Losing my religion, where is the evidence for God

trailmovin

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I have been brought up Church of England here in the UK. Went to Sunday School, CofE primary and Middle. Involved with church based SCout Groups as a Leader. I have been attending church about once a month at my local village church. However I now find myself in a tricky position as I realise I am actually an agnostic atheist.

I have been searching for evidence of Gods existence and can’t find any. Each time I try to find the truth I am merely presented with faith as proof by Christians and the use of presuppositional apologetics, which frankly I find utterly dishonest.

Is there somewhere where I can discuss evidence for God and for the Christian faith with people who may have a similarly rational and evidence based mindset?
Hebrews 11 Faith is the substance of things hoped for,and the evidence not seen Hebrews11:6-8 for without faith it is impossible to please him; for those that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of those that diligently seek him. Let me say that what you're looking for is not out in the clouds somewhere.Luke 17;20-21 the kingdom of God cometh not with observation; Neither shall they say, Lo here! or Lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. I would suggest starting there, as He is very close if you will receive His life within, it's offered as a free gift. The evidence you're looking for is very close, but you have to, Matthew 7;7 ask and it shall be given, seek and you shall find, knock and the door shall be opened
 
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Steve Petersen

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Hebrews 11 Faith is the substance of things hoped for,and the evidence not seen Hebrews11:6-8 for without faith it is impossible to please him; for those that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of those that diligently seek him. Let me say that what you're looking for is not out in the clouds somewhere.Luke 17;20-21 the kingdom of God cometh not with observation; Neither shall they say, Lo here! or Lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. I would suggest starting there, as He is very close if you will receive His life within, it's offered as a free gift. The evidence you're looking for is very close, but you have to, Matthew 7;7 ask and it shall be given, seek and you shall find, knock and the door shall be opened

Thank you for pointing out that faith is irrational.
 
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ExTiff

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Thank you for pointing out that faith is irrational.

Surely if faith was 'rational' it could hardly be faith, could it?

I mean how much do you rationalise and come to a purely data based decision to believe someone loves you or that you love someone?

How do you decide whether someone can be trusted when you first meet them? Do you require letters of introduction, or exercise a degree of 'faith' in their as yet unproven and untested integrity?

Is it really possible to go through life making only rational decisions ever on everything?
.
 
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Steve Petersen

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Surely if faith was 'rational' it could hardly be faith, could it?

I mean how much do you rationalise and come to a purely data based decision to believe someone loves you or that you love someone?

How do you decide whether someone can be trusted when you first meet them? Do you require letters of introduction, or exercise a degree of 'faith' in their as yet unproven and untested integrity?

Is it really possible to go through life making only rational decisions ever on everything?
.

People are tangible. God is not.
 
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DarkSoul999

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So you believe life started from a single cell, correct? How did that cell come to have a nucleus containing DNA and a mitochondria to power it, etc? Chance?

The opposite direction. Started off as smaller molecules then to larger ones eventually connecting to form RNA then DNA and all the way up to functional cell. All this happened because the environment of the Earth had the perfect conditions for these molecular interactions followed by interactions between larger compounds and molecular chains.

There is absolutely zero evidence that everything magically 'poofed' into existence but most Christians (not the Bible) demand that everyone believe in magical spontaneous generation.

Mid-20th century physicists almost universally believed that the universe was fined due to the highly strict laws of physics. They accepted the possibility that there might be CREATOR even if they absolutely despised religion. Now in the 21st century this has not changed at all. Not even the weird world of quantum mechanics is weird anymore. It is basically found to be logical and non-random.

A creator is still a far cry from a personal God who cares about you. There is no physical evidence for a loving God, just historical accounts. That is the best we will get.
 
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DarkSoul999

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Hey Ross. Thanks for sharing your honest thoughts brother. God wants us to be honest with how we feel. He has no problem giving us all the proof we need to know that He is real, and that He love us. I suggest you try approach God this way - instead of trying to find evidence for God, try to find evidence for the lack of God. From birth, there is something wired in all of us, an instinctual knowing that God is real. Honestly, it's all about knowing Him. I can list many instances in my life, daily even where I see Him, where He speaks to me, where supernatural things happen. But it's not about those things - it's about His Love! My friend, open your heart, like a child and just ask Him to show Himself real, and alive in your life. He will.

Then some of us were born defective and God should apologize for making us by mistake. We seem to be missing this special "wiring" that you lucky lotto winners seem to have.
 
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mark kennedy

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So to translate you are calling Ross a filthy liar and God is going to kick his butt to no end. Wonderful. I'm sure he'll be delighted...
That's not the message of Romans 1. Its saying God's divine attributes and eternal are clearly seen, but we, not just Ross, suppress the truth in unrighteousness.
 
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DarkSoul999

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It seems you don't really read what i wrote.
I just GAVE you the reason.
Is that a "jump" ?
But we're in this universe.
What makes you assume there are more universes? Because some smart sounding labcoat with a tie rambles about it?
The multiverse idea was invented to give naturalism more chance.

If you are claiming to understand M-theory and string theory then you need to ask God to forgive you for your PRIDE. Only a tiny handful of the billions on Earth are studying this field. It is an extremely specialized niche field that is not really understand by many physicists and not at all understood by the general public.

It is beyond obvious that you have never even glanced at the work. Stop being a LIAR!
 
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DarkSoul999

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That's not the message of Romans 1. Its saying God's divine attributes and eternal are clearly seen, but we, not just Ross, suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

Well then I guess we are ALL going to Hell then, right?
 
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gadar perets

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There is no physical evidence for a loving God, just historical accounts. That is the best we will get.
Well, if that's what you believe, then that is the best you will get. Sad indeed.
 
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DarkSoul999

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Well, if that's what you believe, then that is the best you will get. Sad indeed.

I don't understand what you are trying to say. The Bible is quite LITERALLY a historical account. There are absolutely zero scientific formulas in that book.

As for the physical evidence in nature....the Fall of Adam and Eve annihilated any clear evidence of loving design even if it may have been visible before then. I work at a hospital and you would not believe the horrors I see on a daily basis. Absolutely nothing in our lives is orderly and predictable. For example, if you can even take a breath without feeling extreme pain in your lungs or move from a supine to a sitting position without feeling like you are going to vomit out your own brains then you hit the jackpot!
 
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ldonjohn

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Ross, 40+ years ago I was asking questions about God & the bible similar to those you are asking today. I want to explain how I did find the truth that I was so desperately seeking and how today I still have the same lasting peace that I found back then.

I grew up attending a Baptist church where every Sunday I heard about sin, God, and Jesus dying on the cross, and heard that if I wanted to be “saved” and go to heaven that I had to repent and believe in Jesus. Sometimes in church I would hear Christians tell how God reached down from heaven and gloriously save them. Well, of course I wanted to go the heaven; not hell, so as a teenager I went to the altar and said the sinners' prayer “in Jesus' name'” and got saved.
Later, as a young adult I would think to myself “how do I know I was saved?” I had heard other Christians tell how they knew for certain that they were saved, but I really did not have any kind of definite assurance that God had gloriously saved me. Also, sometimes the preacher would lead people in the sinners' prayer where he would add the words “and I promise to follow Jesus the rest of my life,” and sometimes he would add “I repent of all my sins,” or “I commit my life to Christ,” and then he would finish by saying “now if you said that prayer or something like it, and if you really meant business with God, then you're saved.” I would think to myself “when I was saved did I really repent of all my sins, or did I really commit my life to Christ,” or “did really mean business with God?” Over a period of several years of questioning myself as to whether or not I had said the right things or had really believed, or really had the right kind of “saving” faith at the moment I was “saved” I began to doubt that I was saved.

Those doubts led me to ask a lot of questions about how Jesus saved anyone. I talked to 3 different pastors who served in our church, I talked to my Sunday school teacher, I found & read several books about salvation written by well known Christian authors, and I listened to some radio preachers, and read bible tracts. I was searching for answers about God & about the bible, I was looking for something that would convince me that it was all true. I wanted evidence that would show me that God was real and that when Jesus saves someone they would know it, because the preacher did say that when we get saved we would know that we are saved. But all I found was the same message I had already heard in church, and I did not know that I was saved. I did not understand how just saying a prayer “in Jesus's name” saved anyone. I thought that something was missing; that there was a missing link, and that I was not ever going to find whatever it was.

Over a period of several years I seriously began to think that God was not real, and that the bible was not true. I could not find the evidence, that missing link that would convince me that all the things I had heard about God & Jesus were true, my life was miserable and I did not know what to do.

One night I went to bed hoping to get some sleep and as I lay there looking up at the ceiling in my bedroom I just gave up on trying to figure it all out. For some reason, out of a sense of helpless desperation, I said a prayer to the God I wasn't sure even existed. I said “God, will you show me the truth about you and about believing in Jesus?” I went to sleep and slept better that night than I had slept in a long time.

The next day I had 2 college classes in the morning and that afternoon/night I worked on a research paper until about 9 pm and then for some reason I thought about the large family bible sitting on a table that we never opened. I put up the research paper and got that bible, wiped off the dust, and opened it to the Gospel of John. I remembered someone saying that if anyone wanted to find out about Jesus that he/she should read the Gospel of John so I started to read John 1:1.

I had read some of the Gospel of John as a child in church, we never read in the bible at home, and back then I really didn't pay attention to it, but that night sitting at my kitchen table, as I read in the Gospel of John I realized that for the first time in my life I was understanding scripture. As I read John chapter 1 something was explaining it to me. I saw that Jesus was God who became a man so that He could suffer and die on the cross to pay the penalty for my sin. By the time I read through the first 6 chapters of the gospel of John I had found that missing link that I thought I would never find. I found the “evidence” that completely convinced me that the bible is true, that God is real, and that Jesus will do exactly what He said He will do.

When I began to read in the Gospel of John I did not know what I would find there, but I was willing to accept whatever it was if it convinced me that it is the truth. Well, it is kind of difficult to explain to someone who has not found it for himself. I doubt that anyone could have explained it to me back then since I had spend years talking to other Christians, reading books, etc. and never found my answer. Some Christians talk about their “experience” and I guess it could be called an experience, but to me it was more like a light being turned on for me and “I got it.” I found the answer I thought I would never find. You have probably heard the verse “I once was blind, but now I see” in the song Amazing Grace. Well, that's it. I was blinded to the truth of the bible and suddenly I could see it. I hope you want me to tell what it is that I could see because here it is.

God does not care about what I could do or what I did do when I was trying to get him to save me. All the prayers I said did not save me. None of the promises I made did not save me. My trip down to the altar at church did not save me. I saw that there was absolutely nothing that I could do be saved because Jesus had already done all that God required for me to be forgiven when He, Jesus God the Son, was nailed to the cross, and suffered & shed His blood there as He died in my place to pay the penalty for my sin. A penalty that I could not pay. When Jesus said “It is finished” He was saying that my sin debt to God was already paid. Paid “in full.” All God wanted me to do was to see that Jesus did that for “me” and for me to stop trying to do whatever I thought I needed to do to get Him to save me, but to simply rest in His finished work on the cross. That I did and I immediately found myself saying a prayer. A prayer where I did not have to beg Him to save me, but a prayer where I was thanking Him for dying on the cross to forgive my sins and where I asked Him to give me His new life. That He did, and an enormous sense of relief flooded my troubled soul. I became a believer that night, and I did not have to try to make myself believe. I did not have to try to work up a sense of strong faith as I had done in the past. No, Ross, I found that missing link. The link that provided evidence that was so real that it made a believer out of me, and all I did was obey a scripture that at the time I knew nothing about. This scripture, Jeremiah 29:13, “And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart” says that if you earnestly search after God you will find Him.

Finally, the missing link is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit gave me the light I needed to see the truth I was so desperately seeking. The verse below describe me before I gave up on myself and turned to God for my answers.

1 Corinthians 2:14, “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

After I did give up on “self” and did turn to God, the Holy Spirit began His work in me and allowed me to see the truth about God's way of redeeming us back to Him. He actually “turned on the light” for me and “I got it.” He brought me out of spiritual darkness into the light of the truth of the Bible.

Ross, you will not find the truth without the work of the Holy Spirit through the Word of God, the Bible. If you will seek God as described in Jeremiah 29:13 He, God, will do for you the same thing He did for me and has done for every person who became a believer in the Gospel message.

Sorry this post is so long. I hope you read all of it.

Don
 
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gadar perets

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I don't understand what you are trying to say.
I am saying that if you need physical evidence to know their is a loving God, then that is sad indeed. Especially when creation is all the evidence one needs, but you reject it.
 
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DarkSoul999

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I am saying that if you need physical evidence to know their is a loving God, then that is sad indeed. Especially when creation is all the evidence one needs, but you reject it.

Creation is in a FALLEN state because of sin. Therefore there is absolutely no evidence of a loving god in creation. Some things in nature are healthier than others but it is mostly a chaotic mess.

God is in a limbus far above us and utterly detached. He once visited Earth in human form for a brief while then returned to limbus while our moronic species continues to rack up points against it.

Explain what I am missing here....
 
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gadar perets

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Creation is in a FALLEN state because of sin. Therefore there is absolutely no evidence of a loving god in creation. Some things in nature are healthier than others but it is mostly a chaotic mess.

God is in a limbus far above us and utterly detached. He once visited Earth in human form for a brief while then returned to limbus while our moronic species continues to rack up points against it.

Explain what I am missing here....
What I think you are saying is that there is a Creator, thus a creation, and that there is a "God", but He is not loving and is totally detached from His creatures. I'm not sure what you mean by "limbus". Perhaps you mean "limbo"? What you are missing is the reattachment of the Creator to men who believe in Him and His Son Yeshua through the Atonement which makes fallen man one with his Creator again. Believers most definitely live in a fallen creation, but we are not detached from our Creator. His Son's death brought us into a loving two way relationship with Him and His Son.
 
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DarkSoul999

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What I think you are saying is that there is a Creator, thus a creation, and that there is a "God", but He is not loving and is totally detached from His creatures. I'm not sure what you mean by "limbus". Perhaps you mean "limbo"? What you are missing is the reattachment of the Creator to men who believe in Him and His Son Yeshua through the Atonement which makes fallen man one with his Creator again. Believers most definitely live in a fallen creation, but we are not detached from our Creator. His Son's death brought us into a loving two way relationship with Him and His Son.

Only an incredibly small number of people believe in him ENOUGH for any of that to be true.

For the rest of the 99% of humanity he is as I described.

P.S I call heaven a "limbus" because it is completely detached from our reality. Heaven is not even remotely imaginable and we are almost certainly NOT getting in despite the sacrifice of Jesus.
 
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