losing salvation

[erythro]

As though that explains everything, and there's nothing more to say except to wait for all to nod in agreement.

I'm glad you find it so obvious, it was not addressing the OP - it was a point within a debate about OSAS (once saved always saved). That particular statement you have picked up on was addressing the point of squint, where he said:

ALL OF ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED, even those who were 'made' enemies of the Gospel.

That it why I said it.


And you did mention Calvinism - I believe:

It is only through God choosing us to have the faith that we may be saved.

I do not mean to dismiss your point, but predestination is a beast of a debate and I'm struggling enough here with OSAS. :o

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=Albion; I think we all are on the same page there...as you've stated your point. BUT we have to come to grips with more than the fact that we escape the consequences of sin through Jesus. How does one come to the faith? Is it a result of his own brainpower and volition? No. It is only through God choosing us to have the faith that we may be saved. That's the indispensible part of the issue that is, nevertheless, often overlooked as people argue that we should repent or have faith.

Yes, and I believe it is overlooked because the very idea of it is so ego shattering as to cause an immediate identity crisis of dare I say, biblical proportions.
People don't realize that their ego is only a part of them and that they are more than the sum of their parts. It's pathtic, really.

 

[Rick Otto]

I do not mean to dismiss your point, but predestination is a beast of a debate and I'm struggling enough here with OSAS. :o

Let "Calvinism" be a label that is much broader than, but includes predestination. The axiomatic facts of omniscience, omnipotence, & omnipresence should make predestination a logical necessity. Random chance cannot exist in that kind of a Creator's creation.

 

[squint]

I'm glad you find it so obvious, it was not addressing the OP - it was a point within a debate about OSAS (once saved always saved). That particular statement you have picked up on was addressing the point of squint, where he said:


That it why I said it.


And you did mention Calvinism - I believe:


I do not mean to dismiss your point, but predestination is a beast of a debate and I'm struggling enough here with OSAS. :o

The conclusions of scripture are that Israel are Gods children, and were taught so in Deut. 14:1 and Psalm 82:6.

IF ANY of them are NOT saved because they, HIS CHILDREN are unrepentant SINNERS that brings two fairly LARGE theological obstacles.

1.) That God does in fact end up burning alive forever (or insert your favorite form of eternal damnation) HIS OWN CHILDREN (which is not presented in the text as it applies to them anywhere)

and even larger

2.) That God is The Father of unrepentant sinners (a theological impossibility)

There really is little wiggle room on this one.

Paul states that ALL OF ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED, even enemies of the Gospel. This OPEN FACT does place a rather LARGE HOLE in many presumed theological positions including both freewillism and common forms of predestination.

enjoy!

squint

 

[erythro]

IF ANY of them are NOT saved because they, HIS CHILDREN are unrepentant SINNERS that brings two fairly LARGE theological obstacles.

1.) That God does in fact end up burning alive forever (or insert your favorite form of eternal damnation) HIS OWN CHILDREN (which is not presented in the text as it applies to them anywhere)

and even larger

2.) That God is The Father of unrepentant sinners (a theological impossibility)

There really is little wiggle room on this one.

The "wiggle" is that they cease to be his children (if that is even the case)

A prime example of this is Saul
As Samuel says (when summoned form the dead):

Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy?

1 Samuel 28:16

God WAS the enemy of one you would call his child.
Its in the Bible

Paul states that ALL OF ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED, even enemies of the Gospel.

squint I addressed this earlier (post #77)- JESUS seems to think the children of Israel are in threat of damnation, so you therefore must have misinterpreted Paul's meaning.

 

[Rick Otto]

Immediate context of Rom 11:26 is right there in vs. 25. When "the fullness of the Gentiles has come in," then "all Israel will be saved." Or, more to the point, "And so all Israel will be saved." The coming in of the fullness or total number of the Gentiles results in "all Israel" being saved.
So again, not that "God redefined Israel", rather the New Testament clarified our understanding of what being "of Israel" means from the NT(grace) perspective.

 

[squint]

The "wiggle" is that they cease to be his children

Nice try. Thee Eternal Father fosters TEMPORARY and INCAPABLE children then? Is this your FINAL answer? Are you willing to smear God in this way? I am not.

A prime example of this is Saul
As Samuel says (when summoned form the dead):

1 Samuel 28:16

God WAS the enemy of one you would call his child.
Its in the Bible

I am not so foolish as to view Saul as ALONE. It is written all over the O.T. that SAUL had AN EVIL SPIRIT put upon him. I have ZERO reason to see SAUL, a CHOSEN CHILD OF GOD to be the same as THAT WHICH COVERED HIS MIND and HEART.

Do you understand the DIFFERENCE?

squint I addressed this earlier (post #77)- JESUS seems to think the children of Israel are in threat of damnation, so you therefore must have misinterpreted Paul's meaning.

And maybe you need to see the lesson of Saul a little closer.

Where THE WORD is SOWN, Satan, an entirely DIFFERENT ENTITY does surely ENTER the hearts of MANKIND. If you WANT or are ABLE to see 'these types' of scriptures they are in the text, cover to cover.

In this light I have NO USE of seeing like A BLIND MAN and not take that FACT into account. Mankind, in short, is NOT ALONE in these matters.

There are other REASONABLE ways to view ETERNAL JUDGMENTS and OTHER PARTIES that by logical necessity must be on the table.

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

The same thing happened to GODS CHILDREN, Israel. Where the WORD was sown, the BLINDER CAME. You simply want to blame ONLY THE BLINDED CAPTIVES.

Jesus did not see in that way. He came to set CAPTIVES free. The only difference we may have is IS HE SUCCESSFUL?

IF God cannot be successful, NO ONE can.

enjoy!

squint

 

[squint]

Immediate context of Rom 11:26 is right there in vs. 25. When "the fullness of the Gentiles has come in," then "all Israel will be saved." Or, more to the point, "And so all Israel will be saved." The coming in of the fullness or total number of the Gentiles results in "all Israel" being saved.
So again, not that "God redefined Israel", rather the New Testament clarified our understanding of what being "of Israel" means from the NT(grace) perspective.

Well Rick, many a fine theological scholar has tried (and failed) to ascribe that saving to some FUTURE Israel, but CONTEXT dictates that the ENEMIES who were so were PAST TENSE "made" enemies by Gods sowing the WORD upon them and the BLINDER blinded them.

These are not some future made enemies. God in the case of Israel saves ALL OF THEM just as Paul openly states and He does so because they are ALL HIS CHILDREN and ALL LOVED for their fathers' sake, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Romans 11:
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

Many cannot believe their own eyes because this does not fit their theological boxes.

enjoy!

squint

 

[erythro]

Let "Calvinism" be a label

In the old testament there are two clear themes whenever it deals with God

One is that God is just
The other is that he is sovereign

There cannot be Just God who makes his children sinners AND THEN CONDEMNS THEM.

 

[squint]

In the old testament there are two clear themes whenever it deals with God

One is that God is just
The other is that he is sovereign

There cannot be Just God who makes his children sinners AND THEN CONDEMNS THEM.

There is not ONE person who has not sinned or has SIN as a present tense power except GOD HIMSELF in the flesh.

Here is WHAT GOD DID and THE REASON He did so:

Romans 11:32
For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

[erythro]

There is not ONE person who has not sinned or has SIN as a present tense power except GOD HIMSELF in the flesh.

Here is WHAT GOD DID and THE REASON He did so:

Romans 11:32
For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Yet Calvinists should not believe this verse, as they would say he does not have mercy on them all, only on those called to faith.
This the principle reason I disagree with that doctrine.

Also, squint, to your earlier point about the salvation of Israel, even paul is concerned about the salvation of Israel PAUL says:

Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved.

Romans 10:1


PAUL was concerned for their salvation
JESUS was concerned for their salvation

Why not YOU - when these men were?

 

[erythro]

I am not so foolish as to view Saul as ALONE. It is written all over the O.T. that SAUL had AN EVIL SPIRIT put upon him. I have ZERO reason to see SAUL, a CHOSEN CHILD OF GOD to be the same as THAT WHICH COVERED HIS MIND and HEART.

Now the Spirit of the LORD had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD tormented him.

1 Samuel 16:14

You are not only removing the responsibility of Saul's sins from him, you are placing them on GOD himself, o you who talks of smearing God!.


You appear to remove the responsibility of man's sin from man and blame it all on Satan.
God:"You've sinned"
Sinner:"It's not my fault that I'm not saved, Satan blinded me!"
God:"OK whatever I'll let you in heaven"
Sinner:"Yay!"
God:"steady on now.."

That god is not a just god, or the God of the bible.

Are you saying God saves ALL?
Not very biblical [a HIDEOUS understatement]

 

[lighthouse_hope]

1 Samuel 16:14

You are not only removing the responsibility of Saul's sins from him, you are placing them on GOD himself, o you who talks of smearing God!.


You appear to remove the responsibility of man's sin from man and blame it all on Satan.
God:"You've sinned"
Sinner:"It's not my fault that I'm not saved, Satan blinded me!"
God:"OK whatever I'll let you in heaven"
Sinner:"Yay!"
God:"steady on now.."

That god is not a just god, or the God of the bible.

Are you saying God saves ALL?
Not very biblical [a HIDEOUS understatement]

Learn to relax or you'll suffer a heart stroke dealing with Theology, young man

 

[squint]

1 Samuel 16:14

You are not only removing the responsibility of Saul's sins from him, you are placing them on GOD himself, o you who talks of smearing God!.

hmmm? Saul's responsibility for another entities influences or capture? How much responsibility does a mouse have over a snake that is eating it?

You appear to remove the responsibility of man's sin from man and blame it all on Satan.

Well, duh. That's what Satan does. Do you think you can stop that by your responsibility? Satan was made to BLIND MINDS to God. All of us see only in part, meaning ALL of us are at the very least, partially blind. It is only GOD who decides 'who gets light' and who remains a pawn of Satan.

God:"You've sinned"
Sinner:"It's not my fault that I'm not saved, Satan blinded me!"

Look, there is no dispute about this fact, so spare me the drama.

God:"OK whatever I'll let you in heaven"
Sinner:"Yay!"
God:"steady on now.."

Again, you can read Romans 11:26 however you are led to read it EVEN if your VISION does not exist. IF you believe that God is going to burn His Own Children alive forever in fire, WHOOO ray for you. All I'm saying is that WHAT YOU THINK YOU SEE does NOT EXIST as A FACTUAL PRESENTATION.

That god is not a just god, or the God of the bible.

Oh yeah, that MERCIFUL GOD who actually SAVES His Children is one bad dude eh? Seriously what are YOU thinking?

Are you saying God saves ALL?

All vessels of honor will receive mercy.

All vessels of dishonor are GOING to the Lake of Fire.

Not very biblical [a HIDEOUS understatement]

What is hideous is God burning His Own children alive in fire for all of eternity. IF that presentation existed, SO BE IT. But fortunately it is ONLY A REFLECTION of the EVIL in the hearts of BELIEVERS.

It is NOT THERE as A FACT with ONE NAMED INDIVIDUAL as an example. I will admit it's a very good FEAR TOOL to keep the masses coming and paying.

enjoy!

squint

 

[erythro]

Learn to relax or you'll suffer a heart stroke dealing with Theology, young man

Fair play

 

[erythro]

Well, duh. That's what Satan does. Do you think you can stop that by your responsibility? Satan was made to BLIND MINDS to God. All of us see only in part, meaning ALL of us are at the very least, partially blind. It is only GOD who decides 'who gets light' and who remains a pawn of Satan.

squint:

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

ephesians 6:12

We struggle with Satan and his servants, not helpless like a rat before a snake but with the strength of that holy spirit of Jesus within us!

Look, there is no dispute about this fact, so spare me the drama.

Oho yes there is! If what you say is true - what about Adam, or more accurately Eve, when tempted by the snake they were NEVERTHELESS punished for their sin, were they not? Man is responsible and accountable for his sin.

No excuses!

That is why we need justification, because there is no defending our sins!

IF you believe that God is going to burn His Own Children alive forever in fire, WHOOO ray for you.

And if you think that God is going to be unjust and unrighteous, only because it will offend your sensibilities if he was not then WHOO ray for you too.

He is just and righteous, he will judge sinners, the only way to repent of your sin is as it is written in Romans 10:9

That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

That is the only way to justification and salvation, not through some pardon after death (as you seem to think will be the case for the children of Israel and back-slidden Christians)

about Romans 11:26, rick deals with this nicely

Immediate context of Rom 11:26 is right there in vs. 25. When "the fullness of the Gentiles has come in," then "all Israel will be saved." Or, more to the point, "And so all Israel will be saved." The coming in of the fullness or total number of the Gentiles results in "all Israel" being saved.

Further evidence of context is in Romans 10:1, where PAUL IS CLEARLY CONCERNED ABOUT THE SALVATION OF ISRAEL

And finally, the doctrine exists as it is based on honest scriptural interpretation, not on selfish fearmongering in order to fill church pockets, as you seem to think.

 

[squint]

We struggle with Satan and his servants, not helpless like a rat before a snake but with the strength of that holy spirit of Jesus within us!

I don't recall Jesus condemning BLINDED CAPTIVES of the devil to ETERNAL (insert your favorite form of torture.) Where did you pick that up exactly anyway?

Oho yes there is! If what you say is true - what about Adam, or more accurately Eve, when tempted by the snake they were NEVERTHELESS punished for their sin, were they not? Man is responsible and accountable for his sin.

Adam was GODS son. (Luke 3:38) There is exactly ZERO indictions ANYWHERE in the scriptures that God is now or in the future BURNING ADAM alive in fire. There are MANY scriptures that will outright CONTRADICT that view. (trying to stay on topic.)

There are also OTHER reflections about what happened to Adam and Eve in the Garden besides YOURS, that being ADAM or EVE being 'responsible' for the actions of THE SERPENT. I do not believe ONE ENTITY is responsible for the actions of AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT ENTITY. I don't even think IT'S theologically possible to make THE DEVIL behave or be 'responsible.' Do you?

No excuses!

No excuses for WHAT? Please try to insert a specific form of statement with some factual data when providing a rebuttal.

That is why we need justification, because there is no defending our sins!

I never said there was. That still does not equate to God burning BELIEVERS alive forever in fire because that presentation is NOWHERE applied in text to ANY named believer.

And if you think that God is going to be unjust and unrighteous, only because it will offend your sensibilities if he was not then WHOO ray for you too.

All I'm saying Mr. E, is that what you THINK you see does NOT exist in the scriptures. That's all.

He is just and righteous, he will judge sinners, the only way to repent of your sin is as it is written in Romans 10:9

So says you. God can make any sinner repent at the FLASH of TRUTH anytime HE feels like it. No one can RULE GOD out of their hearts and QUANTIFY it.

That is the only way to justification and salvation, not through some pardon after death (as you seem to think will be the case for the children of Israel and back-slidden Christians)

Again, so says you. There are other scripturally legitimate views available. In NO CASE however do we have an actual written record of ANY named believer SAID to be headed for THE LAKE OF FIRE. Such a thing does not exist other than by forced, individually imposed insistence. AS a scriptural FACT to a NAMED believer, such a presentation IS non-existent.

Further evidence of context is in Romans 10:1, where PAUL IS CLEARLY CONCERNED ABOUT THE SALVATION OF ISRAEL

I've never said God is in favor of slaveship to the DEVIL. That does NOT automatically equate to eternally torturing believers in FIRE. I used the Romans 11:26 citing to SHOW that God DOES save unbeliving ISRAEL just as Paul says there. So many formulas cannot 'get past' that scriptural reality, IMHO.

And finally, the doctrine exists as it is based on honest scriptural interpretation, not on selfish fearmongering in order to fill church pockets, as you seem to think.

Again, what you present as it pertains to believers DOES not exist in a single named example in the entirety of the text. That's all I'm pointing to at this point.

enjoy!

squint

 

[erythro]

God can make any sinner repent at the FLASH of TRUTH anytime HE feels like it. No one can RULE GOD out of their hearts and QUANTIFY it.

God is not a rapist, he does not force anyone to accept him.

I don't even think IT'S theologically possible to make THE DEVIL behave or be 'responsible.' Do you?

Yes. Without righteousness, there is no sin. Satan was once righteous, then fell, and will be judged (Isaiah 14:12-15)

No excuses for WHAT?

Sorry that was a bit of a flourish

All I'm saying Mr. E, is that what you THINK you see does NOT exist in the scriptures. That's all.

In the scriptures God is just and righteous, what you are suggesting leaves that simple truth behind and confuses it with your misinterpretations of Paul's writings.

There are other scripturally legitimate views available.

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

It's pretty clear - no salvation without Jesus.

I used the Romans 11:26 citing to SHOW that God DOES save unbeliving ISRAEL just as Paul says there.

And I used Romans 11:25 and Romans 10:9 to show that you must have misinterpreted verse 26.

Again, what you present as it pertains to believers DOES not exist in a single named example in the entirety of the text. That's all I'm pointing to at this point.

True, scripture does not expressly state my point as clearly as I'd like, but NEITHER does it clearly say that it is impossible to lose your salvation. So I personally feel that point is not a strong one.

 

[squint]

God is not a rapist, he does not force anyone to accept him.

Again, so says you. There are contrary presentation in text.

Yes. Without righteousness, there is no sin. Satan was once righteous, then fell, and will be judged (Isaiah 14:12-15)

Boy, you do understand also that there is not ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE that says SATAN was A HOLY AND UNDEFILED angel don't you?

Satan can certainly be A PERFECT DEVIL and not be anywhere close to PERFECT as we might apply to the term.

Do you understand the difficulties with 'automatically inferred' semantics. One person will hear one thing and from the same words another will hear ENTIRELY differently?

In the scriptures God is just and righteous, what you are suggesting leaves that simple truth behind and confuses it with your misinterpretations of Paul's writings.

Why are you trying to pin a false argument on me. I have NEVER SAID God is UNJUST or UNRIGHTEOUS. That again does not 'automatically equate' to God burning believers alive in hell for eternity for falling away in this present life, NOR does it mean I am 'misinterpreting' Paul. I may hear very differently, but that does NOT 'automatically equate' to me being WRONG in what I see, SEE? It is best to make these cases upon ACTUAL FACT, which alone can be VERY difficult depending on THE HEARERS.

It's pretty clear - no salvation without Jesus.

Never said there was, HOWEVER you will have a very hard time convincing me that GOD in Jesus Christ is NOT PERFECT LOVE, therefore JESUS IS LOVE. Just because someone has SOME FORM OF JESUS painted across their lips does NOT automatically equate to their pinpoint ACCURACY of the matter, dig?

And I used Romans 11:25 and Romans 10:9 to show that you must have misinterpreted verse 26.

I see what I see. There is no counter. All of Israel SHALL BE SAVED, even ENEMIES of the Gospel. It says it RIGHT THERE. It won't be going away or eliminated on the interpretive basis of SOME other verse.

True, scripture does not expressly state my point as clearly as I'd like, but NEITHER does it clearly say that it is impossible to lose your salvation. So I personally feel that point is not a strong one.

I have never said it was impossible TO lose salvation WHILE IN THIS PRESENT LIFE. That presentation however is NON-existent as to ETERNAL FATE TO any named individual presented IN TEXT as A FACT. Without that it is at best A VERY DUBIOUS position because IT ISN'T THERE!

s

 

[Zebra1552]

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This thread is closed for a cool down.

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