Los Angeles is shutting down its largest natural gas power plant — and replacing it with an unproven hydrogen project

[Whyayeman]

See the price of a vehicle today? Used to be able to get one easy for $500.00 running good, $5000 new. Now tires cost that much !
Electricity, gas, gasoline, houses, way way way up, out of reach for 60% of the population by some reports;

Is Capitalism Killing America?

www.gsb.stanford.edu

"In Capitalists Arise!, Georgescu shows

how these issues are impacting the American public.

Nearly 60% of American households are technically insolvent and adding to their debt loads each year.

In addition, income inequality in the U.S. is reaching new peaks: The top layer of earners now claim a larger portion of the nation’s income than ever before — more even than the peak in 1927, just two years before the onset of the Great Depression."

That is a bit off-topic.

If hydrogen cell manufacturers are egregiously over-pricing their product there is an opportunity for rivals to under-cut them. That is one way competition works.

Are you suggesting that there only one brand of hydrogen fuel cell available?

 

[Whyayeman]

Fuel cells could already produce virtually unlimited electricity for under 5 cents per kwh (maybe less than a penny / kwh) by 2002, yet the knowledge of it was quashed, as were the companies that were willing to make it so.

I would love to know more about this miracle machine. I have searched the internet without success. I suppose if production was somehow suppressed the oil and gas producers would be the ones behind it. Now would be a good time to profit from mass production.

(What was the Popular Science article? A citation would be helpful.)

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Wouldn't it be simpler to just build a solar power plant or solar farm? Some solar plants can produce power even at night. It also wouldn't be as complicated or involve as much efficiency loseses.

If LA already has a land shortage problem (so much so, that you have full-time employed people who are technically homeless because space is at such a premium that a modest house can run you a million dollars), do you think something like this is feasible?

A quick rundown of this German solar park you're seeing:
It covers an area of 209 hectares (equiv 516 acres). Around 465,000 solar modules with a specific capacity of about 390 Wp installed. The solar park will produce around 180 million kilowatt hours (kWh) of electricity annually. It will thus be able to supply around 50,000 households with environmentally friendly energy.

Given that Los Angeles has 1.4 million households (and not 50,000).... Is there 14,000 acres of free land in or around LA were they'd be able to install the solar park?

 

[FireDragon76]

If LA already has a land shortage problem (so much so, that you have full-time employed people who are technically homeless because space is at such a premium that a modest house can run you a million dollars), do you think something like this is feasible?

View attachment 337642

A quick rundown of this German solar park you're seeing:
It covers an area of 209 hectares (equiv 516 acres). Around 465,000 solar modules with a specific capacity of about 390 Wp installed. The solar park will produce around 180 million kilowatt hours (kWh) of electricity annually. It will thus be able to supply around 50,000 households with environmentally friendly energy.

Given that Los Angeles has 1.4 million households (and not 50,000).... Is there 14,000 acres of free land in or around LA were they'd be able to install the solar park?

A solar thermal reactor or collector wouldn't necessarily take up as much space as solar panels. It could also be placed in an area that wouldn't have alot of people, such as a desert.

Concentrated solar power - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Bradskii]

The fuel would be produced from water, with renewable electricity — from solar panels or wind turbines, for instance — splitting H2O molecules into hydrogen and oxygen atoms.

This I don't get. You start with electricity from solar or wind, use that to make hydrogen and then burn that to heat water and produce steam which drives a turbine which produces...what you had to start with.

There'll be efficiency losses all through the system, so surely you must have less power at the end of the process than than you did at the beginning. The only benefit I can see is that you could store the hydrogen to use as needed. But is that good enough reason to change to technology that doesn't seem to be ready?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

A solar thermal reactor or collector wouldn't necessarily take up as much space as solar panels. It could also be placed in an area that wouldn't have alot of people, such as a desert.

Concentrated solar power - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Wouldn't it be easier and more space (and cost) efficient to just leverage nuclear energy? (which also has a lower carbon footprint)

For anyone who's serious about eliminating fossil fuels, nuclear energy has to be part of the conversation. It's the only scalable stop-gap that's feasible while we're waiting for the other forms of energy to be refined and perfected.

 

[Pommer]

Wouldn't it be easier and more space (and cost) efficient to just leverage nuclear energy? (which also has a lower carbon footprint)

For anyone who's serious about eliminating fossil fuels, nuclear energy has to be part of the conversation. It's the only scalable stop-gap that's feasible while we're waiting for the other forms of energy to be refined and perfected.

They haven’t found a permanent nuclear-power-waste containment site yet. After 70 years of hunting for one. Ramping up on $32B+ nuclear power plants before that issue is settled seems wildly optimistic.

 

[FireDragon76]

They haven’t found a permanent nuclear-power-waste containment site yet. After 70 years of hunting for one. Ramping up on $32B+ nuclear power plants before that issue is settled seems wildly optimistic.

France uses breeder reactors and therefore has alot less nuclear waste.

 

[Whyayeman]

, with some kind of membrane through which hydrogen molecules pass and produce voltage.

It will not a 'miracle' as soon as I have some explanation of the science behind it - and I cannot find anything. I think maybe the claims for it are exaggerated.

 

[Whyayeman]

If LA already has a land shortage problem (so much so, that you have full-time employed people who are technically homeless because space is at such a premium that a modest house can run you a million dollars), do you think something like this is feasible?

View attachment 337642

A quick rundown of this German solar park you're seeing:
It covers an area of 209 hectares (equiv 516 acres). Around 465,000 solar modules with a specific capacity of about 390 Wp installed. The solar park will produce around 180 million kilowatt hours (kWh) of electricity annually. It will thus be able to supply around 50,000 households with environmentally friendly energy.

Given that Los Angeles has 1.4 million households (and not 50,000).... Is there 14,000 acres of free land in or around LA were they'd be able to install the solar park?

I don't think anybody is seriously urging solar power as the only means of producing electricity. It is an efficient way to generate the stuff but not the only one.

One of the big advantages is that transport costs are so low. Once the cabling is in place there is only the loss of voltage. Thus solar panels need not be close to the users. California is a big place. Arizona and Nevada have quite a lot of land unusable for much and loads of sunshine.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I don't think anybody is seriously urging solar power as the only means of producing electricity. It is an efficient way to generate the stuff but not the only one.

One of the big advantages is that transport costs are so low. Once the cabling is in place there is only the loss of voltage. Thus solar panels need not be close to the users. California is a big place. Arizona and Nevada have quite a lot of land unusable for much and loads of sunshine.

California is a big place, but not all of it is in a prime location for harnessing solar energy.

Not to mention, if they were to use some of Arizona and Nevada's land for solar power generation for California, what are those two states going to use when they decide to cutover?

Given that California is an ocean adjacent state (and one of the few in the US that actually has good potential to use tidal power)

Seems like if they're looking for a green alternative supplemental source (and are already short on land), pursuing tidal would be a better option for them if they're hesitant about nuclear rather than trying to use neighboring states' land.

 

[Whyayeman]

‘Monstrosities in the farmland’: how giant warehouses transformed a California town

Ontario was once at the center of the dairy industry. Now it’s home to Amazon’s largest warehouse and many others – with dangerous consequences

www.theguardian.com

(In california)
"It seems like (as it is?) no matter how hard we work, we can't beat the system"

"council members have accepted thousands of dollars in donations from warehouse developers and other interests. A tally by Ian Ragen, a student at Pitzer college, found that city council members received at least $160,000 in campaign contributions from warehouse developers and related interests in 2020. Alan Wapner, the mayor pro tem, received $52,000 in donations from warehousing interests such as commercial real estate firms and developers, and additional donations from a local farming family that owned much of the land under the South Ontario Logistics Center.

Members of the city council did not respond to specific queries about donations.

Residents are left with the impression that “they’re selling our community to these developers”, said May. “It seems like no matter how hard we work, we can’t beat the system.”"

Perhaps this deserves a thread of it own. I can't see the relevance to natural gas.

 

[Whyayeman]

California is a big place, but not all of it is in a prime location for harnessing solar energy.

Of course not. Once again, electricity is the most easily transported form of energy. It just takes cables and pylons. Once in place they work for a century or more with minimal maintenance.

Arizona and Nevada have land that is good for nothing else - and lots of sunshine. what's not to like?

 

[USincognito]

See the price of a vehicle today? Used to be able to get one easy for $500.00 running good, $5000 new.

Maybe in 1975.

 

[Bradskii]

California is a big place, but not all of it is in a prime location for harnessing solar energy.

Prime location is on the roof of your house. Make it a condition that any new house or commercial building must have X kWh worth of solar panels installed. Reduce the number of hoops you have to jump through to have them installed. Offer interest free loans for the installation. Offer incentives to electrical contractors to install them.

And I don't know why, but the cost of a domestic installation in the US is about 3x that in Australia. Something must be done about that.

 

[Bradskii]

Either the price in Australia will increase dramatically, or in the usa soon will double again....

Price of what? Power or panels? Power is increasing here and the price of solar installations are falling. My 6kW system cost less than US$3k installed. As I write this, not only is everything running off the solar, I am actually selling excess power back to the power company.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Prime location is on the roof of your house. Make it a condition that any new house or commercial building must have X kWh worth of solar panels installed. Reduce the number of hoops you have to jump through to have them installed. Offer interest free loans for the installation. Offer incentives to electrical contractors to install them.

And I don't know why, but the cost of a domestic installation in the US is about 3x that in Australia. Something must be done about that.

It's my understanding that some of the barriers (specifically in California) are of the red tape variety.

I forget who the comedian was (obviously one who lived in Cali) doing a bit about how much of a pain it was to get solar installed on his outbuilding. A dozen different permits and fees, multiple visits by county compliance officers. Local requirements saying that the work had to be formed by Union contractors (and the particular local Union happened to be on strike at the time). "Permit A" is only good for 60-days, and is a prerequisite for Permit B, but the Permit B people can't get there for 90 days. That sorta thing.

I imagine there may have been some exaggeration for comedic effect, but what was being described was a 2-year headache of trying to get all the ducks in a row. Based on other things I've heard about California (and the regulatory obstacle courses they have for a lot of things), it sounds like a lot of things are more of a hassle there.

I have family up in Canada (and for anyone that knows, Canada isn't exactly "light" in terms of their regulatory frameworks), and they installed some supplemental solar and it sounds like even the Canadian process is less painful than the California process for doing it.

 

[Bradskii]

It's my understanding that some of the barriers (specifically in California) are of the red tape variety.

I forget who the comedian was (obviously one who lived in Cali) doing a bit about how much of a pain it was to get solar installed on his outbuilding. A dozen different permits and fees, multiple visits by county compliance officers. Local requirements saying that the work had to be formed by Union contractors (and the particular local Union happened to be on strike at the time). "Permit A" is only good for 60-days, and is a prerequisite for Permit B, but the Permit B people can't get there for 90 days. That sorta thing.

I imagine there may have been some exaggeration for comedic effect, but what was being described was a 2-year headache of trying to get all the ducks in a row. Based on other things I've heard about California (and the regulatory obstacle courses they have for a lot of things), it sounds like a lot of things are more of a hassle there.

I have family up in Canada (and for anyone that knows, Canada isn't exactly "light" in terms of their regulatory frameworks), and they installed some supplemental solar and it sounds like even the Canadian process is less painful than the California process for doing it.

This is exactly what I've read about the differences between the US and Oz in regards to solar. I didn't even need local council permission. No permits, no fees, no delays. Just get some quotes (and there are websites specifically set up to help you make a selection), make your selection and they'll install within a week in less than a day. I see solar being installed everywhere. It won't be long before it's considered unusual not to have it.

 

[essentialsaltes]

The Los Angeles City Council voted unanimously Wednesday to move forward with an $800-million plan to convert the city’s largest gas-fired power plant to green hydrogen — a first-of-its-kind project that was hailed by supporters as an important step to solve the climate crisis but slammed by critics as a greenwashing boondoggle that will harm vulnerable communities.
DWP plans to install turbines capable of burning significant quantities of hydrogen, which has never been done before on such a large scale. The fuel would be produced from water, with renewable electricity — from solar panels or wind turbines, for instance — splitting H2O molecules into hydrogen and oxygen atoms. [The] initial fuel mix at Scattergood might include more planet-warming natural gas than hydrogen.

The conversion of Scattergood to hydrogen is one element of the California plan for hydrogen, which has recently received federal funds, as part of President Biden's "$7-billion federal hydrogen hub grant program geared toward accelerating the nation’s clean energy efforts and ambitious climate targets."

The Golden State will receive up to $1.2 billion to build or expand on hydrogen projects that will help power public transportation, port operations and heavy-duty transport — sectors known to be major contributors to greenhouse gas emissions and air pollution in the state.

Other awardees include regional hydrogen hubs along the Gulf Coast and in the Pacific Northwest, the Midwest, the Mid-Atlantic region, Appalachia and the heartland states of Minnesota, North Dakota and South Dakota. The hubs collectively span 16 states across the country.

The process of making hydrogen is energy [and water] intensive, and skeptics say it could ultimately emit more planet-warming carbon.

Just 15 years ago, Los Angeles was about 50% dependent on coal power; next year, it will have zero coal in its portfolio, said Aram Benyamin, DWP’s chief operating officer.

Los Angeles area ports will also use the hydrogen hub to help electrify equipment and reduce smog and carbon pollution from cargo handling equipment, and in later phases, trucks and ships, according to Port of Los Angeles Executive Director Gene Seroka.

 

[Landon Caeli]

SoCal Edison has built lots of solar farms. A small-time municipality like LADWP would be wise to simply buy power from the much more advanced, and much larger SoCal Edison.

...Maybe even spearhead some projects together, with shared rights. Putting their knowledge together, to make wiser decisions.