losing salvation

[Standing Up]

not necessarily

not to you, obviously, but the new definition of "Israel" - the ones supposedly chosen for salvation - became spiritual, not blood, tribe, or nation bound. So a New Testament was necessitated. The kind that cannot be broken by one of the parties - a covenant based on mercy, not ordinance.
There's a red flag...

Why don't you see them?
As clearly others about eternal security have been.

Well, now it sounds like 'safe to sin' - just like the accusation being made about OSAS.

Yes.

Also one should understand this covenant that God alone made.

Gen. 15:17 It came about when the sun had set, that it was very dark, and behold, {there appeared} a smoking oven and a flaming torch which passed between these pieces.

And I wouldn't be too keen on calling the seed of God corruptible.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

So, born again from above by incorruptible seed. One can wander off, but that's about it.

 

[FreeinChrist]

I haven't been on CF in a while, to I hope I am putting this in the right place.
I used to believe in once saved always saved, that is when I thought I knew it all...I wish I knew everything i thought i knew then it was much easier..
I went through a phase, I guess you could say where I was an athiest I just stopped being able to believe. Now I believe..sometimes, but at least I struggle to believe and I wonder sometimes if God is just angry with me because I turned away from him. I wonder if I could have lost his love even though I know from my life as a Christian that is not supposed to be possible. It still feels that way though, or that maybe I haven't lost my salvation but he is angry at me so the struggle is that much harder.


I used to love hearing scripture or hearing someone talk about God because I was close to Him now I shy away from the subject because not only do I feel far and unwanted, but I feel like I know nothing.

Anyways what do you think about OSAS, if you don't believe in it what do you believe could cause you to lose your salvation or God's love?

I am glad that you are turning back to God. He is faithful and is faithful when we are not. And He never stopped loving you.

As to OSAS or not, I feel that once God saw my repentence and belief, He saved me and He knows what He is doing. He is the one doing the forgiving and cleansing and makes us new. And when you stray or struggle, He brings you back like the one sheep that was lost.

God bless you and I will be praying for you.

 

[erythro]

WOAH

GOD has NOT redefined Israel
Its just that the gentiles have been grafted into the covenant WITH ISRAEL and some jews have COME OUT (wait.. it looks like you can leave the new covenant, WOAH)
read the old metaphor with the olive trees - it might straighten you out a bit (Romans 11:11-24)

There's a red flag...

yeap sorry couldn't help it - but you didn't take me up on that

Why don't you see them?

sorry you seem to be SUPPORTING my point there, please clarify

As clearly others about eternal security have been.

meh
now we've got down to scriptural interpretation, it's not worth arguing about that - it's not the crucial point

THAT is what I was on about earlier

Well, now it sounds like 'safe to sin' - just like the accusation being made about OSAS

but not by ME

it is never safe to sin

HOWEVER there is no sin that will stop God loving you (except the unforgivable one, though I always found that a bit vague - though my guess is that if you have committed THAT then you'll bloomin' know about it)

 

[Zebra1552]

I haven't been on CF in a while, to I hope I am putting this in the right place.
I used to believe in once saved always saved, that is when I thought I knew it all...I wish I knew everything i thought i knew then it was much easier..

Welcome back MS!

I went through a phase, I guess you could say where I was an athiest I just stopped being able to believe. Now I believe..sometimes, but at least I struggle to believe and I wonder sometimes if God is just angry with me because I turned away from him. I wonder if I could have lost his love even though I know from my life as a Christian that is not supposed to be possible. It still feels that way though, or that maybe I haven't lost my salvation but he is angry at me so the struggle is that much harder.

As Christians, we don't go by our feelings. Facts (of the Bible) come first, which our faith is based on. The last thing we give priority to is our feelings. Facts get priority, feelings don't. God loves you unconditionally.

I used to love hearing scripture or hearing someone talk about God because I was close to Him now I shy away from the subject because not only do I feel far and unwanted, but I feel like I know nothing.

WHAT!?!?! You're not far and unwanted! Far from it! No! God LOVES you like there's no tomorrow! He loves your socks off!

Anyways what do you think about OSAS, if you don't believe in it what do you believe could cause you to lose your salvation or God's love?

I believe once saved always saved... but not the doctrine. See, I don't think we're fully saved until we get to heaven, at which point it's irreversible. And I don't think justification is all there is to being saved.

 

[Tishri1]

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Miracle Storm))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) love Tish

 

[Miracle Storm]

God bless you and I will be praying for you.

thank you.

Welcome back MS!


As Christians, we don't go by our feelings. Facts (of the Bible) come first, which our faith is based on. The last thing we give priority to is our feelings. Facts get priority, feelings don't. God loves you unconditionally.


WHAT!?!?! You're not far and unwanted! Far from it! No! God LOVES you like there's no tomorrow! He loves your socks off!



I believe once saved always saved... but not the doctrine. See, I don't think we're fully saved until we get to heaven, at which point it's irreversible. And I don't think justification is all there is to being saved.

I agree that are feelings shouldn't come first, but they are definitely hard to ignore. I'm just going to keep pushing, pushing past the crummy feelings.

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((Miracle Storm))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) love Tish

Awww sweetie!!
Much love

 

[MamaZ]

Even when our own heart condemns us God is so much greater than that.. Our salvation is not on our works. But in the work of Christ.. Once He has you in the palm of His hand He will never let you go. Our feelings will lead us on a roller coaster ride but truth sets us free..

 

[squint]

WOAH
GOD has NOT redefined Israel
Its just that the gentiles have been grafted into the covenant WITH ISRAEL and some jews have COME OUT (wait.. it looks like you can leave the new covenant, WOAH)
read the old metaphor with the olive trees - it might straighten you out a bit (Romans 11:11-24)

None of what you think you see here means or equates that God is going to eternally burn Israelites alive forever in fire, eternally annihilate them or eternally separate them from Himself. When you get to vs. 26 of Romans, you WILL find that ALL of Israel SHALL BE SAVED, even those who were MADE enemies of the Gospel for our sakes.

Paul terms this A MYSTERY. And yes MOST who read that mystery have A COVERING come over their own eyes because of the darkness they carry within.

They cannot SEE IT or UNDERSTAND IT, even though it is RIGHT THERE in plain english.

enjoy!

squint

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=FreeinChrist; I am glad that you are turning back to God. He is faithful and is faithful when we are not. And He never stopped loving you.

Amen, hallelujah. Turning back to Him rocks.

As to OSAS or not, I feel that once God saw my repentence and belief, He saved me and He knows what He is doing.

Yes! He saw everything from its beginningto end in His 'mind' so to speak, even before He created it! God saw your repentance before He created you.

God bless you and I will be praying for you.

Amen, me too!

 

[Rick Otto]

quote=erythro; WOAH GOD has NOT redefined Israel

WOAH I didn't say GOD has redefined Israel.

Its just that the gentiles have been grafted into the covenant WITH ISRAEL and some jews have COME OUT

No, being of Israel never meant you automaticaly went to heaven - that was the common misperception both among & around them and that elitist attitude persists in many NTdenominal sects (if you will), today.

(wait.. it looks like you can leave the new covenant, WOAH)

It looks that way only from the mistaken view that you are the ultimate decider of your salvific staus. There is nothing in creation that God didn't already know everything there is to know about it, before it came into existence.
I don't get over God since I got over myself.

read the old metaphor with the olive trees - it might straighten you out a bit (Romans 11:11-24)

I will remain appearing unstraight to all who look upon me with crossed eyes.

yeap sorry couldn't help it - but you didn't take me up on that

I avoid shock talk.

sorry you seem to be SUPPORTING my point there, please clarify

Your assertions don't support your own point. Your statement was so arguable and vague, it could've been scripted for either side of any contention. You added mass, but not density to your position.

meh
now we've got down to scriptural interpretation, it's not worth arguing about that - it's not the crucial point

It is wise to know when to quit.

but not by ME

oh

it is never safe to sin

Maybe not, but its easier to get forgiveness than permission, yes?

Don't take me wrong w/that last question... it is a troublemaking instigator's "trick" type question designed to get you on the spot no matter which way you answer, as long as you answer. I don't realy think that way to operate.

 

[erythro]

to squint - yeap fair play I'll take that point.
I don't know how god will deal with israel - It's up to him as judge and not up to me ( )

But they are clearly not (YET) all part of the new covenant as it is in Jeremiah 31:33 :"I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts."

to rick -

I will remain appearing unstraight

ouch! sorry mate, I guess I was a bit below the belt there

BUT

WOAH I didn't say GOD has redefined Israel.

but the new definition of "Israel" - the ones supposedly chosen for salvation - became spiritual, not blood, tribe, or nation bound.

Forgive me if I have misunderstood, but It appears that you believe Israel has been redefined, but not by God
:S
Which I'm not sure I particularly like - surely God's is the only definition of his own people which matters

I avoid shock talk.

I was only asking for a bible verse! (I think )

Your assertions don't support your own point.

true I was being a bit vague. I'll try to avoid that in future
I meant that I think most verses supporting OSAS are misinterpreted verses about other things, such as God's eternal love and protection. I would go on to reason that OSAS therefore has no scriptural backing, and is therefore wrong.

Maybe not, but its easier to get forgiveness than permission, yes?

As you don't seem to expect me to answer that question - I'll state my case
My thinking on the nature of sin is fairly simple: the wages of sin is death.
I think we agree there

As Paul tells us: all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. How can we be in a relationship with God then? - He won't tolerate sins presence...
I believe Jesus died and took our sins upon himself, so that God looks at us and see Jesus.
We probably agree on that. :/

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:16

Believes.

If you don't believe, you perish.
Thats what I think.

Having said that, even the devils believe -but I suspect you know what I mean.

If you don't - let me know!

 

[squint]

to squint - yeap fair play I'll take that point.
I don't know how god will deal with israel - It's up to him as judge and not up to me ( )

God has already advised us on the eternal fate of Israel. Anyone who is allowed to read can SEE that ALL of Israel shall be saved, Romans 11:26. Evil in the heart toward them WILL NOT and CAN NOT see this OPEN FACT. Being ambiguous about this matter is not required when we have A PLAIN AND OPEN statement.

But they are clearly not (YET) all part of the new covenant as it is in Jeremiah 31:33 :"I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts."

Your only alternative view is that God burns alive HIS OWN CHILDREN in fire, eternally annihilates them or eternally separates them, which is NOT presented ANYWHERE in the scriptures and which understanding is against Paul's testimony of this MYSTERY.

All of Israel are taught to be Gods children in Deut. 14:1 and Psalm 82:6 for brief examples.

When you SLUR Gods children, it is an AUTOMATIC slur against God as well, as HE IS their Father. Make them SINNERS and you make GOD The Father of SINNERS. (NOT theologically possible.)

This is HOW God VIEWS THEM:

Numbers 23:21
He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob, neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: the LORD his God is with him, and the shout of a king is among them.

enjoy!

squint

 

[erythro]

Make them SINNERS and you make GOD The Father of SINNERS

ALL HAVE SINNED Romans 3:23
THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH Romans 6:23

Paul (a Jew) says this

I (a Jew) agree

I wouldn't talk about Jews as "them" all the time, our promise is the same as the one for the gentiles

Evil in the heart toward them WILL NOT and CAN NOT see this OPEN FACT.

I assure you I have no evil in the heart toward my own (very extended) family

 

[squint]

ALL HAVE SINNED Romans 3:23

THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH Romans 6:23

Paul (a Jew) says this

STILL nothing there about eternal torture/damnation of ANY including Israel, which seems to be your intent of conveyance.

I (a Jew) agree

The topic if I recall was about eternal loss of salvation, to which there is nary a single named human example, O.T. or N.T.

I wouldn't talk about Jews as "them" all the time, our promise is the same as the one for the gentiles

I don't differentiate.

I assure you I have no evil in the heart toward my own (very extended) family

Great! Who is it then you seek to burn alive forever, eternally kill or eternally separate? (in your reflection or Gods. (in either case it will be YOUR reflection thinking it is Gods.)

enjoy!

s

 

[erythro]

STILL nothing there about eternal torture/damnation of ANY including Israel, which seems to be your intent of conveyance.

true

Very well then, the point I'm making there is that sin separates us from God (biblical). Everyone has sinned (biblical). The only way to remove these sins from yourself is to repent THROUGH JESUS (biblical).


Jesus says

I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

No Jesus, no Father.

The topic if I recall was about eternal loss of salvation

I am addressing your point about the Jews, and whether it is possible to leave the covenant as stated in Jeremiah 31:31 - if it is, then you can lose your salvation.

Great! Who is it then you seek to burn alive forever

Stop making a straw man of my argument!!
I'm not seeking to burn anyone alive forever - as I'm sure you know.

I don't know who is going to hell - I've got a few guesses (e.g. Hitler).
I know I'm going to heaven, and all who are in a relationship with Jesus Christ through his spirit will too.

And as to those who aren't: God says -

I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

So it's up to him - as it should be.

 

[squint]

true
Very well then, the point I'm making there is that sin separates us from God (biblical). Everyone has sinned (biblical). The only way to remove these sins from yourself is to repent THROUGH JESUS (biblical).

The falling of any believer is as it pertains to this life, BACK into slaveship to SIN. There is exactly ZERO record of any named believing person said to be going to be burned alive forever, which was the point of my original post. Those who 'think' they see that only see a reflection of their own minds and hearts, and in that condemnation has in fact entered INTO them. Such remain slaves of darkness themselves. Romans 2:1

Jesus says
No Jesus, no Father.

I am addressing your point about the Jews, and whether it is possible to leave the covenant as stated in Jeremiah 31:31 - if it is, then you can lose your salvation.

Read your New Testament. Paul clearly stated that ALL OF ISRAEL SHALL BE SAVED, even those who were 'made' enemies of the Gospel. Romans 11:26-32

Stop making a straw man of my argument!!
I'm not seeking to burn anyone alive forever - as I'm sure you know.

Oh really? What you say is what many say: I don't BUT GOD DOES. I say, IF God does, then SHOW ME ONE NAMED HUMAN EXAMPLE, not from your imaginations, but in TEXT.

I don't know who is going to hell -

The devil and his messengers are ASSUREDLY going into the LAKE OF FIRE for all of eternity.

I've got a few guesses (e.g. Hitler).
I know I'm going to heaven, and all who are in a relationship with Jesus Christ through his spirit will too.

And as to those who aren't: God says -

So it's up to him - as it should be.

Paul also said enemies of the Gospel as it pertains to unbelieving Israel are SAVED AFTER death.

enjoy!

squint

 

[erythro]

John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?8Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. The axe is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire."

Luke 3:7-9

If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.

Matthew 18:8

anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell

Matthew 5:22

Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire

Matthew 7:19

It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell

Matthew 18:9

Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

Matthew 25:41-45

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

Matthew 23:15

It is odd that you are not concerned about the salvation of the Jews when Jesus CLEARLY is.

Erythro

 

[Albion]

Very well then, the point I'm making there is that sin separates us from God (biblical). Everyone has sinned (biblical). The only way to remove these sins from yourself is to repent THROUGH JESUS (biblical).

I think we all are on the same page there...as you've stated your point. BUT we have to come to grips with more than the fact that we escape the consequences of sin through Jesus. How does one come to the faith? Is it a result of his own brainpower and volition? No. It is only through God choosing us to have the faith that we may be saved. That's the indispensible part of the issue that is, nevertheless, often overlooked as people argue that we should repent or have faith.

 

[erythro]

I think we all are on the same page there...as you've stated your point. BUT we have to come to grips with more than the fact that we escape the consequences of sin through Jesus. How does one come to the faith? Is it a result of his own brainpower and volition? No. It is only through God choosing us to have the faith that we may be saved. That's the indispensible part of the issue that is, nevertheless, often overlooked as people argue that we should repent or have faith.

oh no please don't bring Calvinism into this...

 

[Albion]

oh no please don't bring Calvinism into this...

No one did. (At least not until you did there.)

However, it's just not sufficient to say something like this--

" The only way to remove these sins from yourself is to repent THROUGH JESUS (biblical)."

As though that explains everything, and there's nothing more to say except to wait for all to nod in agreement. The OP began with a person who thouight God might have given up on him because he, the poster, doubted or drifted during some part of his lifetime.

That is not the way God works, and it is important to be straight on that.