Losing faith in "faith alone"

[amariselle]

I'm very sorry you have gone through such hard times... I understand why you hold your position. I just tell you how I see it. I don't think we have to be perfect in obedience, I think we are allowed to fail, as long as we ask God for forgiveness and turn back to him. Part of being obedient is the part of turning to him for forgiveness when we fail, and also go back to walking in obedience. If we struggle with sin, it's just how it is. We are to pray to be set free, for as Christians we are not meant to be living under sin.

Many have been where I was, and they still are. Many do not have peace and assurance of their salvation in Christ. This is absolutely heartbreaking, and it is why I contend for the faith.

Yes, we do ask for forgiveness when we sin, but we also understand that we have a Great High Priest and Mediator who always makes intercession for us. We do not lose our salvation every time we sin.

 

[redleghunter]

It cracks me up when people say the sign gifts are happening everywhere but here. But its not funny because this is the stuff the secular world takes one look at before they summarily dismiss Christianity as a mythical fairy ta

I recently spoke with a Plymouth Brethern missionary who is deeply embedded in lands where if caught he would die or rot in prison. The PBs are staunch cessationist. He has had a change of heart seeing and witnessing what is going on in the Middle East.

 

[zoidar]

And? Jesus commends His sheep for their "good works". Also, notice that they didn't even realize they had done them unto Him. Certainly they were not looking to their "good works" to be saved.

I agree with you that we are not to look at our deeds to be saved. That is exactly how it is to be obedient. You obey Christ, not to be saved, but out of love.

 

[amariselle]

I agree with you that we are not to look at our deeds to be saved. That is exactly how it is to be obedient. You obey Christ, not to be saved, but out of love.

Agreed. And one who has been forgiven much, loves much.

 

[zoidar]

Many have been where I was, and they still are. Many do not have peace and assurance of their salvation in Christ. This is absolutely heartbreaking, and it is why I contend for the faith.

Yes, we do ask for forgiveness when we sin, but we also understand that we have a Great High Priest and Mediator who always makes intercession for us. We do not lose our salvation every time we sin.

That I will agree on!

 

[Albion]

I recently spoke with a Plymouth Brethern missionary who is deeply embedded in lands where if caught he would die or rot in prison. The PBs are staunch cessationist. He has had a change of heart seeing and witnessing what is going on in the Middle East.

I don't quite follow what you are referring to there. Is it about tongues or just about events in the Middle East? Whats the change of heart?

 

[Lady Bug]

Is it possible that there may be different categories of "works" in the Bible? There are the works of the Law of Moses, then there are the works referred to in James, but surely they can't be the same kinds of works? Does anyone know if the underlying Greek for the word "works" is any different than for the "works" described per the Law of Moses?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The problem is that "work out" literally means "work OUT" and not "work FOR". So I'm certainly not changing any wording whatsoever.

The verse literally says work OUT your salvation with fear and trembling. There's no translation that says work FOR your salvation. I can't find a single translation that even implies that.

You work OUT a math sum. You work FOR a paycheck. These are wholly two different things.

Reading both Arminian and Calvinist commentaries, I can't find one that disagrees with how I'm handling it - except one that wants to make 'salvation' in view here a temporal salvation from trial. (I can't agree with that one.) I'm aware that a Catholic reading would perhaps be more in line with yours, but also the definition of 'salvation' would need to be discussed. 'Salvation' is not a synonym for justification. Catholic theology does not treat these terms in the same way that Reformation theology does, and the nuances are important.

The Greek word used is katergazomai, which means to "carry out to the goal; carry out to the ultimate conclusion; carry out to its full perfection." There's literally no way I'm changing the meaning of any word here. I'm sticking to its plain meaning. Perhaps it would be helpful to state that in my view the ultimate goal of salvation in view is certainly perfection, but perfection is not required to be justified. So I don't deny holiness is something we should expect and want; and I don't claim that you cannot lose your salvation. My claim is that justification cannot be lost due to sin or a lack of perfection, but only possibly lost due to a lack of faith. Sanctification could, of course, be lost by sin - but it's not until you've struggled with an addiction like I have that you realise it's not liveable to have a theology that does not make these distinctions clear.

Your other verses quoted make a stronger and better case for your view, but I do not believe this one makes a strong case for your view at all.

I also want to add that work can follow after one receives a gift. For if you receive a car as a free gift, that does not mean you can run red lights, drink and drive, hit pedestrians, drive the wrong way over traffic spikes, hit a wall at 75mph, etc. You are not going to keep your car too long if you do such things. There is work of responsibility in owning certain things (even if they were given to you for free as a gift). God requires many things from us. We are bought and paid for with a price and we are not our own. We are supposed to be slaves to righteousness (according to Romans 6). We are supposed to offer our bodies as a willing sacrifice unto God (Which is our reasonable service).

 

[Lady Bug]

I think people are conflating the works of the Law of Moses with the works associated in the NT

 

[amariselle]

Is it possible that there may be different categories of "works" in the Bible? There are the works of the Law of Moses, then there are the works referred to in James, but surely they can't be the same kinds of works? Does anyone know if the underlying Greek for the word "works" is any different than for the "works" described per the Law of Moses?

We could look up and study the original Hebrew and Greek words for deeper study, however, no one has ever been saved by works, either in the OT or the NT.

 

[zoidar]

Is it possible that there may be different categories of "works" in the Bible? There are the works of the Law of Moses, then there are the works referred to in James, but surely they can't be the same kinds of works? Does anyone know if the underlying Greek for the word "works" is any different than for the "works" described per the Law of Moses?

It's also interesting when the Bible says Law, when is it the Mosaic Law and when is it the 10 commandments?

 

[amariselle]

It's also interesting when the Bible says Law, when is it the Mosaic Law and when is it the 10 commandments?

The 10 Commandments were part of the "Mosaic Law" as I understand it, hence they were called "the Law of Moses." (They were given by God to Moses on Mount Sinai.)

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Soooo on faith plus works, I'm thinking about those whom either die without works and those whom are incapable of works, perhaps were capable at one point, but because of circumstances beyond their control become incapable. I have in mind, at least a couple of groups, infants whom die in infancy, and people in rest homes, and then there are people born with handicaps, either mental or physical so severe that they may be so restricted by their physical constitution as to be incapacitated, in some cases confined to a bed. Why are these so infrequently considered? Out of sight out of mind?

 

[redleghunter]

I don't quite follow what you are referring to there. Is it about tongues or just about events in the Middle East? Whats the change of heart?

Visions and dreams leading to people proclaiming Christ and telling others. Mostly the boldness of the Gospel preached.

 

[Lady Bug]

We could look up and study the original Hebrew and Greek words for deeper study, however, no one has ever been saved by works, either in the OT or the NT.

I know

 

[Albion]

Visions and dreams leading to people proclaiming Christ and telling others. Mostly the boldness of the Gospel preached.

Thnx. It was the word cessationist that must have thrown me off.

 

[redleghunter]

Thnx. It was the word cessationist that must have thrown me off.

The missionary I spoke with on an entirely different subject (mission force protection) comes from a cessationist background (Plymouth Brethren). It took a lot of convincing is the point I am making.

 

[zoidar]

Soooo on faith plus works, I'm thinking about those whom either die without works and those whom are incapable of works, perhaps were capable at one point, but because of circumstances beyond their control become incapable. I have in mind, at least a couple of groups, infants whom die in infancy, and people in rest homes, and then there are people born with handicaps, either mental or physical so severe that they may be so restricted by their physical constitution as to be incapacitated, in some cases confined to a bed. Why are these so infrequently considered? Out of sight out of mind?

Of course God isn't asking something of someone that can't be done.

I come to think of the story with the woman who gave a penny in the chest. She gave all she had, and that was more than anyone else. Those who have been given much, more is being asked, and for those given little, much less is being asked.

 

[amariselle]

Galatians 3 is a wonderful chapter. It reminds us that the Gospel was preached to Abraham, and that he believed God and was counted righteous. This chapter also reminds us that the "promise" (that is the Gospel) was given 430 years before the Law, and that the Law does not cancel the "promise."

Yet, so many would seek to be justified by the Law, when the Law was never given to save, but only as a "school master" to bring us to Christ.

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

[Afra]

Many have been where I was, and they still are. Many do not have peace and assurance of their salvation in Christ. This is absolutely heartbreaking, and it is why I contend for the faith.

Yes, we do ask for forgiveness when we sin, but we also understand that we have a Great High Priest and Mediator who always makes intercession for us. We do not lose our salvation every time we sin.

I am not aware of any churches that teach that a person loses his salvation every time he sins. What churches teach that? Heck, if that were the case practically every Christian would lose salvation every day.