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Lordship Salvation

Tree of Life

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I know that one can be a true believer and then become an unbeliever. My older brother is a prime example of that. He went from textbook Christian to textbook atheist. But what's interesting is he's still always talking about God. I get the feeling he's battling the Holy Spirit who's continually convicting him. In a way it seems that he never really completely let go. Or rather that the Lord never let go of him.

Perhaps you do not know that he is an unbeliever. True believers can backslide and fall into superficial unbelief for long periods of time.
 
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It's useful to make these distinctions. I think that the concept of salvation is the broadest concept. Salvation includes justification, sanctification, and glorification. We make a huge mistake when we equate salvation with just one of its parts. So when you hear "Lordship Salvation" you might think that it means "Lordship justification" - which it does not.

We are justified - accepted by God and forgiven for all of our sins - based on the work of Christ alone. Our justification is not at all based upon our sanctification or our commitment to Jesus.

But God sanctifies all whom he justifies. God doesn't justify some people who he never sanctifies and ultimately glorifies. So when we say "Lordship salvation", we are trying to say that all who are justified also go on to be sanctified. If the sanctification never happens, then we should doubt that we are justified because they always go together. Both are aspects of the broader concept of salvation.

A thing is though how one views sanctification. If they view it as equaling being a fully dedicated disciple, then I see that as being a problem. Let's say there's a Christian who's "living like the devil" aka the "carnal Christian". But if he wasn't saved, he'd be in a much worse state, his sins would be far more severe and numerous. That even though he doesn't seem sanctified in the eyes of fellow Christians, he's actually being held back from sin more than they realize.
 
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Tree of Life

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A thing is though how one views sanctification. If they view it as equaling being a fully dedicated disciple, then I see that as being a problem. Let's say there's a Christian who's "living like the devil" aka the "carnal Christian". But if he wasn't saved, he'd be in a much worse state, his sins would be far more severe and numerous. That even though he doesn't seem sanctified in the eyes of fellow Christians, he's actually being held back from sin more than they realize.

What you describe is possible. It's possible for regenerate, saved people to seriously backslide for long periods of time. LS does not have any problem with this possibility.

From the vantage of LS, we should not say that a backsliding or carnal Christian is certainly unsaved. But we might doubt whether they are saved and say that we are not sure that they are saved. However, if they are genuinely saved then we have confidence that their carnality and backsliding will eventually be overcome by Jesus because "the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining."
 
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Perhaps you do not know that he is an unbeliever. True believers can backslide and fall into superficial unbelief for long periods of time.

Well I can't know his heart, but he goes out of his way to be a diehard atheist. And he's been at it for 30+ years.

Now when it comes to a cousin of mine who's like a brother, that was the case with him. He declared that he was no longer a Christian and stuck with that for a few years, but then he came back.
 
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What you describe is possible. It's possible for regenerate, saved people to seriously backslide for long periods of time. LS does not have any problem with this possibility.

From the vantage of LS, we should not say that a backsliding or carnal Christian is certainly unsaved. But we might doubt whether they are saved and say that we are not sure that they are saved. However, if they are genuinely saved then we have confidence that their carnality and backsliding will eventually be overcome by Jesus because "the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining."

I recently came back from being backslidden for a few years. And when I was in an ER thinking I was going to have a heart attack, I questioned whether I was saved. But I was basing that on my relationship with the Lord rather than His relationship with me. And the reason for that is I had become out of touch. Looking back I have no doubt I was still saved. And that while I was being ungodly to a certain degree, there were lines that I would have never crossed because I still had an indwelling of the Holy Spirit. but compared to then and now, to me there wasn't much sanctification that was evident in my life, but I believe it was still at work. I don't think that if I had continued that way the rest of my life I would not have salvation.
 
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Tree of Life

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I recently came back from being backslidden for a few years. And when I was in an ER thinking I was going to have a heart attack, I questioned whether I was saved. But I was basing that on my relationship with the Lord rather than His relationship with me. And the reason for that is I had become out of touch. Looking back I have no doubt I was still saved. And that while I was being ungodly to a certain degree, there were lines that I would have never crossed because I still had an indwelling of the Holy Spirit. but compared to then and now, to me there wasn't much sanctification that was evident in my life, but I believe it was still at work.

This is very consistent with the best of LS theologians. John Calvin and the Westminster Standards both say that this is possible for any Christian.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I'm struggling to understand this concept. Basically as I understand it so far, salvation entails commitment, obedience and perseverance. But it has been criticized as teaching works based / performance based salvation.

And it's hard for me to get how one can describe it in a plain concise way that excludes performance. One of it's best known teachers, has said point blank that if his salvation was up to him in any way, he would not have it. So it's basically at this time clear as mud to me.

It's a fundamental question of what role we, if any, play in our salvation; as well as how we are defining salvation.

The doctrine of Justification by grace alone through faith on Christ's account alone, the cornerstone of the Protestant Reformation, means that we are nothing more than passive recipients.

We don't do anything, not even in saying "yes" to God.

Which is why us Lutherans speak of faith as "extra nos", Latin for "from outside ourselves". Faith is a gift (as Ephesians 2:8 says) and thus faith comes from outside of ourselves, given to us as pure grace, and it is this faith through which we are justified. Therefore we are, as Luther put it, nothing more than a beggar before God. We have nothing, absolutely nothing; we are wholly dependent upon God's mercy to give us everything for our salvation.

So from that perspective, turning human performance or effort into a meritorious work undermines this most elementary doctrine of faith.

The role of good works, the role of our cooperation with God's grace, isn't to our justification before God; it is rather about our living out our faith in the world. It is not a justification Coram Deo (justification before God) but a justification Coram Mundo (justification before the world). That is, e.g., to feed my hungry neighbor, because my hungry neighbor is hungry and needs food, and it is good and right that they be fed.

We are righteous before God solely by the received, passive righteousness given to us as pure grace--the imputed alien righteousness of Jesus Christ Himself. Which God appropriates to us by His grace, through faith, which is itself God's grace at work through His Means of Grace.

This is the only righteousness we have or can have before God in this life; because of the total inability of man to be righteous in accordance with the just and right commands of God in His Law; indeed sinful man before the Law is reckoned a sinner and condemned as such. And therefore any attempt to be righteous in accordance with the Law only reveals us to be sinners, and so the harder we try to be faithful to God's command, the greater our sin. Not because the Law is sin, but because the Law is a light and a magnifying glass exposing us to be the sinners we already are. Therefore no amount of striving to be righteous can amount in righteousness; there is only the unrighteousness of our sin exposed and laid bare.

Which is why it is only the imputed righteousness of Jesus that can make us righteous before God, since it is not based upon our works, our efforts, our obedience; but rather it is Christ's works, Christ's obedience. It is Christ's righteousness given to us as pure grace; and that is what makes it a passive righteousness, a righteousness received by us, passive, empty-handed and naked beggars.

Now then, does the justified person therefore have liberty to live in disobedience? Absolutely not. For we who belong to Christ and have been freely justified by God's grace are to walk in the new obedience. But this is living out our faith, this is living out our vocation, this is the good works for which we were created of Ephesians 2:10. Such good works are not for our justification before God, but again. Rather it is a faithfulness before the world, for the good and sake of our neighbor.

God isn't the One who needs our good works, it is our neighbor who needs them.

So then there is what we have received as pure gift, apart from ourselves, wholly by grace; and this is what makes us right before and with God; and it is this which we cleave to and place our full confidence in.

And there is the reality of our continued struggle, the old man and the new, as we carry our cross of discipleship. And in this struggle the Holy Spirit is always at work in us, and we have the faithful promises of God that we are being sanctified, being conformed to the image of Christ, and that the good work which was began in us shall continue until the day of Christ's glorious return. It is this that we, therefore, "work out our salvation in fear and trembling", as we carry our cross as disciples. Not as though our striving and efforts add to what Christ has done and which we have received as pure grace--that is sufficient, that is everything, and it is done already, for you and for me. But now in the reality of that, we live this truth and hope and faith into the world with love. And we strive against the flesh, drowning it in repentance, and being renewed day by day by God's mercy.

But this is so vitally important, it is THE distinction that must be made. That distinction which is between Law and Gospel. The Law says, "Do this" but it is never done; but the Gospel says "trust this" and it is done already.

The Law commands, it demands, and it is unforgiving. The Law simply says what is right. The Law says "Love your neighbor as yourself"; that is the command, and it says what it says and means what it means. And neither you nor I satisfy its just demand. We do not love our neighbor as ourselves. We don't love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, strength, and mind. The Law commands, but then we don't do it. Even when we try to do it, we fail.

The Gospel is the already finished work and righteousness of Jesus, and that is now ours by grace. It is done and finished, and it is yours and mine, we can therefore trust it, believe it, have full confidence in it.

That which is commanded of you is Law.
That which is freely given and promised to you is Gospel.

The Law cannot justify you.

Only the Gospel can justify you, because it is Christ's own righteousness, which God makes yours through faith by His grace alone.

Maintain this essential distinction and dichotomy. Nearly all error arises when the distinction is eroded or ignored. And men begin treating the Law as Gospel, or the Gospel as Law. They therefore forget the harshness of the Law, or they forget the sweetness of the Gospel. And what arises in man from this confusion is either despair or hubris; and both are deadly weeds which, given opportunity, would choke out faith.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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chilehed

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I'm struggling to understand this concept. Basically as I understand it so far, salvation entails commitment, obedience and perseverance.
Yep, it's kinda hard to avoid the fact that we're called to obey God.

But it has been criticized as teaching works based / performance based salvation.
Some people don't like obedience, and come up with all sorts of rationalizations to avoid it.
 
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d taylor

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I haven't read it but I'm aware of Zane Hodges. There's a youtube video of him giving a lecture that I haven't gotten around to watching. When it comes to Lordship Salvation vs Free Grace, the two main contenders seem to be John MacArthur vs Zane Hodges. I was told by a Bible teacher I corresponded with to read MacArthur's The Gospel According to Jesus to see why Hodges is being heretical (in his opinion). The confusing thing is I have heard both him and MacArthur say that Justification is through faith alone (or that's how I interpreted it).

But the difference is, how they define faith.

Zane faith is asset (intellectual) that all faith is being convinced that a proposition is true.
Saving Faith and Intellectual Assent: An Ongoing Debate – Grace Evangelical Society


Where as MacArthur faith is belief but it also contains obedience, and other actions a person may do etc..
 
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Tree of Life

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But the difference is, how they define faith.

Zane faith is asset (intellectual) that all faith is being convinced that a proposition is true.

Where as MacArthur faith is belief but it also contains obedience, and other actions a person may do etc..

Indeed. For some people their faith is mere words. They merely intellectually agree to a certain idea, but that idea makes no difference in their lives. The Bible does not place a high value on that kind of faith. James asks: "Can that faith save?" His answer is "no".
 
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aiki

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There is a confusion some Christians have about the difference between inevitable and necessary when it comes to good works. For the one who is genuinely born-again, good works are inevitable - if he has been discipled, and has matured spiritually, and not been seriously derailed by a besetting sin or false teaching. The inevitability of good works, however, is not tantamount to good works being necessary to spiritual living.

An apple tree, if it is healthy, well-nourished, and sufficiently mature, will produce apples. Under these conditions, it is inevitable that apples will result. But bearings apples isn't, therefore, necessary to the tree being an apple tree. Apples or no, an apple tree is an apple tree. There is no hope at all of the tree bearing apples unless this is so. Thus, it is a mistake to say that the inevitability of apples growing on an apple tree are necessary to it being an apple tree.

Likewise, for the genuinely saved person, spiritual fruit is inevitable (under permitting conditions), but this by no means indicates that such fruit is therefore necessary. Spiritual fruit is the consequence, not the means, of a born-again believer's salvation.
 
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d taylor

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Indeed. For some people their faith is mere words. They merely intellectually agree to a certain idea, but that idea makes no difference in their lives. The Bible does not place a high value on that kind of faith. James asks: "Can that faith save?" His answer is "no".

I will reply to you post, because not sure if you thought i was agreeing that faith is more than believing. If you thought that then you misunderstood my position.

I am in the free grace belief camp, that faith is simply believing the promise of God.

That anyone who believes that Jesus is the promised Messiah from the prophecies of The Tanakh and trust in The Messiah for the free gift of Eternal Life receives Eternal Life never to lose it.

No other action is require and this receiving of Gods free gift of Eternal Life, happens in a moment of time, the time it takes for a person to understand and believe how to receive Eternal Life. Which can be a matter a seconds to minutes. But it does not require repentance or a life time of works of obedience.
 
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Tree of Life

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I will reply to you post, because not sure if you thought i was agreeing that faith is more than believing. If you thought that then you misunderstood my position.

I am in the free grace belief camp, that faith is simply believing the promise of God.

That anyone who believes that Jesus is the promised Messiah from the prophecies of The Tanakh and trust in The Messiah for the free gift of Eternal Life receives Eternal Life never to lose it.

No other action is require and this receiving of Gods free gift of Eternal Life, happens in a moment of time, the time it takes for a person to understand and believe how to receive Eternal Life. Which can be a matter a seconds to minutes. But it does not require repentance or a life time of works of obedience.

Oh. That's very strange. Where did you get that from?
 
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d taylor

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Oh. That's very strange. Where did you get that from?

The Bible, specifically where in The Bible, The Gospel of John. The only book of the Bible whose stated purpose for being written. Is to tell people how to have life (eternal life). John 20:30, 31
 
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Kenny'sID

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Those who try to make us feel guilty for doing necessary works or bearing the necessaary fruit, are the ones who don't want to do them. They want to live as they like, and claim once they simply claim to have faith, that is all that is needed, forever, and they need not show their faith by doing the will of God.

Those are the selfish among us that want it their way and not Gods way, so they follow a way that someone created for them specifically, a false way, and all for the age old reason...it's just easier. And you can be sure they will cling to their delusion until the day comes when it's too late to see the truth. That is evidenced right here on these boards often where they start threads often in order to justify their belief, and we can put the biblical truth right in front of them, but they will not be able to see it.

Please don't be decieved by these people.
 
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Mark Quayle

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I'm struggling to understand this concept. Basically as I understand it so far, salvation entails commitment, obedience and perseverance. But it has been criticized as teaching works based / performance based salvation.

And it's hard for me to get how one can describe it in a plain concise way that excludes performance. One of it's best known teachers, has said point blank that if his salvation was up to him in any way, he would not have it. So it's basically at this time clear as mud to me.
The principles by the which the gospel operates --the work of God in a person and the release from the slavery to sin-- are the same principles by which the regenerated continue to put the death the old man. So it is also with the principle of agreement with God, hatred for sin, desire for holiness. The radical change from death to life that is part of the gospel may overshadow the works that necessarily result from the Spirit of God indwelling the believer, but it does not undo it. If a person has no works, he has no faith.

It is a human thing to try to assess the whole matter and draw conclusions, such as is done by those who want to claim OSAS means no works necessary. It is easy to say, if works will happen automatically by the regenerated mind and heart, why bother paying it any attention --after all, it automatic means no effort required, no?

Well, that is dead wrong. God uses means to do what we would consider erstwhile 'automatic', i.e. this is how God does it --by our obedience. It WILL happen, and this is how.

I would add, too, when works are required of the regenerate believer, he WANTS to do what God wants, or he is miserable (or intellectually and emotionally disjointed) until he obeys.
 
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Aussie Pete

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I'm struggling to understand this concept. Basically as I understand it so far, salvation entails commitment, obedience and perseverance. But it has been criticized as teaching works based / performance based salvation.

And it's hard for me to get how one can describe it in a plain concise way that excludes performance. One of it's best known teachers, has said point blank that if his salvation was up to him in any way, he would not have it. So it's basically at this time clear as mud to me.
The confusion arises because of the definition of salvation. There are two aspects. The first is the initial, born again experience. The second is the ongoing "salvation of the soul". This entails obedience to the revelation that is received progressively and includes the renewing of the mind. "Salvation" in this sense is better understood as "deliverance." Is it possible to be born again and yet not experience the "salvation of the soul"? Yes, it is. It does not condemn people to eternal separation from God but it does that they will miss out on eternal rewards in the Kingdom of God.

Something else to consider. The progressive salvation is still by grace. We grow in Christ by what we lose, not by what we gain. If we are born again, we are already complete in Christ. We just don't know who we are and what we have at first. This is what it means to carry the cross daily. To be effective as Kingdom Christians, we must allow God to rid us of selfish ambition, self will, self reliance and independence. There is a way that seems right to a man, but it is not God's way and it leads us astray.

An example may help. Just after my marriage broke up, I was invited to my son's 6th birthday party. I said that I would go. Why not? I would take any excuse to see my kids at that time. The Lord told me not to go. I had to tell my ex that I was not going. It was one of the hardest decisions I've ever had to make. Yet afterwards, I had great peace. About 18 years later, I discovered that the Lord knew what He was doing. The party was a disaster. In the state I was in, I most likely would have said things that I would have bitterly regretted.

Each day we will face choices that either weaken or reinforce self will. The people who make the most progress put God's will above their own will. All we are required to do is choose. God's grace in Christ enables us to obey.
 
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PaulCyp1

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Some fundamentalist Protestant denominations accuse the Catholic Church of teaching that salvation can be earned through works. Which demonstrates nothing except their total ignorance of Catholicism. The Catholic Church has consistently taught for 2,000 years that "salvation is a free gift of God that cannot be earned or merited". However, salvation and works are related. One who is truly saved is transformed, learns to love and care for others, to feed the hungry, give shelter to the homeless, etc. So, works are a result of salvation. Someone who claims to be saved, but doesn't care for other beloved children of God who are in need, is deluding themselves.
 
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Albion

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Some fundamentalist Protestant denominations accuse the Catholic Church of teaching that salvation can be earned through works. Which demonstrates nothing except their total ignorance of Catholicism. The Catholic Church has consistently taught for 2,000 years that "salvation is a free gift of God that cannot be earned or merited". However, salvation and works are related.
One who is truly saved is transformed, learns to love and care for others, to feed the hungry, give shelter to the homeless, etc.
So, works are a result of salvation. Someone who claims to be saved, but doesn't care for other beloved children of God who are in need, is deluding themselves.
What you've explained is not actually what your church teaches. It does not deny the need for Faith, nor does it deny that Faith is a gift, but it certainly does insist that the good works which come from Faith earn merit in God's eyes and therefore are part of what is needed for salvation, along with Faith.

In fact, the most popular POV among Catholics today, backed by the statements of two recent popes, seems to be that even those pagans who never heard of Jesus or the Gospel have a chance to be saved without Faith...so long as they've lived a good life according to their own religion. So that would be salvation without Faith but because of Works.
 
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