Love and Respect

[RedPonyDriver]

I still find it interesting that LinkH hasn't answered my two questions yet....


Ok...now...here's some questions for you...
Someone had a key to your house. While you were at work, they came in and stole from you...you confront them and then forgive them. Does that mean you will give them another key to your house?

Regarding divorce/remarriage...
Marriage is a covenant, right? It takes two parties to make the covenant, right? Now, if one person breaks the covenant, why should the other party hang on to that covenant? Is the covenant still valid if one party has broken it? The marriage covenant is beautifully described in Ephesians 5. There are two parties and their roles are pretty well laid out. So, if one breaks the covenant, why should the other be held to it?

Now...I would like direct answers to these questions, no dancing around.

 

[LinkH]

I still find it interesting that LinkH hasn't answered my two questions yet....


Ok...now...here's some questions for you...
Someone had a key to your house. While you were at work, they came in and stole from you...you confront them and then forgive them. Does that mean you will give them another key to your house?

I have left a lot of things like this unanswered because I'm letting the thread run down, and I'm busy in addition to the holiday business. But since you asked again, no I'm not giving out keys to my house. But I also didn't answer because I didn't see it was relevant to what you were saying. Your husband trashed his own house, too, from what you wrote. He wasn't just some friend who you'd given your spare set of keys to.

Regarding divorce/remarriage...
Marriage is a covenant, right? It takes two parties to make the covenant, right? Now, if one person breaks the covenant, why should the other party hang on to that covenant? Is the covenant still valid if one party has broken it?

Are you saying your husband broke covenant by getting angry at you, yelling at you, etc.?

When we get married, we usually go say some words in front of a preacher, priest, judge, etc. That's a western custom, not something God revealed everyone had to do to get married. Some cultures jump brooms or give bride prices or exchange dowries to cut the covenant.

Let's say a couple writes their own wedding vows. The groom (either because he doesn't put much weight on keeping his word or because he's just plain foolish) promises to put a fresh-cut rose on his wife' pillow every morning. The bride promises to never criticize her husband.

The groom manages to get a rose every day for a year, but on the 366th day, he has a cold and oversleeps and doesn't do it. His wife criticizes him, because she wants her rose and she wants it now. Does each of them have grounds for divorce because they both broke covenant?

What does what God wants have to do with this? Their stupid promises are something they made in addition to getting married. God sets the rules for marriage and we follow them. If we violate each other's rules, that doesn't mean we are free to divorce according to God's.

It's just like couples who get married and then decide to have an 'open marriage' and be swingers. They can say it's not 'cheating' because they both agree to it. But it's still adultery. They can't make it not adultery by agreeing on it.



The marriage covenant is beautifully described in Ephesians 5. There are two parties and their roles are pretty well laid out. So, if one breaks the covenant, why should the other be held to it?

Now...I would like direct answers to these questions, no dancing around.[/QUOTE]

 

[LinkH]

this: each of us is competent to discern what is true for ourselves. That we are each full of goodness.

It's written as a collective thing. We admonish one another. If someone isn't discerning or doing what's right, other believers are to admonish, exhort, etc. There is no guarantee that each individual is right all the time. That's one reason believers need each other.

I'm not in favor of post-modern type thinking where no one is sure of anything and no one I sure if anything is right or wrong-- unless someone says that something is right or wrong, then the post-modern seems pretty sure that isn't right.

so others in the Forum may have something valid to teach as much as you do, Link.

I'm certainly open to hearing good encouragement, even admonishment. I'm all for that. Of course, not all opinions are equal. And opinions that oppose truth aren't of the same value as those that support it.

Love your neighbor as yourself.
1 Corinth 13:6 RSV Love does not rejoice at wrong, but rejoices in the right.

That seems like a rather sloppy translation that introduces some unnecessary ambiguity.

New International Version
Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.

New Living Translation
It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out.

English Standard Version
it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth.

New American Standard Bible
does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;

King James Bible
Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;


Notice that supporting people in wrongdoing and opposing truth are actually unloving behaviors. Like the Leviticus 19 passage (which seems to be what Paul is expounding on in Ephesians 4, btw), one way to show love is to rebuke a neighbor who sins rather than despising him in your heart.

ENCOURAGE trumps rebuke, brother.

There is a time for both.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

I have left a lot of things like this unanswered because I'm letting the thread run down, and I'm busy in addition to the holiday business. But since you asked again, no I'm not giving out keys to my house. But I also didn't answer because I didn't see it was relevant to what you were saying. Your husband trashed his own house, too, from what you wrote. He wasn't just some friend who you'd given your spare set of keys to.




Are you saying your husband broke covenant by getting angry at you, yelling at you, etc.?

When we get married, we usually go say some words in front of a preacher, priest, judge, etc. That's a western custom, not something God revealed everyone had to do to get married. Some cultures jump brooms or give bride prices or exchange dowries to cut the covenant.

Let's say a couple writes their own wedding vows. The groom (either because he doesn't put much weight on keeping his word or because he's just plain foolish) promises to put a fresh-cut rose on his wife' pillow every morning. The bride promises to never criticize her husband.

The groom manages to get a rose every day for a year, but on the 366th day, he has a cold and oversleeps and doesn't do it. His wife criticizes him, because she wants her rose and she wants it now. Does each of them have grounds for divorce because they both broke covenant?

What does what God wants have to do with this? Their stupid promises are something they made in addition to getting married. God sets the rules for marriage and we follow them. If we violate each other's rules, that doesn't mean we are free to divorce according to God's.

It's just like couples who get married and then decide to have an 'open marriage' and be swingers. They can say it's not 'cheating' because they both agree to it. But it's still adultery. They can't make it not adultery by agreeing on it.



The marriage covenant is beautifully described in Ephesians 5. There are two parties and their roles are pretty well laid out. So, if one breaks the covenant, why should the other be held to it?

Now...I would like direct answers to these questions, no dancing around.

[/QUOTE]

Ok...you don't get it at all...at my wedding the vows were "love, honor and cherish"...none of the above happened.

You still don't get what domestic violence is. Therefore I can only conclude that you are so enamored of your own ideas that you refuse to entertain any others....remember that the next time you read of a wife who died at the hands of her husband and know that she stayed to "honor" him.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

I have left a lot of things like this unanswered because I'm letting the thread run down, and I'm busy in addition to the holiday business. But since you asked again, no I'm not giving out keys to my house. But I also didn't answer because I didn't see it was relevant to what you were saying. Your husband trashed his own house, too, from what you wrote. He wasn't just some friend who you'd given your spare set of keys to.




Are you saying your husband broke covenant by getting angry at you, yelling at you, etc.?

When we get married, we usually go say some words in front of a preacher, priest, judge, etc. That's a western custom, not something God revealed everyone had to do to get married. Some cultures jump brooms or give bride prices or exchange dowries to cut the covenant.

Let's say a couple writes their own wedding vows. The groom (either because he doesn't put much weight on keeping his word or because he's just plain foolish) promises to put a fresh-cut rose on his wife' pillow every morning. The bride promises to never criticize her husband.

The groom manages to get a rose every day for a year, but on the 366th day, he has a cold and oversleeps and doesn't do it. His wife criticizes him, because she wants her rose and she wants it now. Does each of them have grounds for divorce because they both broke covenant?

What does what God wants have to do with this? Their stupid promises are something they made in addition to getting married. God sets the rules for marriage and we follow them. If we violate each other's rules, that doesn't mean we are free to divorce according to God's.

It's just like couples who get married and then decide to have an 'open marriage' and be swingers. They can say it's not 'cheating' because they both agree to it. But it's still adultery. They can't make it not adultery by agreeing on it.



The marriage covenant is beautifully described in Ephesians 5. There are two parties and their roles are pretty well laid out. So, if one breaks the covenant, why should the other be held to it?

Now...I would like direct answers to these questions, no dancing around.

[/QUOTE]

Letting the thread run down...IOW, you can't continue to defend your statements.

Regarding God's rules for marriage...have you read the part about "husbands love your wives as Christ loves the church"? Where in that statement does it give an out for domestic violence perpetrated by the husband towards the wife?

Once again, you cannot defend your beliefs against the direct questions...your example of the rose thing was deflection...

 

[Hetta]

Let's say a couple writes their own wedding vows. The groom (either because he doesn't put much weight on keeping his word or because he's just plain foolish) promises to put a fresh-cut rose on his wife' pillow every morning. The bride promises to never criticize her husband.

The groom manages to get a rose every day for a year, but on the 366th day, he has a cold and oversleeps and doesn't do it. His wife criticizes him, because she wants her rose and she wants it now.

I don't think you even notice how your stories are prejudiced against women.

The man didn't get the rose because he overslept because he was sick
The woman is selfish and wants her rose now - regardless of her husband being sick

IRL, those situations rarely happen because men are not all good and women are not all bad. As we're all human and fallen, we are all prone to selfish and unkind moments, regardless of gender.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

I don't think you even notice how your stories are prejudiced against women.

The man didn't get the rose because he overslept because he was sick
The woman is selfish and wants her rose now - regardless of her husband being sick

IRL, those situations rarely happen because men are not all good and women are not all bad. As we're all human and fallen, we are all prone to selfish and unkind moments, regardless of gender.

Yup...and that's why I should "respect" and "reverence" my husband even after what he did...because man. I'm sure in his heart of hearts, he is convinced that I did something to bring the abuse upon myself...seeing as how I'm not a "submissive" wife...

 

[DZoolander]

What you guys ought to do is pose a hypothetical back to him.

Something like...

Say you met a man who told you he wanted to leave his wife... They'd been married for years - and apparently she had a penchant for giving [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] to random men. Every week or two she'd come home with evidence of her indiscretion on her clothing, etc...

Finally, after years of this, the man had enough. They'd fought over it - he'd given her chance after chance - but she was not contrite and would not stop. He'd always been loving to her, provided for her and treated her like a queen. She simply had a personality defect that caused this.

He'd had enough - and was at the very least was going to separate - but most likely was going to file for divorce.

Would you tell the man he was not acting as Christ would toward His church? Would you tell him that he was not being forgiving enough?

 

[RedPonyDriver]

He won't answer...he wants the thread to die out...

 

[Hetta]

I don't like making up prejudiced stories though. It is my experience - and this is based also upon scripture which says that we are all equally sinful - that both men and women/husbands and wives can be selfish, greedy, corrupt, dishonest, and plain evil. Neither men nor women are more disposed to evil. It's all equal. Anyone who wants to argue that one sex or the other is more or less disposed to evil had better have some scripture to back it up.

 

[LinkH]

What you guys ought to do is pose a hypothetical back to him.

Something like...

Say you met a man who told you he wanted to leave his wife... They'd been married for years - and apparently she had a penchant for giving [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] to random men. Every week or two she'd come home with evidence of her indiscretion on her clothing, etc...

Finally, after years of this, the man had enough. They'd fought over it - he'd given her chance after chance - but she was not contrite and would not stop. He'd always been loving to her, provided for her and treated her like a queen. She simply had a personality defect that caused this.

He'd had enough - and was at the very least was going to separate - but most likely was going to file for divorce.

Would you tell the man he was not acting as Christ would toward His church? Would you tell him that he was not being forgiving enough?

I'd say some people you can love from afar.

But we are to love our neighbors and even our enemies. I wouldn't say don't love.

 

[LinkH]

I don't think you even notice how your stories are prejudiced against women.

The man didn't get the rose because he overslept because he was sick
The woman is selfish and wants her rose now - regardless of her husband being sick

I was going to have the husband just decide not to give the rose because he realized it was a stupid promise, but I already had him doing wrong by making the stupid promise he couldn't keep in the first place, even in the wedding ceremony. If the wife isn't upset, she doesn't have any motivation to come on this forum so some of the sistas can give her permission to get a divorce. Characters in a story need motivation, you know. How about this? You can re-write the story where the man decides just not to give the rose and the wife doesn't complain.

 

[Hetta]

I was going to have the husband just decide not to give the rose because he realized it was a stupid promise, but I already had him doing wrong by making the stupid promise he couldn't keep in the first place, even in the wedding ceremony. How about this? You can re-write the story where the man decides just not to give the rose and the wife doesn't complain.

I have no desire to re-write. I would rather have some real life/relevant example other than all of these 'harpy' wives and men who have to chase their wife around with a chainsaw for them to be a dangerous spouse.

 

[LinkH]

I don't like making up prejudiced stories though. It is my experience - and this is based also upon scripture which says that we are all equally sinful - that both men and women/husbands and wives can be selfish, greedy, corrupt, dishonest, and plain evil. Neither men nor women are more disposed to evil. It's all equal. Anyone who wants to argue that one sex or the other is more or less disposed to evil had better have some scripture to back it up.

The only verse that comes to mind is Eccclesiastes 7

28 while I was still searching
but not finding—
I found one upright man among a thousand,
but not one upright woman among them all.
(NIV)

The NIV may be taking liberties by inserting 'upright' in there. I don't know. Other translations don't make as clear of a statement.

But the same passage says,
"20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not." (KJV)

Of course, the NIV uses gender-neutral language for that one.

Men and women are both sinners. But the Bible doesn't teach the cultural myth that men are bad and women are good.

 

[Hetta]

Men and women are both sinners. But the Bible doesn't teach the cultural myth that men are bad and women are good.

And nor did I. Anywhere. Even once. In fact I specifically wrote that men and women are both prone to wrongdoing.

 

[LinkH]

And nor did I. Anywhere. Even once. In fact I specifically wrote that men and women are both prone to wrongdoing.

I didn't mean to imply that you did. A usual, when I post something, I mean what I say. I'm not usually trying to imply something about someone else.

 

[mkgal1]

I'd say some people you can love from afar.

But we are to love our neighbors and even our enemies. I wouldn't say don't love.

So who are you arguing against, then? Because no one has said "don't love" or "don't respect". There have been many posts about the different levels of love/respect (from the level of "you are at least a human being--worthy of being alive on this earth" all the way to admiration of character and deep loyalty).

And.....why all the "admonition" to RPD?

 

[RedPonyDriver]

So who are you arguing against, then? Because no one has said "don't love" or "don't respect". There have been many posts about the different levels of love/respect (from the level of "you are at least a human being--worthy of being alive on this earth" all the way to admiration of character and deep loyalty).

I have a feeling what he's arguing for (at least in my case) is that I should "respect" and "reverence" my husband because husband. That's a oh heck no deal. Respect him because he's a human being (like not running him over with my car, backing up and running over him again) sure. However, there is a whole different level there. I can respect that he is a person with certain intrinsic worth...but I can't respect him as a husband right now...that got broken...

 

[LinkH]

I have a feeling what he's arguing for (at least in my case) is that I should "respect" and "reverence" my husband because husband. That's a oh heck no deal.

I've stated my position directly to you about that earlier in the thread, without just hinting around.

Respect him because he's a human being (like not running him over with my car, backing up and running over him again) sure.

That's a little bit scary.

 

[ValleyGal]

I can respect that he is a person with certain intrinsic worth...but I can't respect him as a husband right now...that got broken...

That, imo, is the heart of the issue. God so loved the world in a very general sense, and people should have respect for others and this can be shown by not running them over, stealing from them, etc.

With this basic and general love and respect, people in close relationship have different types of both love and respect. Love - there is brotherly love we have for the BoC, there is the love we have with our closest friends, there is familial love for parents and children, there is romantic love between spouses. Imo, when Paul was speaking to the men in Ephesians, he was likely reminding them that the love men have for their wives is not "only" romantic, but also includes the general and basic love of Christ. And imo, he was likely reminding the women in Ephesians that women should not only have a general respect for their husbands as brothers in Christ, but have a little extra measure of it specifically because of the spousal relationship. However, he does not say it is unconditional. In other areas of the Bible, Paul says that women should respect "their own" husbands....so this works together with Eph. in that women should respect their husband before or more than they should respect other men, but that does not mean they should respect them without men having to earn it - just as a wife does not have to earn the basic love of Christ, but may have to work to maintain the romantic love a husband has for her (ie, give him a reason to want to come home rather than escape by being a workaholic, etc.).

.....I was going to leave this conversation....
oh well.