Losing the fear of an eternal hell

[Scott Lary]

[QUOTE
Most Christians probably believe that Hitler would be spared his X-suffering if he had become a Christian before he died but this would not have actually paid his debt off. Can we ever really make full amends for the damage we do to one another?
[/QUOTE]

So let's for the sake of this thought experiment posit that one can be redeemed after death. I keep seeing posts suggesting that if someone like Hitler served 1,000,000,000 years in hell, then he would have served his time and would be automatically redeemed. Doesn't salvation involve more than punishment? Hitler would not only have to pay for his sins, but be Saved in his heart. Am I wrong here?

 

[WintersDust]

Well hold on, all of you, with this 'Gehenna' and 'Sheol' and everything else theory - I think, arguably - and I'm prepared to be yelled at for this - we're getting the Basic Bible Story wrong. (This is not a goad, it's an Honest Opinion. Mine.)

When Azrael got kicked out of Heaven, he fell to Earth and stayed there. Now if you accept the Devil rules in Hell (whatever name you use, I'm sticking with 'Hell' for this to include 'Gehenna', 'Sheol' and all the other names for ease sake!) then Azrael rules on Earth, which is why you have temptation. So Earth is, literally, Hell. The phrase 'Hell on Earth' is literally correct.

Now the only way to get from Hell to Heaven is through Jesus Christ. But that's not straightforward, as God only wants 144,000 people in Heaven (that's what the Bible says, folks!) As the guy above says, the Bible is rooted in Judaism. It is. Twelve tribes of Jews. Twelve thousand from each tribe. That's got the 144,000 sorted. The rest of us? Ashes to ashes..... So unless you're Jewish and part of the right tribes, you've got zero chance of getting there anyway. That's what the Bible says.

As far as Jesus' love goes, don't go overboard on that one either. Have a look at Revelations. Jesus leads the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse AND he chucks the Seven Bowls at us, the second of which empties the seas of life (and the other 6 aren't exactly loving cups either!) Jesus holds the keys to Heaven AND Hell, it says that in Revelations too. Why is Hell thought of as a place of fire and torment? Because the area of Heaven Azreal came from happened to be volcanic. That's the only reason.

God's love? Iffy. In the Old Testament, one of 'em kills 2,038,344. The other one kills 10. Loving God has the smaller total, right? Wrong. He's the BEEG number! I suppose as He created us, He's allowed to kill us. But He also allows a little rape (Judges) hates disabled people like me (Leviticus, amongst other places) and encourages bloodshed and war (Genesis 15:16 for starters!)

Also, I don't get this 'Jesus is God's ONLY Begotten Son' business. Jesus had brothers. (Mark 6). He also had 2 sisters but, the Bible being a tad chauvenistic, only His Brothers' names are recorded.

So I've never understood this 'Love Jesus and you'll Go to Heaven' business. That's NOT what the Bible says (unless you're part of the right Jewish tribes). However, to fill churches, that IS what the Preachers say! Preachers of all faiths paraphrase their books to make their belief's messages more tolerable to those they're aimed at, to fill their places of worship (and collection plates!) We're NOT as bad as those who preach the Koran (where it says men and women are equal but try telling an Arab husband that!) but we still do it!

Nope, I'm not trying to be goading. It's just I love the Bible (the KJV, not the other versions) and have read most of it and it annoys me a TAD when people quote the preachers' version, not what it ACTUALLY says!

Prove me wrong, folks!

Yours respectfully

Chris.

What's curious is that after Satan led a rebellion against God in Heaven, a sin, he was let to live. He and his rebel angels.

Then he was cast down to earth where God made him lord.

Now, cast to earth,condemned by God, he re-enters Heaven and confers with God about Job's degree of faithfulness.
And God makes a wager on that.

He allows Satan to test Job's faith commitment however he chooses save for one caviat. Satan cannot kill Job.

I always find it odd that Satan's destiny is set. Yet God confers with him and let's him be lord on earth to vex humans.

 

[didactics]

In my view a line segment consists of only two vector points, a beginning and an end. The line simply connects to two vector points. And since the line segment has a beginning and an end, it is not infinite.

But perhaps your line segment is raster based rather than vector based. - LOL

Line segments aside, how about we simply put it this way: hell is everlasting is because sin against an infinite, eternal being—God Himself—requires an infinite, eternal punishment. Those who have not trusted Christ have not had their sins paid for, and so must pay this infinite, eternal debt of punishment themselves.
Universalism and Hell | Ligonier Ministries

Also @public hermit if you don't mind I would love for you to consider listening to this transcript (8 min) in the link above some time, and let me know what you think.

 

[public hermit]

Line segments aside, how about we simply put it this way: hell is everlasting is because sin against an infinite, eternal being—God Himself—requires an infinite, eternal punishment. Those who have not trusted Christ have not had their sins paid for, and so must pay this infinite, eternal debt of punishment themselves.
Universalism and Hell | Ligonier Ministries

Also @public hermit if you don't mind I would love for you to consider listening to this transcript (8 min) in the link above some time, and let me know what you think.

I appreciate the assumption that I could pay that much attention. Thank you. Could you give me some premises and a conclusion? I'm simple like that, and promise to give them my full attention.

 

[didactics]

I appreciate the assumption that I could pay that much attention. Thank you. Could you give me some premises and a conclusion? I'm simple like that, and promise to give them my full attention.

I could probably give the article some thought myself. It mentions a book that would help me form better arguments on the subject myself, like The Death of Death in the Death of Christ by John Owen.

It mentions: in 553 at the Second Council of Constantinople, the church denounced as heretical the belief that all beings, even Satan himself, would eventually be saved. (interesting fun fact)

This sounds pretty sobering: Now it’s important to recognize when thinking about all this that hell is a case of “having it our way.” Romans chapter 1 makes it clear that God’s judgment involves “giving people over” to what they want. When people repeatedly reject God and demand that they be left to do as they see fit, there comes a time where God “gives them over” to that. In that sense, hell is something freely chosen. And this is one reason why hell is everlasting. Because it is the place where people become, finally and forever, what they have always been intent on becoming.

Here is the conclusion: Remember the minefield. What must I do to get across here safely? The jailer in Acts chapter 16 asked a very similar question: “What must I do to be saved?”

And the answer, given by the Apostle Paul, was very straightforward: “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.”

 

[David Lowery]

So don't be afraid that God is going to torment or throw us in a literal lake of fire. He's not that sort of guy. He is as He is in Jesus so we can confidently throw such fears away.

Not sure how that would be a question for someone in Christ. There is a scripture about relaxing one of these commandments being called least in the kingdom.

Something I have learned recently is this: May all men be made false and only Him true, for there is no truth, no Word within any us without Him being present. At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what I think, I give this up to Him because I know He likes to trade; our knowledge for His, our understanding for His, our iniquity for His righteousness. So in this manner I seek instead what is in His heart and not my own to add to myself His heart. How? The Word is Spirit and Life. One simply abides in Him, as He abides in the Father and therefore abides in His word, for He is the word.

It is written:
For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. (Matthew 12:40)

There were two sides to Hades, (Sheol the grave). Abraham's Bosum and the other side, a place of torment, Gehenna. He took the keys to both death and Hades and set free the captives that were waiting for Him.

Jesus did preach Hell 11 times, here are two:
And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell. (Matthew 5:30)
But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him! (Luke 12:5)

Revelation 14:11 also speaks to those that take the mark.

There is also a place called the bottomless pit. In the story of the man with a spirit named Legion, they requested of Jesus to not be sent to that place (Luke 8:31). One might ask, why? Because there is no coming out from that place. Some would argue that its not possible to come from the grave and I would refer them to 1 Samuel 28:11-25. Also, in Revelation 9, an angel is sent to unlock this place and an army is released. Later Satan is imprisoned there for 1000 years.

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

The Lake of Fire is not Hades, Hades is thrown into the lake of fire so it is separate. Hades has an end appointed for it. This is where one is put to death a second time. Look to see who are instantly judged, we see that both the beast and the false prophet are sent directly there in Revelation 19:20. There is no Hell assigned to them and this fulfills the prophecy spoken of Him, he was and is not and is to come. Understanding of this verse comes with Genesis 1:1. The three presented here is connected to both Jesus and the beast. Jesus was, is and is to come. The beast was, is not and is to come. Now pair them together with Genesis 1:1, for Jesus: He was in the beginning, He is in the heavens, and is to come to the earth. And unto the beast, He was in the beginning, He is not in the heavens, and is to come to the earth. Keep in mind, the beast comes from the bottomless pit and will not be at judgement, thus is not in the heavens.

Hope this helps.

 

[shepherdsword]

Sorry to laugh. You may have been serious.

Welcome to the forum.

Perhaps I should ask you what your definition of "heresy" is?

The technical meaning for heresy is a sect or division, something that false doctrines invariably produce. However, the term has evolved into a vernacular meaning for a teaching that can produce damnation if followed. How does this apply to universalism? It really doesn't apply if one is a true believer and has been deluded by it. That is, unless he teaches it to those whose application results in them rejecting Christ because, well. why not? We will all be ultimately saved anyway. In that case it is a very dangerous heresy indeed. Following it can result in damnation for some.

 

[Hmm]

You might enjoy this article.

Chapter 18 – Jesus Christ did not Teach or Believe in Hell
Misunderstood and Mistranslated Words of Jesus

Thanks for the recommendation. The whole book looks worth a read.

 

[Hmm]

The technical meaning for heresy is a sect or division, something that false doctrines invariably produce. However, the term has evolved into a vernacular meaning for a teaching that can produce damnation if followed. How does this apply to universalism? It really doesn't apply if one is a true believer and has been deluded by it. That is, unless he teaches it to those whose application results in them rejecting Christ because, well. why not? We will all be ultimately saved anyway. In that case it is a very dangerous heresy indeed. Following it can result in damnation for some.

This demonstrates that you simply fail to understand what Christian universalism actually says. I also doubt you are aware of it's history in the Early Church.

 

[shepherdsword]

This demonstrates that you simply fail to understand what Christian universalism actually says.

Oh please explain it to me oh great teacher! However, I stand in doubt you will do so. You never quote any scripture to back your position. if you did so they could be challenged. You just present an ethereal opinion that can't really be challenged for lack of substance.

I also doubt you are aware of it's history in the Early Church.

And I doubt you have even have the most infantile grasp of the scriptures or church history. But then ,that's just my opinion.

 

[Hmm]

What's curious is that after Satan led a rebellion against God in Heaven, a sin, he was let to live. He and his rebel angels.

Then he was cast down to earth where God made him lord.

Now, cast to earth,condemned by God, he re-enters Heaven and confers with God about Job's degree of faithfulness.
And God makes a wager on that.

He allows Satan to test Job's faith commitment however he chooses save for one caviat. Satan cannot kill Job.

I always find it odd that Satan's destiny is set. Yet God confers with him and let's him be lord on earth to vex humans.

It seems in this story that Satan did exactly what God told him to do, and was more like a court prosecutor than an enemy. I like the view anyway that he's a kind of anthropomorphic personification of our guilt before God rather than an actual person, and so the question of whether he will be saved or not doesn't really apply.

 

[Hmm]

Oh please explain it to me oh great teacher! However, I stand in doubt you will do so.

And you are correct.

 

[Hmm]

So let's for the sake of this thought experiment posit that one can be redeemed after death. I keep seeing posts suggesting that if someone like Hitler served 1,000,000,000 years in hell, then he would have served his time and would be automatically redeemed. Doesn't salvation involve more than punishment? Hitler would not only have to pay for his sins, but be Saved in his heart. Am I wrong here?

No, I think you're right. It's not that Hitler will be automatically redeemed. That is a strawman argument made against universalism. Universalism is Christo-centric like every other great tradition in Christianity and says that belief is required to be saved. But because of verses such as 2 Phillipians 2:9-11 below, it believes that eventually, everyone will sincerely believe, and therefore everyone will be saved.

Therefore God exalted him even more highly
and gave him the name
that is above every other name,
10 so that at the name given to Jesus
every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

 

[Saint Steven]

I ask this in genuine ignorance: Was Satan created in God's image by God? Is he a god like God? Does He enjoy God's omnipotence?

Welcome to the forum, Scott. Good to see so many newbies on this topic.

As I understand it, the angels were a part of God's creation. Satan and all the fallen angels would then be part of that creation. I'm interested to hear other views.

... Anyway, eternity is a long time and the least of my concerns is if Satan is redeemed, and I don't think it is really relevant to the rest of us. If he is redeemable, I hope he is.

Here's how I view the redemption of Satan.

Consider the work of God in our own lives. Jesus taught us that love for our enemies is godly behavior. Scripture below.

This is one reason I can't accept the idea of an eternal hell, or any hell at all, for that matter. If you love someone, you don't incinerate them. These is easy enough to grasp, unless you are at church learning about hell. Which leads to cognitive dissonance, and a double standard. If God expects us to love our enemies, what should he do with his.

That being said, if we consider Satan to be God's biggest enemy, what should we expect?

To me personally, God redeeming Satan would be the crowning achievement of his love and mercy. Since all of creation will be restored, how could this be left undone, incomplete?

Yes, Satan is an enemy. But what is God's will for enemies? That we love them.

Matthew 5:43-48 NIV
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

[Saint Steven]

Prove me wrong, folks!

He comes in with guns a blazin'.

Welcome to the forum, Chris.

 

[shepherdsword]

No, I think you're right. It's not that Hitler will be automatically redeemed. That is a strawman argument made against universalism. Universalism is Christo-centric like every other great tradition in Christianity and says that belief is required to be saved. But because of verses such as 2 Phillipians 2:9-11 below, it believes that eventually, everyone will sincerely believe, and therefore everyone will be saved.

This is just a total convolution of reason and interpretation. It clearly shows that not only do you not know what faith is...you also fail to understand how it works. Devils believe and tremble...but they are not redeemed.

Jas 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

 

[weaponoffreedom]

That's an interesting post! Thank you. I would agree with much. One thing I would disagree on. Jesus talked about everlasting life and everlasting punishment in the same passage. If punishment is for an eon, does that mean life is only for an eon too? God Bless

And in fact, where is "hell"??????? Where did God cast the angels to be bound in chains? Where were they cast? So where the angels were cast, is "hell".

 

[Saint Steven]

Line segments aside, how about we simply put it this way: hell is everlasting is because sin against an infinite, eternal being—God Himself—requires an infinite, eternal punishment. ...

I wonder where this conclusion came from, that "... hell is everlasting [is] because sin against an infinite, eternal being—God Himself—requires an infinite, eternal punishment." Appears to be an apologetic designed to absolve God of hell. Blame the victim mentality. It certainly taints what anyone would call justice.

... Those who have not trusted Christ have not had their sins paid for, and so must pay this infinite, eternal debt of punishment themselves.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[Saint Steven]

There is a scripture about relaxing one of these commandments being called least in the kingdom.

Welcome to the forum, David.

Is this what you are referring to? (Matthew 5:19)

The question there is what is Christ referring to as "these commands"?
The Beatitudes he just spoke, the law, or the new commands he gives as he continues?

 

[shepherdsword]

I wonder where this conclusion came from, that "... hell is everlasting

It came from an understanding that eternity is outside space and time, and as such transcends it. It came from the understanding that just as there is eternal life...there is also eternal torment. The same words are used to describe them.