Losing faith in "faith alone"

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mark kennedy

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Where in Romans 12 is the word Chrism used?

That was a mistake I meant to say 1 Cor. 12.

Chrism means annointed, not gift. Please state the verse. I can't remember this. Yes, grace is much more, but unmerited favor is ok. And yes, we do need the help of the Holy Spirit for righteous works which are done for God and not for salvation.
Im typing this on a cell phone, guess Im a clumsy thumb typist. The passage is found in 1 Corinthians 12, followed by the love chapter 1 Cor. 13 and then the 14th chapter that discusses the gifts in our worship service.

Agreed.


Agreed. By being a servant we mean that we're to help as much as we can and be useful in whatever way we can be.


AMEN!

According to most, if not all Christian theology the point you are converted, born again of the Spirit and become a new crearure in Christ, is referred to as justification. Justification begins the sanctification process, the believer now indwelled by the Holy Spirit of promise. The manifestation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit and bearing the fruit of the Holy Spirit are works of grace in the hearts and minds of believers, translated ultimately into works of righteousness.

My point is that it's all by grace, but only at conversion is it exclusively the work of God. As time wears on and the believer matures, the babe in Christ becomes a disciple. That discipline drinks deep from the river of God's grace, like the tree planted beside the waters in Psalm 1. Destined to bear fruit, to have the word of God dwell in them richly, and to worship God in Spirit and in truth. There is a difference between the works of righteousness and a righteousness based on works. We do well to discern the difference.
 
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redleghunter

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How could you say this when JESUS HIMSELF said we will be judged by our works?
Please exegete
John 5:28-29

James 2:24
James 2:26
Mathew 5:16
Mathew 11:23

Faith is not even mentioned.
ONLY works.
Let's start here again:

John 5:28-29

What are the "good deeds to a resurrection of life"
Meaning what led these people to obtain such a thing as 'good deeds' leading to the resurrection of life?
 
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Phil 1:21

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Jesus KNEW FROM THE BEGINNING which of the disciples would not believe NOT the apostles. We can't know what Jesus knew or not about Judas. We have to go by what is written.
Isaiah 46:9-10

9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
 
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zoidar

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No, not at all. I meant it! I think it's great you answer from how you understand the scripture and that you take time doing so. It gives me something to think about, and also tests if what I believe in is holding water.

If you are focused on your own "fleshly" obedience and good works, that is the "flesh." And the "flesh" wars against the "Spirit."

What is works of the Spirit to you?

So, you think Abraham was always obedient? What about when he allowed his wife Sarah, through whom God had promised his descendants would come, to not once, but twice, be taken into another man's harem? Did God forsake him for doing such a faithless and sinful thing?

Or what about all the other OT "saints"? Moses who was a murderer, David who was a murderer and an adulterer. Or Saul (Paul) a murderer of Christians. Honestly, when we read Scripture we should see that it is always because of God's faithfulness and never ours that we are saved. He has indeed shown His unfailing grace and mercy toward us, most wonderfully and incomparably in His Son.

Exactly, by faith because God promised, and no matter how many times man fails, and is faithless, God is faithful to His promises and never fails.

We can take credit for NONE of it.

I think it has to do with repentance and forgiveness. All people can fail. When we fail we turn to God for forgiveness, that is part of being obedient.

I agree that no credit is given us, our good works we owe to God.
 
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zoidar

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Inferring that I don't want Jesus as my Lord.

I would never imply such a thing. I'm sorry you saw it that way. All I meant is that God has done everything for us, everything! It's not his fault people don't want him as Lord. To me you seem pretty serious in your faith, so I would be surprised if you didn't have Jesus as Lord.

Surely God did exactly what He intended and that is more than enough.
 
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112358

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Salvation isn't due to our faithfulness, but to God's. Take Abraham for example, twice he gave away Sarah, the wife through whom God had promised him descendants, and through whom Christ would ultimately come. Abraham was faithless in doing so, yet God remained faithful and did not forsake Abraham or retract His promise. The same thing happened with Issac and Rebekah, but, again God was faithful to His promise. It's always been about the Gospel and it's always been and always will be thanks to the faithfulness of God that we are saved and kept securely.
This is not the first OT example that has been used in an attempt to claim that salvation has nothing to do with our faithfulness. First, of course none of the great men of faith in the OT were perfect, as are none of us. I have never claimed otherwise. Those people were not truly saved anyway until Christ died on the cross. But if you have any real knowledge of How God dealt with faithlessness in the OT, you know it was not pretty.

Second, in spite of the forefathers faithlessness, and Israel's, God never allowed His will to be thwarted. In fact in Ezekiel 20:44 Ezekiel 36:22 Ezekiel 36:32 He says that His will would be done no matter what they did, it was not for their sake. It was for His glory, for His name's sake. And it always will be. NO MATTER WHAT.

BUT. This was all because the redemption scheme was still in motion, not because He was so concerned with saving lawless people who continually rebelled against the plan. Read all of Ezekiel if you think that's why He made sure SOME of them (the obedient ones) always came back to Him.

But now the great redemption plan is complete. Now that Christ has finished it, the standard for obedience has been raised in every respect. How many times did Christ say, "It was written before, but NOW I tell you..." Obedience has never been more important to God or to His children. That's why He tells us that we crucify afresh the Savior when we depart from the faith. That is serious!

Even our very temporary earthly lives are thanks to His generous mercy and provision. Not a single one of us has any reason to boast before Him. None. We can take credit for nothing.
Absolutely true. Our very existence both physically and spiritually a result of the work and benevolence of the Almighty Creator, who alone has the power to destroy both body and soul in hell. All the more reason to submit in reverence to His Holy commands.
 
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amariselle

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No, not at all. I meant it! I think it's great you answer from how you understand the scripture and that you take time doing so. It gives me something to think about, and also tests if what I believe in is holding water.

That's why I asked. I wasn't sure. :) I do appreciate your responses as well. I know it can take some time to type things out.

What is works of the Spirit to you?

Galatians 5:22-23

I think it has to do with repentance and forgiveness. All people can fail. When we fail we turn to God for forgiveness, that is part of being obedient.

Yes. Agreed. We should always come boldly before the "throne of grace." As saved believers, we are blessed to know that Jesus is our Great High Priest and Mediator, and He will help us always in times of need.

I agree that no credit is given us, our good works we owe to God.

Agreed.
 
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redleghunter

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Clearly the "labour" discussed is not works, it says right there, those who have entered into "rest" have "ceased from their own works." (Repentance from "dead works.") The "labour" in context, is faith, believing that Christ really did do enough to save us, to the "uttermost." He gives us eternal life.
What's interesting is later in Hebrews chapter 11 we see those of great faith who trusted in God's promise...a promise they could not see but were confident He would deliver.

Excellent point, thanks for that post. God Bless!
 
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amariselle

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I would never imply such a thing. I'm sorry you saw it that way. All I meant is that God has done everything for us, everything! It's not his fault people don't want him as Lord. To me you seem pretty serious in your faith, so I would be surprised if you didn't have Jesus as Lord.

Okay, and I apologize that I misunderstood you. :)

Yes, Jesus is Lord of Lord and King of Kings. His is the Name above all names. Honestly, I know He is my Lord, and I am beyond thankful, but even if no one wanted Him to be Lord, He still would be.

Philippians 2:
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
 
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amariselle

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This is not the first OT example that has been used in an attempt to claim that salvation has nothing to do with our faithfulness. First, of course none of the great men of faith in the OT were perfect, as are none of us. I have never claimed otherwise. Those people were not truly saved anyway until Christ died on the cross. But if you have any real knowledge of How God dealt with faithlessness in the OT, you know it was not pretty.

So, how did He deal with Abraham in those instances where he gave his wife to other men?

Second, in spite of the forefathers faithlessness, and Israel's, God never allowed His will to be thwarted. In fact in Ezekiel 20:44 Ezekiel 36:22 Ezekiel 36:32 He says that His will would be done no matter what they did, it was not for their sake. It was for His glory, for His name's sake. And it always will be. NO MATTER WHAT.

I absolutely agree. That's the exact same reason He keeps all those secure who are His, because He has promised and He will do it, for His Name's sake.

BUT. This was all because the redemption scheme was still in motion, not because He was so concerned with saving lawless people who continually rebelled against the plan. Read all of Ezekiel if you think that's why He made sure SOME of them (the obedient ones) always came back to Him.

Actually, Scripture tells us plainly that the Lamb of God was slain from the foundation of the world. Salvation through Christ has always been God's perfect plan, and the promise of this Gospel was given to Abraham 430 years before the Law. Everything God did was to work all things together according to His perfect will and His perfect plan.

But now the great redemption plan is complete. Now that Christ has finished it, the standard for obedience has been raised in every respect. How many times did Christ say, "It was written before, but NOW I tell you..." Obedience has never been more important to God or to His children. That's why He tells us that we crucify afresh the Savior when we depart from the faith. That is serious!

Actually, the "good work He began in us" is not yet complete. It will be when we have either been resurrected in perfect, incorruptible, imperishable heavenly bodies, or instantly transformed to such. Our salvation is complete. Yet, for now we have this treasure in "earthen vessels", that is, our perishing, sinful flesh.

And you're right, Jesus clarified just how great the standard is for perfect obedience in thought, word and deed because the point is salvation is not possible with man, only with God.

Absolutely true. Our very existence both physically and spiritually a result of the work and benevolence of the Almighty Creator, who alone has the power to destroy both body and soul in hell. All the more reason to submit in reverence to His Holy commands.

If one is a born again, sealed believer, who has passed from death to life and been made a "new creation" in Christ, they are not under condemnation or the wrath of God. They are sealed by the Holy Spirit and they will be found in Him, never lost or cast out, and can absolutely know Jesus will raise them up at the "last day." God is never going to destroy His adopted children.
 
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zoidar

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That's why I asked. I wasn't sure. :) I do appreciate your responses as well. I know it can take some time to type things out.

:oldthumbsup:

Galatians 5:22-23

Faithfulness ;)


We agree and still disagree. I believe we choose to be obedient but we still owe our good works to God. Because God is the source of all good.
 
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amariselle

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:oldthumbsup:

Faithfulness ;)

"Fruits of the Spirit" which all true, born again, sealed believers have. :) He is the "guarantee" that we will inherit the Kingdom, and that we are the "purchased possession" of Christ (bought at a price)

We agree and still disagree. I believe we choose to be obedient but we still owe our good works to God. Because God is the source of all good.

I guess we don't disagree about good works or Who gets the glory for them, we seem to disagree on whether they play a part in saving us/keeping us saved.
 
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zoidar

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Okay, and I apologize that I misunderstood you. :)

No worries!

Yes, Jesus is Lord of Lord and King of Kings. His is the Name above all names. Honestly, I know He is my Lord, and I am beyond thankful, but even if no one wanted Him to be Lord, He still would be.

Philippians 2:
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Jesus is of course Lord of all. But he is not everyones Lord, meaningly as personal master.
 
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amariselle

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No worries!

Jesus is of course Lord of all. But he is not everyones Lord, meaningly as personal master.

He surely is Lord of all who are saved. What I was trying to say is, we don't make Him Lord, He simply is Lord.
 
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discipler7

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112358 said:
But modern churchianity is only interested in warm and fuzzy. They only want to hear about the love of God and nothing of His justice or wrath. They want their own standard of authority instead of His. They want Godly joy without Godly sorrow. They want eternal security without taking up their cross. They want their sinful lusts and desires along with the license their "grace" gives them to pursue those things. They don't want to hear that they can fall from grace. That it is possible to abandon Him who they first loved.
That's quite true but the OP is ...
Losing faith in "faith alone"

James 2:24: Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.
... which falsely teaches that a man is justified by works + faith.

Christian believers should have good works because their faith in Christ should produce the good works of love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.(GAL.5:22) Otherwise, they are false Christians/prophets or goats or tares/chaff.
....... But it is not their good works that justifies. It is their faith in Christ that justifies.

It is not what we do(= good works or obedience) as Christian believers that justifies. It is what Jesus Christ did for us on the Cross(= obediently shed His blood) that justifies.

We can never be righteous enough to be justified, no matter how much good works we do. Jesus Christ gave us His righteousness through our faith in Him so that we can be justified.

When we appear in front of God, we do not show Him our good works, in order to be justified. We show Him our faith in Christ Jesus = by hugging, thanking and worshipping Him.
 
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It makes absolute sense as we are dealing with YHWH and not human reason.


Give up because God is Sovereign of His own creation? It is not a matter of giving up on what God has provided, but giving up relying on ourselves and humbly serve Him. To rest in His gift of Grace and not rely on the world and our personal idols.


What I stated is God chooses. It's everywhere in the Bible. Noah, Abraham, Moses, David and the list goes on. Hebrews 11 gives a good run down. God even chose reluctant Jonah. God did not wait to see if Saul of Tarsus was going to turn another leaf. He chose Saul, confronted him and told him he was His chosen vessel to bring the Gospel to the Gentiles (Acts 9:15).



Actually no. See above. God truly chooses and even the apostles were chosen. 11 for His Grace and one for destruction (Judas) (John 6:70-71).

God chooses and does what He pleases, showing grace to some and hardening the hearts of others (Romans 9:18).

This is a central Biblical doctrine:

Isaiah 55: NASB

8For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the LORD.


9For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts than your thoughts.


10“For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven,
And do not return there without watering the earth
And making it bear and sprout,
And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater;


11So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth;
It will not return to Me empty,
Without accomplishing what I desire,
And without succeeding
in the matter for which I sent it.


Isaiah 45: NASB
9“Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker—
An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth!
Will the clay say to the potter, ‘What are you doing?’
Or the thing you are making
say, ‘He has no hands’?

10“Woe to him who says to a father, ‘What are you begetting?’
Or to a woman, ‘To what are you giving birth?’”


11Thus says the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker:
“Ask Me about the things to come concerning My sons,
And you shall commit to Me the work of My hands.


12“It is I who made the earth, and created man upon it.
I stretched out the heavens with My hands
And I ordained all their host.


13“I have aroused him in righteousness
And I will make all his ways smooth;
He will build My city and will let My exiles go free,
Without any payment or reward,” says the LORD of hosts.


Romans 9: NASB
6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.” 8That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants. 9For this is the word of promise: “AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON.” 10And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.” 13Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”

14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” 18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.



To coin a modern term "It ain't about us, it's about Him." Which if we are to put in more formal and reverent manner:

Soli Deo Gloria!

yeah man!

 
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