAVE to accept it and find a way for contradictions in theology to survive. Maybe, this is fine for you, but not for me.

I think without Satan the Fall would have happened anyway, it's just that it would have taken longer. And all of us would have made the same choice had we been there, I'd imagine.

I think God allowing Satan to roam free is a bit like the 'trolley problem' in philosophy. Let's say a trolley is rushing forward and will kill 5 people unless someone pulls a switch. If they pull the switch then only one person dies on the other set of tracks. The right thing to do is to pull the switch. So in a similar way, if millions of people reject God because they don't realise how awful it is to be separated from God in this life, then maybe it's a greater good for God to allow a being that magnifies our own evil. Having said that we can't make a similar decision because only God can make such a judgement call with infinite knowledge.

So, it is selfish for him to want to have him feel better while he is being tortured in hell? Is it not selfish not to let him feel better? I think that is a much crueler thing. Oh, thats right, its Gods plan to let us burn, while you just watch us.

In hell I believe you will be able to do whatever you want and serve your own interests over anyone else's... and it will be the worst possible thing that could ever happen to somebody. Here's a quote I have saved about what hell will be like from the plot of a Twilight Zone episode called A Nice Place to Visit:

"A two-bit thug, shot to death by the police, wakes up on the far side. Given his life of crime, he is puzzled to find himself in what he takes to be heaven: a penthouse of Pascalian divertissement has been provided for him in which he can sate his every sensuous appetite. The supply of booze and broads is endless, and he can't lose at the gaming tables. But soon enough our man tires of the 'good life' and heads for the door — which is locked. Turning to his host, the thug complains that he'd rather be in the other place. "This is the other place!" the host demonically laughs."