Losing faith in "faith alone"

[redleghunter]

Such thinking leads to apathy. Why we should we care if God is pulling all the strings?

It's really not pulling strings as a puppet master. It's God's Will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

Think on Ephesians 1 in the mindset of the parable of the soils and ask why didn't all the seeds fall on good soil.

As Jesus said, "For many are called, but few are chosen."

 

[MDC]

But this is like saying:

I am saved by God's grace + sinful deeds.
The opposite of this equation is: I am saved by God's grace + good deeds.

There is no in-between going on here.

One is either saved in doing evil or one is saved in doing good.

There’s no grace nor Christ in your equation. Romans 4:4. Now to him who works, the wages are NOT according to grace but according to debt.

 

[MDC]

The question is did Luther make it to the end?

Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Romans 8:33. The elect in Christ are secure because Christ is faithful and it is He who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? vs. 34-35.

 

[zoidar]

Don't know how much more we can clear this up. God chooses, He is Sovereign in His creation and in Salvation.

Ephesians 1 can't be anymore clear.

That God elected those who believe for salvation?

 

[redleghunter]

That God elected those who believe for salvation?

Are you asking if Ephesians 1 is clear on how God is Sovereign in His election and in doing so such glorifies Christ?

Yes I believe the chapter makes that quite clear.

 

[redleghunter]

I understand that he did not die immediately after he committed his sins of adultery and murder. I was speaking hypothetically if he did die immediately.

Then perhaps we should find a Biblical example of a person who did evil in the site of the Lord and did not repent and did instead of hypotheticals.

I can think of one and that was Judas. Yet can anyone clearly come to the conclusion Judas trusted in Christ for his deliverance and was saved?

Which brings us back to Romans 9:18

So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. (Romans 9:18)

Jesus refers to Judas as "the son of perdition" in John 17:12 and his betrayal of Jesus was a fulfillment of the Scriptures.

I'm truly sorry I will not entertain hypothetical situations like what if David died before repenting. It did not happen according to God's design. God even sent a message to David from the prophet Nathan. That is Divine Grace and no sin was going to overturn God's design for one of His elect.

 

[redleghunter]

But this is like saying:

I am saved by God's grace + sinful deeds.
The opposite of this equation is: I am saved by God's grace + good deeds.

There is no in-between going on here.

One is either saved in doing evil or one is saved in doing good.

Actually an error in premise. We are either children of God or children of wrath. We cannot be a mixture.

 

[Paidiske]

MOD HAT ON
This thread is closed for review.
MOD HAT OFF​

 

[Paidiske]

MOD HAT ON
I am re-opening this thread.
I remind you again to avoid flaming and goading.​

Further violations of this rule are not likely to be viewed leniently.​

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[112358]

Yes! Thank you!

And a thread-wide apology from me for making a comment personal directed @amariselle. This particular topic gets me fired up so I will be more careful.

This is one of the better threads I have seen so thanks again for all your comments.

 

[discipler7]

Faith plus nothing asserts that nothing we “do” has any bearing on our salvation. Yet faith/belief is something we “do”. Non sequitur. End of debate.

Faith plus something asserts that faith alone has no bearing on our salvation.

Faith/belief (in Christ unto salvation) is definitely not something we "do". ...

HEBREWS.12: = The Race of Faith
1 Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

HEBREWS.11: = 1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

 

[discipler7]

James says that we are justified by works.

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

Bear in mind that James was the bishop of Jerusalem(and not Peter.?) and leader of the Judaizers, a group of early Jewish Christians who had demanded that the new Gentile Christians converted by Paul, be required to also keep Moses Law like themselves and the Jews, eg be circumcised. (GALATIANS.2:9-17, ACTS.15:24-29 & 21:17-25)
....... This was why James taught "justified by works(of the Law)" which was quite against Paul's teaching of "justified by faith in Jesus Christ". Peter and John agreed with Paul, ie "justified by faith or belief in Christ".

 

[zoidar]

Bear in mind that James was the bishop of Jerusalem(and not Peter.?) and leader of the Judaizers, a group of early Jewish Christians who had demanded that the new Gentile Christians converted by Paul, be required to also keep Moses Law like themselves and the Jews, eg be circumcised. (GALATIANS.2:9-17, ACTS.15:24-29 & 21:17-25)
....... This was why James taught "justified by works(of the Law)" which was quite against Paul's teaching of "justified by faith in Jesus Christ". Peter and John agreed with Paul, ie "justified by faith or belief in Christ".

The whole Bible is inspired by God (2 Tim 3:16).

 

[zoidar]

Well, as you know, I believe He is Lord, whether or not we always obey Him or do good works. God is the One Who has given Him the Name above all names. He certainly does not need us or our obedience for that.

I believe so too. If He is Lord we got a purpose in life to live for him, and do what he says. To live in perfect obedience is not possible, neither is it required.

I suppose discussing relationship is one thing, and yes, I do believe that is absolutely part of discipleship.

I believe our salvation depends on it.

But I think of the story of Mary and Martha, and I know that relationship does not necessarily require a lot of striving and effort on our part. The most important part of being a disciple is learning from your teacher, and to do this we must learn to listen first. (In His word and through the leading of the Holy Spirit). Mary, she simply sat at Jesus’ feet, and He commended her for that.

Listening is also part of obedience.

 

[zoidar]

Abiding in Christ is faithful discipleship.

If we are abiding in Christ we do what he says.

 

[zoidar]

There’s no grace nor Christ in your equation. Romans 4:4. Now to him who works, the wages are NOT according to grace but according to debt.

... those who try to be saved by the work of the Mosaic Law.

 

[discipler7]

ROMANS.11: = 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

The Jews were broken off from the natural olive tree because of unbelief = they rejected Christ.
....... Natural olive tree = God's tree of Judaism/Old Testament and New Testament

Gentile Christians have been grafted into the natural olive tree and they stand by faith (in Christ). If Gentile Christians do not continue in God's goodness, they too will be cut off because of unbelief or faithlessness or lost faith or renounced faith, and not because of sins/evil-works/no-works/no-fruits/disobedience.
....... It is unbelief or faithlessness which leads to sins/evil-works/no-works/no-fruits/disobedience.

P S - Gentile Christians are considered wild olive trees because most of them had previously led lawless lives from childhood, wrt Moses Law.

 

[zoidar]

Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Romans 8:33. The elect in Christ are secure because Christ is faithful and it is He who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? vs. 34-35.

Maybe Luther wasn't one of the elect.

 

[zoidar]

Are you asking if Ephesians 1 is clear on how God is Sovereign in His election and in doing so such glorifies Christ?

Yes I believe the chapter makes that quite clear.

No, I'm saying all who give their life to Jesus will be among the group elect and be saved.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Bear in mind that James was the bishop of Jerusalem(and not Peter.?) and leader of the Judaizers, a group of early Jewish Christians who had demanded that the new Gentile Christians converted by Paul, be required to also keep Moses Law like themselves and the Jews, eg be circumcised. (GALATIANS.2:9-17, ACTS.15:24-29 & 21:17-25)
....... This was why James taught "justified by works(of the Law)" which was quite against Paul's teaching of "justified by faith in Jesus Christ". Peter and John agreed with Paul, ie "justified by faith or belief in Christ".

Are you saying the apostles did not agree with each other and some did not agree with Jesus!!
Then how are we to know WHO was writing the truth!!

ALL the Apostles agreed with each other. Jesus was with them for over 3 years and taught them well exactly what He wanted to teach them.

It's new and modern ideas that are making some say what you stated above....this is wrong.