Lost cause

[Rora47]

My wife feels like a lost cause. We've been married almost a year now, and we knew each other almost 2 years before getting married. The root of the issue comes down to stubbornness, which she believes is "strength". Instead of fighting for our relationship together, it's just me and she fights me. She acknowledges that it's been wrong of her to fight me, but I know within 30 seconds she will be doing it again. Whenever she admits it, instead of being a moment of forgiveness, healing, and relief, it brings pain because I know I am only forgiving her so that she can wrong me the next moment without actually repenting from the issue for good.

This is only one of many destructive behaviors she repeats, apologizes for, and repeats over and over again. Our relationship is like a sand-castle... I build it up, she knocks it down. I know what you're thinking... "build on the rock". That is the problem--I am, she simply refuses to believe that, though, and thinks that her tearing down of me and our marriage is a favor to God somehow because if it is possible for her to do (and it is, because as my wife she has inherited a position of great trust in my life) that means that it was "on the sand" anyways and warrants destruction. So she is in a constant cycle of reinforcing to herself whether or not I am legitimate based on a very unhealthy and misguided background of right and wrong. I confront her false convictions, and she takes that as a sign that I 'don't understand'. There is no vulnerability from this woman.

What's actually happening is that she is slowly eroding me. She is the wife who causes shame and "rottenness in my bones". My life is, more or less, Proverbs 12:4b. It's all I can do but keep trying and continue rotting away. It's a very painful process. It seems inevitable that I will be either fighting my entire lifetime, or give up and die emotionally.

 

[Audiomechanic]

Just so I understanf correctly, it sounds like you're saying your wife is intentionally and continuously "testing" the strength of you and your marriage to make sure it is "built upon a rock" by fighting you. And she is continuously determining that if she can effect you with her "testing," then your marriage is not "built upon a rock" by her standards. Am I on target here?

If this is the case, this is some pretty insane behavior. "Testing" your marriage is not her job or responsibility. Assisting you to build it up is her responsibility and job. Perhaps you both can meet with your pastor?

 

[Hetta]

Perhaps some examples of what is going on would help. It does sound as though you have also given up and do not like her very much - calling her a "lost cause" and thinking of her that way would not be very helpful to your marriage.

 

[SharonL]

My son has been with his wife over 20 years and this is the relationship he endures. You have to become strong within yourself and not build your strength on what she thinks of you. My DIL's problems comes from her upbringing. Constant criticism, never doing a good job,. She thinks this is normal. My son gets beat down with it sometimes, but he has learned to build his strength upon his accomplishments.

He is a custom knife maker and my DIL makes the sheaths - the business always reflected on my son, the web page just listed the name of the company and she was not mentioned. I build the web page for him and I made some changes and added her name to everything and built up what she does in the company. People started complimenting her part of the business. She is slowly changing. I have not seen much of the attack behavior in the past year.

Look at the source of her upbringing and see if this is the root of it. Anytime someone tears another person down, there is guilt or a lack of achievement on their own part. When things are good, they are good, but when they turn bad, they are very bad. It takes a very strong person to deal with this day in and day out. I was raised that way and I understand how it hurts. Strange that I went in the opposite direction - I will not criticize anyone.

Do you include her in all your decisions, or maybe let her make the final decision, so if it does not work, she cannot blame you. Blame is all they know to do because they were probably raised that way. Give her credit, build her up, build her confidence. Pick your fights - everything is not worthy of a fight - sometimes walking away speaks louder than words.

 

[ChristianGolfer]

Perhaps some examples of what is going on would help. It does sound as though you have also given up and do not like her very much - calling her a "lost cause" and thinking of her that way would not be very helpful to your marriage.

Seconded. We need more info if we're to be any help.

Give us some examples of what she's being stubborn about. Give us examples of her "tearing down."

 

[ValleyGal]

Here is a link to background information that might help:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7727841/

 

[Audiomechanic]

In light of this:

Here is a link to background information that might help:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7727841/

This is even more pertinent:

Look at the source of her upbringing and see if this is the root of it. Anytime someone tears another person down, there is guilt or a lack of achievement on their own part. When things are good, they are good, but when they turn bad, they are very bad. It takes a very strong person to deal with this day in and day out. I was raised that way and I understand how it hurts. Strange that I went in the opposite direction - I will not criticize anyone.

This behavior is likely learned from somewhere. And hopefully it is not, or wont develop into NPD, else God help you.

 

[Puffinstuff]

I read your back story from previous posts.I think you view your problem as mostly how she communicates or lack there of with you .Im just a 3rd party reading "into" what you are describing and I think one of your main issues is you want something that she doesn't.You say you just want an honest discussion about it I get the feeling she thinks you want a certain end result answer out of her and she isn't willing to give that answer and she is too afraid to just say it point blank.I think she is against you joining the military .She has never agreed to it or not agreed to it.You have gone as far as calling it a "calling from God" I'm sure if she is against it she would avoid telling you that.

I agree with VG (Valley Girl) who advised you to say you are doing it and unless she speaks up otherwise you consider her silence a "blessing".But be prepared she may at that point say you do not have her blessings.Then the ball will be in your court to go against her blessings and do it anyway or accept her "answer" and not join with no resentment.You are putting a high value on her opinion and her backing you up which is honorable.But not if she doesn't agree and you resent it.(no saying you would but that is a consideration ) .You went along with moving to Canada with no discussion and it seems you already resent that.

 

[Hetta]

I read your back story from previous posts.I think you view your problem as mostly how she communicates or lack there of with you .Im just a 3rd party reading "into" what you are describing and I think one of your main issues is you want something that she doesn't.You say you just want an honest discussion about it I get the feeling she thinks you want a certain end result answer out of her and she isn't willing to give that answer and she is too afraid to just say it point blank.I think she is against you joining the military .She has never agreed to it or not agreed to it.You have gone as far as calling it a "calling from God" I'm sure if she is against it she would avoid telling you that.

I agree with VG (Valley Girl) who advised you to say you are doing it and unless she speaks up otherwise you consider her silence a "blessing".But be prepared she may at that point say you do not have her blessings.Then the ball will be in your court to go against her blessings and do it anyway or accept her "answer" and not join with no resentment.You are putting a high value on her opinion and her backing you up which is honorable.But not if she doesn't agree and you resent it.(no saying you would but that is a consideration ) .You went along with moving to Canada with no discussion and it seems you already resent that.

I agree with this. The other post I read was all about him and what he wants, and the fact that she doesn't agree. Well, hello? That's when you have to reach some kind of comproimise.

 

[Puffinstuff]

Another angle too.You are in a sense putting a huge burden on her by saying you know (without a doubt) joining the military is a God calling.Where you belong.But then more or less placing the decision in your wife's lap.But not only that you want her to be happy about it even if she isn't.I think her refusal to even discuss it could be multi faceted.She doesn't want you to and wont be happy about it .But she isn't going to tell you to go against what you feel you are called to do.And I cant say I blame her.

You are putting too much on her shoulders.She avoids it.

 

[Puffinstuff]

I agree with this. The other post I read was all about him and what he wants, and the fact that she doesn't agree. Well, hello? That's when you have to reach some kind of comproimise.

The problem is she avoids discussing it.But her silence and non encouragement to do it is her answer IMHO.She doesn't want it but she isn't going to tell him not to.

 

[ValleyGal]

Perhaps some examples of what is going on ... calling her a "lost cause" and thinking of her that way would not be very helpful to your marriage.

So as not to bring up just the one issue on the other thread, it might be helpful to provide more examples of what's going on. Maybe some recent examples.

Also, I would suggest reading The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work by Dr. John Gottman and Nan Silver. It sounds to me like you are framing things in a really negative construct, and that is very dangerous to the marriage. I would suggest finding a marriage counsellor or therapist. It seems like the marriage is going downhill fast, and if you want to save it, now is the time. Imo.

 

[Puffinstuff]

So as not to bring up just the one issue on the other thread, it might be helpful to provide more examples of what's going on. Maybe some recent examples.

Also, I would suggest reading The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work by Dr. John Gottman and Nan Silver. It sounds to me like you are framing things in a really negative construct, and that is very dangerous to the marriage. I would suggest finding a marriage counsellor or therapist. It seems like the marriage is going downhill fast, and if you want to save it, now is the time. Imo.

Yes.Is it the seven horsemen? Contempt is the end of it.Not saying it can't be helped but by that point its like climbing out of a deep pit.I see stonewalling going on as well.I think its beyond her just having communication problems.Pent up anger and resentments have taken residence.Explosive exibitions of anger.....and all of it.

These guys only married a couple of years too.

 

[Puffinstuff]

[QUOTESo as not to bring up just the one issue on the other thread, it might be helpful to provide more examples of what's going on. Maybe some recent examples.
][/QUOTE]

Agreed but I think that is a huge one .To him anyway.He's speaking of a calling.

 

[Rora47]

No it's not a matter of me joining the military. For now, that is not going to happen. In retrospect, aside from feeling like a calling, it is also a "solution" to my problems with her... I am a very strong person but I can only take so much of this, and without a solid support structure like what I could get in the military I don't know how I would endure more.

For the time being we are planning for me to pursue a career as a mechanic in Canada. That means more isolation and basically open season for her. The only person in her family who is even remotely objective is her sister, I think because over time she has come to see a pattern in her sister's (my wife) behavior. At least she has been willing to say she is controlling. If I do, it falls on deaf ears and is pointless.

I've heard about the "4 horsemen" of divorce... we have at least 2 or 3 and I've been fighting them alone. She says she wants to be a marriage counselor, but in our own marriage she doesn't fight the issues... in fact, it seems like as soon as one rides by, she jumps up on the horse with them. I can't make any sense of her behavior because her behaviors contradict her beliefs, languages, etc.

Yes.Is it the seven horsemen? Contempt is the end of it.Not saying it can't be helped but by that point its like climbing out of a deep pit.I see stonewalling going on as well.I think its beyond her just having communication problems.Pent up anger and resentments have taken residence.Explosive exibitions of anger.....and all of it.

These guys only married a couple of years too.

Yes, all of that is true.

Do you include her in all your decisions, or maybe let her make the final decision, so if it does not work, she cannot blame you. Blame is all they know to do because they were probably raised that way. Give her credit, build her up, build her confidence. Pick your fights - everything is not worthy of a fight - sometimes walking away speaks louder than words.

Yes, from the very beginning I made sure she would be included, hence the back story VG linked to. When we first met she would blame/badmouth me to her family so I think that is where the behavior comes from. I did my best to compliment her good traits... now she uses that as ammunition any time we disagree "remember you said". She finds examples of other people doing things she thinks I should do, then builds an emotional legal case, starring me as the villain. I mean, it's the whole 9 yards.

 

[Hetta]

No it's not a matter of me joining the military. For now, that is not going to happen. In retrospect, aside from feeling like a calling, it is also a "solution" to my problems with her... I am a very strong person but I can only take so much of this, and without a solid support structure like what I could get in the military I don't know how I would endure more.

I thought you said you decided on a miltary career before you met her? Trust me, you don't want to deal with your marriage by running out on it. If your marriage is in trouble now, it will be twice the trouble if you were in the military.

For the time being, I will be pursuing a career as a mechanic in Canada. That means more isolation and basically open season for her. The only person in her family who is even remotely objective is her sister, I think because over time she has come to see a pattern in her sister's (my wife) behavior. At least she has been willing to say she is controlling. If I do, it falls on deaf ears and is pointless.

Yes, from the very beginning I made sure she would be included, hence the back story VG linked to. When we first met she would blame/badmouth me to her family so I think that is where the behavior comes from. I did my best to compliment her good traits... now she uses that as ammunition any time we disagree "remember you said". She finds examples of other people doing things she thinks I should do, then builds an emotional legal case, starring me as the villain. I mean, it's the whole 9 yards.

You sound as though you hate her. Do you think she doesn't notice this?

Have you tried counseling?

 

[Rora47]

I thought you said you decided on a miltary career before you met her? Trust me, you don't want to deal with your marriage by running out on it. If your marriage is in trouble now, it will be twice the trouble if you were in the military.

You sound as though you hate her. Do you think she doesn't notice this?

Have you tried counseling?

I have reached the same conclusion which is why I've decided not to enlist. Having the support structure of the military would only help me in the current context of her vs. me, in a way I'd only be accepting this is normal when what I really want is a better marriage.

I don't hate her. I love her. I even could say I still like her. I've tried really, really hard not to let my personal feelings get beaten down by what's going on. Hate the sin, not the sinner (I am too obviously).

We haven't tried counseling, but I plan to do it as soon as we're able to go regularly. I'm in over my head as far as what to do.

 

[ValleyGal]

Has she been accepted into a MFT program yet? If so, this would be an excellent resource for both of you....they will not graduate her unless she has demonstrated sound marriage qualities - especially if it is in the context of Christian MFT. If she has not been accepted yet, chances are she will not be accepted - unless she manipulates the process.

Anyway, that does not help with the here and now. One thing I would really caution against is isolation. Broaden your world so that it extends further or differently than her world. There is nothing saying you should not have your own friends and support community apart from her. You need a group of buddies you can turn to for prayer, for hanging out with, for talking about personal issues. Men need their buddies, even if they don't like to admit it.

Until you are able to afford a marriage counsellor or therapist, you might want to try the Love Dare. It suggests a different thing to do every day, but I would say just a few times a week is likely enough. Another option is to talk to your pastor or even find a marriage coach who will work on a sliding scale or pay-it-forward basis. I'm just so sorry, but it sounds like you both really need a professional here.

Have you ever asked your wife if a couple like you comes in to see her as a MFT, how would she counsel them? Might be interesting to see what she says.

 

[Rora47]

Has she been accepted into a MFT program yet? If so, this would be an excellent resource for both of you....they will not graduate her unless she has demonstrated sound marriage qualities - especially if it is in the context of Christian MFT. If she has not been accepted yet, chances are she will not be accepted - unless she manipulates the process.

Anyway, that does not help with the here and now. One thing I would really caution against is isolation. Broaden your world so that it extends further or differently than her world. There is nothing saying you should not have your own friends and support community apart from her. You need a group of buddies you can turn to for prayer, for hanging out with, for talking about personal issues. Men need their buddies, even if they don't like to admit it.

Until you are able to afford a marriage counsellor or therapist, you might want to try the Love Dare. It suggests a different thing to do every day, but I would say just a few times a week is likely enough. Another option is to talk to your pastor or even find a marriage coach who will work on a sliding scale or pay-it-forward basis. I'm just so sorry, but it sounds like you both really need a professional here.

Have you ever asked your wife if a couple like you comes in to see her as a MFT, how would she counsel them? Might be interesting to see what she says.

Actually, that's one of the ways I'm able to get through to her and help her see it from an outside perspective. I also considered that MFT would give me some help, but I felt manipulative too for even thinking of it that way. I guess it's good that she wouldn't end up in that career unless she was meant to.

I think you're right, though. First and foremost we need professional help, I need a wider support group, and a MFT program would put an end to some of the negative influences from her past one way or another. Between these 3 things I think things will improve. Thank you.

 

[Puffinstuff]

You need a group of buddies you can turn to for prayer, for hanging out with, for talking about personal issues. Men need their buddies, even if they don't like to admit it.

Men do.