Love of the state

[Tiberius Lee]

When we have a large number of people being taught how to hate one's own country and encourages the burning and stomping on the country's flag, sitting at the national anthem, and that any form of support for the country at all is racist, transphobic, or some other such thing because every institution created within western civilization as a whole is evil, then naturally anything whatsoever positive concerning the country is going to be viewed as extreme "nationalism" by comparison.

What any of these has to do with Christianity? The OP question is “should we put country or God first”?

And the simple Biblical answer is – If you walk with Christ, the world will hate you, if you are Christian you live in a world but you don’t belong in the world . Either you are “citizen of haven or citizen of the world ( country) , you can’t be both.

 

[Tiberius Lee]

Well the Christian Right has been documented for decades now. Happy to alter my post however.

Here is the problem with Christians around the world - “the woman you gave me, made me eat the fruit”, same old excuse since Adam and Eve. Rather then taking responsibility , correcting their path and walk with God , Christians always find an excuse. American left , American liberal, gay and lesbian ( I am sure you have those in your country) has nothing to do with why American Christians put country before God, yet as you can see so many are egger to blame left and liberal then looking into their own heart.

 

[bekkilyn]

What any of these has to do with Christianity? The OP question is “should we put country or God first”?

And the simple Biblical answer is – If you walk with Christ, the world will hate you, if you are Christian you live in a world but you don’t belong in the world . Either you are “citizen of haven or citizen of the world ( country) , you can’t be both.

The apostle Paul was a Roman citizen so it would seem that we can be both a citizen of a human government and a citizen of heaven. He even used his Roman citizenship as an advantage in his missionary work.

When Jesus spoke of "the world," he wasn't speaking about physical geography. He also didn't instruct people to hate and destroy the countries they lived in. In fact, he said, "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's."

 

[Mark Quayle]

As an American but lived abroad as a missionary Kid , I will tell you that Outside US and few handful western countries, Christians around the world don’t put State over God. I will let you speak for UK and EU but from American perspective, nationalism is embedded in Christian doctrine here. ‘America founded on Judi-Christian philosophy”, “America founded to gave European pilgrimage safe haven” , “America is Christian nation” etc.

I often remember native Indian Christians would ask me , “ why do you have American flag in the church”. As of today I can’t answer that question from Biblical point of view.

There are no doubt several reasons for the American flag in the Christian churches in America. My first thought has to do with the fact that politics, like it or not, is not entirely a secular matter to believers. In fact, if the Bible is to be believed about walking with God, nothing is entirely secular, to a believer. Everything has something to do with God. But yeah, who knows why they do that.

From the POV of an MK (I'm one, too) the notion of America becoming a politically Christian nation —I.e. a theocracy (there's a better word for it that isn't coming to me)— is abhorrent to me. Until Christ himself reigns, I want no religious body governing this land. I love the first amendment.

 

[Tiberius Lee]

The apostle Paul was a Roman citizen so it would seem that we can be both a citizen of a human government and a citizen of heaven. He even used his Roman citizenship as an advantage in his missionary work.

When Jesus spoke of "the world," he wasn't speaking about physical geography. He also didn't instruct people to hate and destroy the countries they lived in. In fact, he said, "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's."

N.T. doctrine is very simple, all believers regardless of race, color, geography , nationality, is the “Body of Christ=Church” and the “Kingdom of God” is a spiritual kingdom and not a physical kingdom. If you are a Christian you deny the world and yourself, if you are Christian, you love your God almighty with all your heart, if you are Christian you follow Jesus Christi and only Jesus Christ, you can’t server two master. You are either children of God or children of the world, you can’t be both. If you are Christian you are either citizen of haven or Citizen of the world, you can’t be both.

Having said that , I am an American and I love this country like any one else. But if I have to chose Christ or America, I will chose Christ. If I have to give my life either to Christ or America, I will choose Christ. If I have to chose between Bible or US constitution, I will chose Bible. No one is telling anyone to hate your country, do harm to your country. But if I have to chose between my country ( USA) and Christ, I will always chose Christ.

 

[bekkilyn]

N.T. doctrine is very simple, all believers regardless of race, color, geography , nationality, is the “Body of Christ=Church” and the “Kingdom of God” is a spiritual kingdom and not a physical kingdom. If you are a Christian you deny the world and yourself, if you are Christian, you love your God almighty with all your heart, if you are Christian you follow Jesus Christi and only Jesus Christ, you can’t server two master. You are either children of God or children of the world, you can’t be both. If you are Christian you are either citizen of haven or Citizen of the world, you can’t be both.

Having said that , I am an American and I love this country like any one else. But if I have to chose Christ or America, I will chose Christ. If I have to give my life either to Christ or America, I will choose Christ. If I have to chose between Bible or US constitution, I will chose Bible. No one is telling anyone to hate your country, do harm to your country. But if I have to chose between my country ( USA) and Christ, I will always chose Christ.

Where I primarily disagree with you in your statement is when you said, "No one is telling anyone to hate your country, do harm to your country."

Yes, they are. They are teaching it in schools and promoting anti-American values. They are teaching and programming children to become activists for Marxism, using identity instead of class, but it's the exact same thing. If you study Karl Marx and The Communist Manifesto and you study what happened in China's Cultural Revolution and how over the course of ten years, children were pitted against their parents and elders, warring against the traditional values they had been taught in order to create the revolution. It's happening here and its becoming more and more visible by the day. It is not a conspiracy. What was happening over there is happening here in the U.S.

Perhaps not so coincidentally, neo-Marxist revolution also seeks to overturn Christian values and teachings as well. Yes, we put Christ first in everything, but the war isn't between America and Christ because the Marxists are waring against both America and Christ (because America and western civilization in general is Christian by culture and also because they don't want any other religion being dominant or in existence besides the "state".)

The war is between democratic western values and the values of Marxism. One can fight this war in support of democracy AND still follow Christ and no one besides the Marxists is attempting to make you choose between country or Christ. In fact, democracy encourages freedom of religion and through democracy we have not experienced so much of the inquisitions, religious wars, theocracies, and all of those other horrific things because we have that freedom. China doesn't have this freedom. Christians over there have to meet in secret and are often persecuted, same as other religions. That's where we are headed too unless we actively oppose the Marxism that has its tendrils deep inside the government, corporations, schools, media, and everything else.

Just last year I thought it was crazy. Now I do not.

Yes, serve Christ before all, but there is also nothing wrong with defending one's country and way of life from invasion, both physical and spiritual of satanic values that willfully and directly stand in opposition and defiance of God.

 

[Tiberius Lee]

Where I primarily disagree with you in your statement is when you said, "No one is telling anyone to hate your country, do harm to your country."

Yes, they are. They are teaching it in schools and promoting anti-American values. They are teaching and programming children to become activists for Marxism, using identity instead of class, but it's the exact same thing. If you study Karl Marx and The Communist Manifesto and you study what happened in China's Cultural Revolution and how over the course of ten years, children were pitted against their parents and elders, warring against the traditional values they had been taught in order to create the revolution. It's happening here and its becoming more and more visible by the day. It is not a conspiracy. What was happening over there is happening here in the U.S.

Perhaps not so coincidentally, neo-Marxist revolution also seeks to overturn Christian values and teachings as well. Yes, we put Christ first in everything, but the war isn't between America and Christ because the Marxists are waring against both America and Christ (because America and western civilization in general is Christian by culture and also because they don't want any other religion being dominant or in existence besides the "state".)

The war is between democratic western values and the values of Marxism. One can fight this war in support of democracy AND still follow Christ and no one besides the Marxists is attempting to make you choose between country or Christ. In fact, democracy encourages freedom of religion and through democracy we have not experienced so much of the inquisitions, religious wars, theocracies, and all of those other horrific things because we have that freedom. China doesn't have this freedom. Christians over there have to meet in secret and are often persecuted, same as other religions. That's where we are headed too unless we actively oppose the Marxism that has its tendrils deep inside the government, corporations, schools, media, and everything else.

Just last year I thought it was crazy. Now I do not.

Yes, serve Christ before all, but there is also nothing wrong with defending one's country and way of life from invasion, both physical and spiritual of satanic values that willfully and directly stand in opposition and defiance of God.

I agree with Churchill, Democracy is the best political system out there. However the idea that we must keep democracy alive to keep Christianity alive is not only wrong but DATA prove the opposite. In 1900 82% world Christians lived in Global North (Western countries), but in 2020 only 33% Christians lives in Western Countries, rest of the Christians lives in Latin America, Africa and Asia. Today most Christians lives in Africa.

Is Christianity Shrinking or Shifting? - Lausanne Movement

Democracy is as much enemy to Christianity as Marxism is, Western values is as much enemy to Christianity as Marxism. Democratic western values and the values of Marxism both are enemy of Christianity. Christianity doesn’t depend on what political value a region has. Christianity doesn’t depend on any thing but Christ himself “i will build my church on this rock ( faith)” . People need to stop worshipping all this ism ; “conservatism” , “Socialism” “Marxism” , “liberalism” and focus on Christ and Christ alone.

No one in America teaching anti-American value. Just because you don’t agree with it doesn’t make it anti-America. Because I love America so much that I am absolutely fine with keening during national anthem to show my frustration on certain value. , I am absolutely fine with stumping American flags to make a point and that doesn’t diminish my love for the country. As a matter of fact, I love America so much that I am not afraid to question American value and tradition. You on the other hand love America so much that you want to stand during national anthem and put American flag above all. That’s great, I will not question your love for the country, I just ask you not to question my love for America.

No one is invading American way of life. Some of us ( Americans) wants to change the way of life in America. Just because you don’t like it doesn’t make it Anti-American.

 

[bekkilyn]

I agree with Churchill, Democracy is the best political system out there. However the idea that we must keep democracy alive to keep Christianity alive is not only wrong but DATA prove the opposite. In 1900 82% world Christians lived in Global North (Western countries), but in 2020 only 33% Christians lives in Western Countries, rest of the Christians lives in Latin America, Africa and Asia. Today most Christians lives in Africa.

Is Christianity Shrinking or Shifting? - Lausanne Movement

View attachment 310473
Democracy is as much enemy to Christianity as Marxism is, Western values is as much enemy to Christianity as Marxism. Democratic western values and the values of Marxism both are enemy of Christianity. Christianity doesn’t depend on what political value a region has. Christianity doesn’t depend on any thing but Christ himself “i will build my church on this rock ( faith)” . People need to stop worshipping all this ism ; “conservatism” , “Socialism” “Marxism” , “liberalism” and focus on Christ and Christ alone.

No one in America teaching anti-American value. Just because you don’t agree with it doesn’t make it anti-America. Because I love America so much that I am absolutely fine with keening during national anthem to show my frustration on certain value. , I am absolutely fine with stumping American flags to make a point and that doesn’t diminish my love for the country. As a matter of fact, I love America so much that I am not afraid to question American value and tradition. You on the other hand love America so much that you want to stand during national anthem and put American flag above all. That’s great, I will not question your love for the country, I just ask you not to question my love for America.

No one is invading American way of life. Some of us ( Americans) wants to change the way of life in America. Just because you don’t like it doesn’t make it Anti-American.

Only God himself can keep Christianity alive and Christianity can exist anywhere, even in Communist Red China, but if you think that Democracy, that values freedom of religion, and Marxism, that does not value freedom of religion or of practically anything else, are equally antagonistic to Christianity, then I have to disagree because they are not the same and it is not putting America above God to say so.

If you actually do believe that Democracy is the best system of government, then you will at some point need stand up for America and Democracy and act to protect it rather than acting to tear it down or be duped into a type of Marxist activism that does indeed want to change the way of life in America and you can look towards Red China to see exactly what that final result looks like.

There must be some reason all these people from all these many different countries are wanting to escape what they have there and trying to get into the U.S. rather than into China, Russia, Venezuela, or any of these other "utopias" that promised everything and delivered nothing.

Our own cultural revolution is in process driven by the values and principles of Marxism that are in opposition to God's values and principles. The "red guard" is already being programmed in the schools. Who knows how long before those same people trying so desperately to get into the country will be trying desperately to leave, but then where would they go when there is no Democracy left to run to?

 

[Tiberius Lee]

Only God himself can keep Christianity alive and Christianity can exist anywhere, even in Communist Red China, but if you think that Democracy, that values freedom of religion, and Marxism, that does not value freedom of religion or of practically anything else, are equally antagonistic to Christianity, then I have to disagree because they are not the same and it is not putting America above God to say so.

If you actually do believe that Democracy is the best system of government, then you will at some point need stand up for America and Democracy and act to protect it rather than acting to tear it down or be duped into a type of Marxist activism that does indeed want to change the way of life in America and you can look towards Red China to see exactly what that final result looks like.

There must be some reason all these people from all these many different countries are wanting to escape what they have there and trying to get into the U.S. rather than into China, Russia, Venezuela, or any of these other "utopias" that promised everything and delivered nothing.

Our own cultural revolution is in process driven by the values and principles of Marxism that are in opposition to God's values and principles. The "red guard" is already being programmed in the schools. Who knows how long before those same people trying so desperately to get into the country will be trying desperately to leave, but then where would they go when there is no Democracy left to run to?

I agree with you , Democracy is the best political system. But that doesn’t mean if some American believe that Marxism is good or want to teach that in school, I would brand them as Anti-American. One of the great thing about Democracy is that we can have diverse opinion. Best way to protect democracy is by allowing other ideas are taught and debated in schools, university and among citizen. You can’t suppress ideas you don’t like in the name of democracy.

 

[bekkilyn]

I agree with you , Democracy is the best political system. But that doesn’t mean if some American believe that Marxism is good or want to teach that in school, I would brand them as Anti-American. One of the great thing about Democracy is that we can have diverse opinion. Best way to protect democracy is by allowing other ideas are taught and debated in schools, university and among citizen. You can’t suppress ideas you don’t like in the name of democracy.

Which is why we need to remain very suspicious whenever and wherever we see speech being cancelled and suppressed. Many schools are not allowing other ideas to be taught and debated. Funny that you bring that up because I just watched this video this morning on that same subject.

The problem is not that they are teaching about Marxism in schools. I agree that it should indeed be taught. It likely needs to be taught far more than it is. The problem is that they are deliberately programming children to become activists for Marxism and deliberately teaching children that America is evil and based entirely on evil so that these children will be more inclined to accept and evangelize anti-American values. After all, who wants to support a country that is based on evil? It's deliberate and intended to spark the revolution.

 

[grasping the after wind]

When I look at this post, it's literally just an impenetrable wall of emotion. Thank you anyway.

What's worse a wall of emotion or a wall of condescension?

 

[Tiberius Lee]

Which is why we need to remain very suspicious whenever and wherever we see speech being cancelled and suppressed. Many schools are not allowing other ideas to be taught and debated. Funny that you bring that up because I just watched this video this morning on that same subject.

The problem is not that they are teaching about Marxism in schools. I agree that it should indeed be taught. It likely needs to be taught far more than it is. The problem is that they are deliberately programming children to become activists for Marxism and deliberately teaching children that America is evil and based entirely on evil so that these children will be more inclined to accept and evangelize anti-American values. After all, who wants to support a country that is based on evil? It's deliberate and intended to spark the revolution.

You seems to be focused on ‘Anti-American” thing. As I said no one is teaching anyone to hate America. Just because you don’t like an idea doesn’t make it anti-American. Just because some of us don’t want to do things which has been done 200 years doesn’t make us anti-American. Just because we kneel down during national anthem doesn’t make us anti-American. And so what if someone wants to implement Marxism in America, does that make him anti-American, absolutely not, I think Marxism is s a failed policy but if someone think it can make a better America, then let him be an activist, let him campaign, teach , preach and be a activist.

 

[bekkilyn]

You seems to be focused on ‘Anti-American” thing. As I said no one is teaching anyone to hate America. Just because you don’t like an idea doesn’t make it anti-American. Just because some of us don’t want to do things which has been done 200 years doesn’t make us anti-American. Just because we kneel down during national anthem doesn’t make us anti-American. And so what if someone wants to implement Marxism in America, does that make him anti-American, absolutely not, I think Marxism is s a failed policy but if someone think it can make a better America, then let him be an activist, let him campaign, teach , preach and be a activist.

If it walks, talks, and quacks like a duck....

 

[Tiberius Lee]

If it walks, talks, and quacks like a duck....

oh you mean like this .. trying to overthrow democracy ... yea .. i agree with you now.

 

[bekkilyn]

oh you mean like this .. trying to overthrow democracy ... yea .. i agree with you now.

View attachment 310488

A few very visible crackpots who didn't attempt to hide anything and who are currently in jail for a single day event of stupidity isn't the best comparison to a decades-long deliberate Marxist agenda based on lies and deception to overturn democracy in America. The January 6 insurrection was doomed to failure before it began, but you spend a generation or so programming the minds of children in school to hate their own country...well that's a bit more difficult to root out and defeat, and yet it must be rooted out, made visible, and ultimately defeated.

 

[Tiberius Lee]

A few very visible crackpots who didn't attempt to hide anything and who are currently in jail for a single day event of stupidity isn't the best comparison to a decades-long deliberate Marxist agenda based on lies and deception to overturn democracy in America. The January 6 insurrection was doomed to failure before it began, but you spend a generation or so programming the minds of children in school to hate their own country...well that's a bit more difficult to root out and defeat, and yet it must be rooted out, made visible, and ultimately defeated.

Terrorist on Jan 6th are the e only people in America who tried to overturn democracy in recent days yet you can’t be honest enough to call them what they are but use adjective like “crockpot” to diminish their activity, But teachers teaching in school are the anti-American.? It clearly show how biased you are with your opinion.

 

[bekkilyn]

Terrorist on Jan 6th are the e only people in America who tried to overturn democracy in recent days yet you can’t be honest enough to call them what they are but use adjective like “crockpot” to diminish their activity, But teachers teaching in school are the anti-American.? It clearly show how biased you are with your opinion.

Yes, I am biased, and for good reason. I'm not talking about "teachers". There are many good teachers and many who are also opposed to the Marxist pedagogical lens being used and promoted and enforced in their schools. These teachers are also being silenced, canceled, and/or "retired" from duty, so to speak, in many cases, replaced by social programmers who care nothing about educating students but who are militants for the narrative. It is deliberate that so many students are "graduated" and still know nothing to very little about anything. The "conning" of an entire generation.

January 6 was horrible, but it was dealt with. The neo-Marxist programming infiltrating our culture also needs to be made visible, uprooted, and dealt with accordingly as it is much more insidious, evil, and dangerous, and has had a few decades to fester. There may not be much time left. Many of us on the left or who have been on the left are not at all happy to have been duped by a "side" that has taken our classical liberal values and perverted and/or replaced them into something else entirely.

 

[Tiberius Lee]

Yes, I am biased, and for good reason. I'm not talking about "teachers". There are many good teachers and many who are also opposed to the Marxist pedagogical lens being used and promoted and enforced in their schools. These teachers are also being silenced, canceled, and/or "retired" from duty, so to speak, in many cases, replaced by social programmers who care nothing about educating students but who are militants for the narrative. It is deliberate that so many students are "graduated" and still know nothing to very little about anything. The "conning" of an entire generation.

January 6 was horrible, but it was dealt with. The neo-Marxist programming infiltrating our culture also needs to be made visible, uprooted, and dealt with accordingly as it is much more insidious, evil, and dangerous, and has had a few decades to fester. There may not be much time left. Many of us on the left or who have been on the left are not at all happy to have been duped by a "side" that has taken our classical liberal values and perverted and/or replaced them into something else entirely.

In 2002 I was visiting some missionary friend in Bangladesh where I met some local Muslims. We had nice conversation and they would say the 9/11 hijacker who crashed plane, these are misguided people, these hijacker are not true Muslim, but under no circumstance they would admit these people who killed 3000 Americans are “terrorist’ ,. These Muslims don’t like talking about Osama Bin but they love talking about American forging policy is the reason 9/11 occurred. If America had better forging policy , America would have not been attacked. I walked away from that conversation with the understanding is that these Muslims may not kill themselves to kill Americans, but they don’t mind if someone else do tt.

You are doing the same thing. The people who attacked our Capital , the people who wanted to overthrow legitimately elected POTUS, you can’t even call them by the name who they are - terrorist/ enemy of America, , rather you call them “ crockpot” , “misguided” and move on to talk about teacher who teach things you don’t like. I am sorry , here is the news flash , there are other theory in the world, and you and I may not like it, but there are others who will accept those theories, they will promote those theories. It’s funny that you call teacher a “militants, who has different view than you , but the people who attacked our Capital you can’t call them “ enemy of the People’.

 

[bekkilyn]

In 2002 I was visiting some missionary friend in Bangladesh where I met some local Muslims. We had nice conversation and they would say the 9/11 hijacker who crashed plane, these are misguided people, these hijacker are not true Muslim, but under no circumstance they would admit these people who killed 3000 Americans are “terrorist’ ,. These Muslims don’t like talking about Osama Bin but they love talking about American forging policy is the reason 9/11 occurred. If America had better forging policy , America would have not been attacked. I walked away from that conversation with the understanding is that these Muslims may not kill themselves to kill Americans, but they don’t mind if someone else do tt.

You are doing the same thing. The people who attacked our Capital , the people who wanted to overthrow legitimately elected POTUS, you can’t even call them by the name who they are - terrorist/ enemy of America, , rather you call them “ crockpot” , “misguided” and move on to talk about teacher who teach things you don’t like. I am sorry , here is the news flash , there are other theory in the world, and you and I may not like it, but there are others who will accept those theories, they will promote those theories. It’s funny that you call teacher a “militants, who has different view than you , but the people who attacked our Capital you can’t call them “ enemy of the People’.

Pro-Trump protesters storm US Capitol as lawmakers gather to count electoral votes

When you finally refrain from making false assumptions about my views, perhaps then we might be able to have an actual conversation.

 

[Estrid]

Yep. If you are willing to live and die for something, that thing has become an idol. What more can you possibly give?

Its not idolatry to defend your nation
with your life. It is a duty.