Love of the state

[Mark Quayle]

I think that for many of us our love of our state has taken root and is equal to and in some cases greater than our love for God.

For many of us love for the state is prior to love for God. Our Christianity actually grows out of a total devotion to the state.

I think that there are many of us who would die more readily for the state than for God. For others, their identity as citizens simply reaches far deeper down into their soul.

As time goes on, this is becoming more and more painfully apparent. Something has crept into the church. There is an implicit and unquestioned belief that the state is a sacred institution. As Christians we are vulnerable to the kind of monarchical thinking that politicians can leverage to manipulate. For many Christians, the state is somewhere between Earth and Heaven, between the soul and God.

I know that my post is quite likely to inflame quite a few, but I also know that it's crucial that it be said in an objective, and non-judgemental way. Hopefully this cuts it, and perhaps even generates healthy and self-critical discussion from all sides.

I'm definitely guilty of placing far too much hope in my own political heroes and heroines. There is absolutely a part of me that believes that there is a form of salvation to be obtained through political activity. For me Human Rights action is sacred. I sometimes worry that it is in competition with my allegiance to the kingdom.

This isn't a left/right thing. At the moment, sure the Christian Right is centre stage, but I wouldn't be surprised if , 50 years from now, we have a coterie of left leaning progressive Christians who are in much the same position. This splitting of the church down the centre is all political machination. It doesn't come from within.

When I saw your title, "Love of State", my first thought was the amazing phenomenon of how leftists trust the State. Through experiences and watching people, I have long since held the opinion that people want an authority over them, and love royalty, for some odd reason. They even support the dual-level justice system, assuming it is right for those in charge to have more rights than the common man, and that common man is here for the service of the royalty, while royalty directs the lives of the commoners. People want to accept the word of those they look up to.

As it turns out, I think, there is a natural reason for this —we are built for God. The State is just a sick substitute.

 

[bèlla]

I don’t have an affinity for right or left. I’ve seen behavior from both that disturbs me. I’m an American citizen because God made it so. That was His plan.

While I understand gratitude and expressing thankfulness for our blessings. The patriotism exhibited does little to honor Him. Differences shouldn’t result in screaming matches or violence. Strife is rampant and no one’s accountable. Love of country is the scapegoat.

I don’t argue or try to reason. If they want to slug it out I let them. I avoid the fray and pray against situations as He directs.

~bella

 

[Eftsoon]

When I saw your title, "Love of State", my first thought was the amazing phenomenon of how leftists trust the State. Through experiences and watching people, I have long since held the opinion that people want an authority over them, and love royalty, for some odd reason. They even support the dual-level justice system, assuming it is right for those in charge to have more rights than the common man, and that common man is here for the service of the royalty, while royalty directs the lives of the commoners. People want to accept the word of those they look up to.

As it turns out, I think, there is a natural reason for this —we are built for God. The State is just a sick substitute.

The Israelites cried out for a king .God warned them that kings would abuse them and make their lives a general misery. They wanted one anyway. The rest is biblical history.

 

[Eftsoon]

The patriotism exhibited does little to honor Him. Differences shouldn’t result in screaming matches or violence. Strife is rampant and no one’s accountable. Love of country is the scapegoat.
~bella

Yep. If you are willing to live and die for something, that thing has become an idol. What more can you possibly give?

 

[Hazelelponi]

What "Christian Right" actually IS, in operation, would be interesting to learn, though, if it's something really to be feared. Generally speaking, I like Christianity.

From what I am understanding, a Christian nationalist is first a Christian, as well as a person who believes politically in nations and borders, citizenry ect., instead of this whole new world order / global community nonsense where there are open borders.

 

[bekkilyn]

From what I am understanding, a Christian nationalist is first a Christian, as well as a person who believes politically in nations and borders, citizenry ect., instead of this whole new world order / global community nonsense where there are open borders.

I suppose the thinking here is that provided one is devoted to Christ, no one need take responsibility for anything and just allow countries and everything else to become a free-for-all.

 

[Taodeching]

Yep. If you are willing to live and die for something, that thing has become an idol. What more can you possibly give?

I disagree. There are things that require great sacrifice. Christianity for one, a person should be willing to live and die for that and that is not an idol. The family for another to live and die for, liberty is a third is to live ans die for and none of these things are idols. I am not sure you really know what an idol is and it is none of these things.

From what I am understanding, a Christian nationalist is first a Christian, as well as a person who believes politically in nations and borders, citizenry ect., instead of this whole new world order / global community nonsense where there are open borders.

I would say that adequately sums up my position.

 

[Eftsoon]

I disagree. There are things that require great sacrifice. Christianity for one, a person should be willing to live and die for that and that is not an idol. The family for another to live and die for, liberty is a third is to live ans die for and none of these things are idols. I am not sure you really know what an idol is and it is none of these things.



I would say that adequately sums up my position.

We don't live and die for our family, liberty or for Christianity. We live and die for Christ. All else should flow out of that.The problem that I am alluding to lies in this. It is absolutely possible to idolise a partner or a child. CS Lewis alludes to this in the Great Divorce. It is equally possible to make an idol out of the state or 'liberty'.

 

[Hazelelponi]

. It is equally possible to make an idol out of the state or 'liberty

The entire reason for coming to the U.S. and creating a government such as we have was to protect citizens - God given - rights to worship and live according to conscience and Scripture.

I will defend this, as God wills. It is He who created this last bastion of freedom on this earth, it's ours to lose and I won't see it taken from my children and my children's children.

 

[Taodeching]

We don't live and die for our family, liberty or for Christianity

You may in your world but real people do live and die for those things. I must say it is a pretty poor excuse of a human that wouldn't die for his family.

No greater love has any man than he lay down his life for his friends

 

[Eftsoon]

You may in your world but real people do live and die for those things. I must say it is a pretty poor excuse of a human that wouldn't die for his family.

No greater love has any man than he lay down his life for his friends

A low blow. Notice i said that everything flows from that. I.e. we first lay everything down for Christ, and everything falls into place after. Sure I'm willing to live and die for those I love, but I am working (with patchy success) to make sure that neither family nor personal ideals receive my firstfruits.
The problem that I'm referring to is Christians placing political allegiance on par with God, conflating the two and/or according it an intermediary role in their relationship with God.

 

[Hazelelponi]

The problem that I'm referring to is Christians placing political allegiance on par with God, conflating the two and/or according it an intermediary role in their relationship with God.

I agree we see this in our day, people crying for (big) government to save them from death and so forth, instead of trusting in God.

However, we do have a way God wants us to live and be while on this earth, and sometimes that comes into conflict with various political agendas. Since we have a voice and a vote here in America, we have a certain responsibility to use it with God in mind.

 

[bèlla]

Yep. If you are willing to live and die for something, that thing has become an idol. What more can you possibly give?

I wouldn’t equate it to idolatry as a rule. But you see their priorities nonetheless.

I wouldn’t lay down my life for everything or everyone. Women aren’t usually wired that way. We’ll fight tooth and nail for loved ones but less so for strangers. That’s a man’s domain. The desire to protect is his strength. Let him have it. I battle on my knees instead.

Personal beliefs and biblical mandates are conflated. God is assigned to things He never willed or mentioned. It’s difficult for me to hold those notions when I see it through the word.

~bella

 

[Eftsoon]

I wouldn’t equate it to idolatry as a rule. But you see their priorities nonetheless.

I wouldn’t lay down my life for everything or everyone. Women aren’t usually wired that way. We’ll fight tooth and nail for loved ones but less so for strangers. That’s a man’s domain. The desire to protect is his strength. Let him have it. I battle on my knees instead.

Personal beliefs and biblical mandates are conflated. God is assigned to things He never willed or mentioned. It’s difficult for me to hold those notions when I see it through the word.

~bella

I was imprecise. I meant living and dying for something to the extent that, without it, life would be rendered unliveable. It occupies centre stage.

 

[Eftsoon]

However, we do have a way God wants us to live and be while on this earth,

I don't see that aligning with the values of any of the parties in office - in any country. I see glimpses of it scattered throughout the various parties, but none embody it in its fullness. There is always an emphasis of one particular subset of values to the exclusion of others.
"My kingdom is not of this world".

The danger is that we try to build God's kingdom through the exercise of state power. The inevitable result is tyranny as elected leaders wield religious and political power over a population in their thrall.

 

[bèlla]

I was imprecise. I meant living and dying for something to the extent that, without it, life would be rendered unliveable. It occupies centre stage.

Thank you for clarifying. Loss is inevitable and would sadden me. But my continuance means He isn’t done. I have to bear up and let Him sustain me.

It’s easy to believe you love and trust Him until he touches something dear to your heart. For some, that includes their country. I’m blessed to dwell in Shem’s land. But Esau is its master. He doesn’t heed the Most High. He has a heart of stone. Bent to war and dominance. Why would I love that?

~bella

 

[Eftsoon]

Thank you for clarifying. Loss is inevitable and would sadden me. But my continuance means He isn’t done. I have to bear up and let Him sustain me.

Totally with you there

It’s easy to believe you love and trust Him until he touches something dear to your heart. For some, that includes their country..

This is one of the deeper messages of Job I think. God reduces Job to essentially nothing, and we can see that at the end, when everything has been shed, we can say:

But I know that my Redeemer lives, and in the end He will stand upon the earth. Even after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God" Job 19:25-26

The outer life (Skin) is shed, but the inner life (flesh) goes on

I’m blessed to dwell in Shem’s land. But Esau is its master. He doesn’t heed the Most High. He has a heart of stone. Bent to war and dominance. Why would I love that?

I'm not 100% sure I'm signed up to the idea that America (or Europe?) is the land of Shem haha. I really don't like that interpretation of Noah's brothers very much. It's been used to justify a lot of racism past and present. I think that maybe you're using it in a more poetic way though. I 100% agree anyway. The state is so antithetical to everything Christ taught. 'Blessed are the peacemakers'!!

 

[bèlla]

But I know that my Redeemer lives, and in the end He will stand upon the earth. Even after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God" Job 19:25-26

Yes. When the Lord delivered me I asked Him why He allowed me to suffer and He sent me to Job. When the pain subsided and I matured and understood His plan the experience made sense. It prepared me for things to come and deepened the root. Like Job, my restoration began afterwards. I don’t regret it.

The outer life (Skin) is shed, but the inner life (flesh) goes on

Transmutation. A fitting word as the year draws to a close. Questioning what we’ve shed and maintained is a worthy reflection.

I'm not 100% sure I'm signed up to the idea that America (or Europe?) is the land of Shem haha. I really don't like that interpretation of Noah's brothers very much.

There’s a thread on Noah you may want to peruse. In respect to the word, the division was dispensed by lots. Shem was first and received the best portion. Noah expresses his pleasure and praises the Lord for guiding the process.

Evil men take things of God and distort them for wicked purposes. As we see in our culture. Shem’s lands are neither hot or cold but a blend of each. The blessing was bestowed upon the soil. It doesn’t say the inhabitants are blessed. Which refutes a popular statement regarding America.

The oath works in tandem and is in effect until the day of judgment. The promise goes beyond them and extends to their descendants. And the Lord didn’t revoke it. They agreed not to settle in each other’s lands. Japeth and Ham broke it.

The outworking of divine matters don’t always reveal themselves in the current period. Sometimes the things you’re grappling with are the result of older issues coming to the fore.

The laws of sowing and reaping aren’t set aside. The seed should garner more caution than it does. Because it multiplies. One seed can yield a harvest of good or bad. You get more than you plant. Sometimes He alters it and sometimes He doesn’t.

It's been used to justify a lot of racism past and present.

Only the truth can set us free. There are parallels between the things they did to others and what we’re experiencing today. The decimation of families and emasculation of men come to mind.

There’s an interesting article you may appreciate on hurricanes and their connection to slave routes. You can find others along this line.

~bella

 

[Eftsoon]

There’s a thread on Noah you may want to peruse. In respect to the word, the division was dispensed by lots. Shem was first and received the best portion. Noah expresses his pleasure and praises the Lord for guiding the process.

I mainly object to the racial theories derived from the story of Shem, Ham and Japheth.
Misinformation: Black Race Originated from Noah’s Son Ham | Drupal. I haven't seen any scriptural basis for it.
I think that Europe has obviously eaten the fat of the land. It's just that I hesitate to couch that in terms of Divine favour because of the fact that much of Europe's prosperity is the fruit of colonialism and oppression. This extends to America, which is a European outgrowth.

Only the truth can set us free. There are parallels between the things they did to others and what we’re experiencing today. The decimation of families and emasculation of men come to mind.

The mental health crisis that we're seeing throughout the west is indicative of a creeping despair. I do believe that we aren't ahistorical. A modern Brit is not untethered from the history of empire, it still has resonance today. The reality of those crimes rings down the centuries.

There’s an interesting article you may appreciate on hurricanes and their connection to slave routes. You can find others along this line.

The symbolism of the tears of the African nations is really powerful. Thank you for sharing it.

 

[Tiberius Lee]

I think that for many of us our love of our state has taken root and is equal to and in some cases greater than our love for God.

For many of us love for the state is prior to love for God. Our Christianity actually grows out of a total devotion to the state.

I think that there are many of us who would die more readily for the state than for God. For others, their identity as citizens simply reaches far deeper down into their soul.

As time goes on, this is becoming more and more painfully apparent. Something has crept into the church. There is an implicit and unquestioned belief that the state is a sacred institution. As Christians we are vulnerable to the kind of monarchical thinking that politicians can leverage to manipulate. For many Christians, the state is somewhere between Earth and Heaven, between the soul and God.

I know that my post is quite likely to inflame quite a few, but I also know that it's crucial that it be said in an objective, and non-judgemental way. Hopefully this cuts it, and perhaps even generates healthy and self-critical discussion from all sides.

I'm definitely guilty of placing far too much hope in my own political heroes and heroines. There is absolutely a part of me that believes that there is a form of salvation to be obtained through political activity. For me Human Rights action is sacred. I sometimes worry that it is in competition with my allegiance to the kingdom.

This isn't a left/right thing. At the moment, sure the Christian Right is centre stage, but I wouldn't be surprised if , 50 years from now, we have a coterie of left leaning progressive Christians who are in much the same position. This splitting of the church down the centre is all political machination. It doesn't come from within.

As an American but lived abroad as a missionary Kid , I will tell you that Outside US and few handful western countries, Christians around the world don’t put State over God. I will let you speak for UK and EU but from American perspective, nationalism is embedded in Christian doctrine here. ‘America founded on Judi-Christian philosophy”, “America founded to gave European pilgrimage safe haven” , “America is Christian nation” etc.

I often remember native Indian Christians would ask me , “ why do you have American flag in the church”. As of today I can’t answer that question from Biblical point of view.