Lord's Supper - Wine or Grape Juice?

EastCoastRemnant said:

Hardly, but thanx for the insightful response as usual...

Click to expand...

Only those who are dead against alcohol state what you did. Alcohol is ok if used moderately. Wine, that is, alcoholic, full bodied wine, was part of the staple diet of the time of Jesus.

1stcenturylady said:

Maybe in Ireland, but these were Jews. They have a totally different mind-set.

Click to expand...

Yea, they LOVED their wine!

Antig said:

Na. Wine was wine. Alcoholic. Full strength. This is why it was warned not to be a drunk etc.

Can you imagine wedding guests asking for non alcoholic wine from Jesus?

Click to expand...

LOL!! If you want to change history and the Hebrew language, and Hebrew laws--by all means, go right ahead. If it is accuracy you want then I suggest a little bit more research. Hebrew is a complicated language and there are several words for wine. Jesus was first and foremost a Jew, though the Jewish culture did have a large Greek influence and Roman---Jewish laws and language were predominant.
For those interested in real Jewish thought it is best to go to a Jewish source.

The Rabies had many rules on just about everything:

"It is customary to mix it in a ratio of one part wine to three parts water"
Wine is called "yayin" because it brings lamentation and wailing ("yelalah" and "wai") into the world, and "tirosh" because one that drinks it habitually is certain to become poor ( ). R. Kahana said the latter term is written sometimes , and sometimes ; that means, if drunk in moderation it gives leadership ( = "head"); if drunk in excess it leads to poverty (Yoma 76b). "Tirosh" includes all kinds of sweet juices and must, and does not include fermented wine (Tosef., Ned. iv. 3). "Yayin" is to be distinguished from "shekar"; the former is diluted with water ("mazug"); the latter is undiluted ("yayin ḥai"; Num. R. x. 8; comp. Sifre, Num. 23). In Talmudic usage "shekar" means "mead," or "beer," and according to R. Papa, it denotes drinking to satiety and intoxication (Suk. 49b).
Fresh wine before fermenting was called "yayin mi-gat" (wine of the vat; Sanh. 70a). The ordinary wine was of the current vintage. The vintage of the previous year was called "yayin yashan" (old wine). The third year's vintage was "yayin meyushshan" (very old wine).
WINE - JewishEncyclopedia.com

"The following rules apply to a person who has drunk a revi'it (approximately 3 oz.) or more of wine – or other alcoholic beverages that have a similar effect – and is still feeling the effect:

1) He may not pray.11

2) He may not render a halachic ruling.12

3) If he is a kohen, he may not administer the priestly blessing.13"

The Torah Perspective on Alcohol Consumption - Parshat Naso

For Priests:
Lev_10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations


People reading about strong drink in the bible assume it means hard liquor. It is very negative towards strong drink, but favorable to wine. --Hard liquor as we know it, did not exist in Ancient times. Distillation did not begin until at least the first century. And it did not begin with the Jews. Jews were not permitted to even touch a container of Gentile wine.

Distillation was known in the ancient Indian subcontinent, evident from baked clay retorts and receivers found at Taxila and Charsadda in modern Pakistan, dating back to the early centuries of the Common Era. These "Gandhara stills" were only capable of producing very weak liquor, as there was no efficient means of collecting the vapors at low heat.[5]
Evidence of distillation also comes from alchemists working in Alexandria, Roman Egypt, in the 1st century.[6] Distilled water has been known since at least c. 200, when Alexander of Aphrodisias described the process.[7][8] Work on distilling other liquids continued in early Byzantine Egypt, under Zosimus of Panopolis in the 3rd century. Distillation in China could have begun during the Eastern Han dynasty (1st–2nd centuries), but the distillation of beverages began in the Jin (12th–13th centuries) and Southern Song (10th–13th centuries) dynasties according to archaeological evidence.[9]
Distillation - Wikipedia

Reg, full strength wine was watered down by 1 part wine to 3 and even up to 6 parts water. Full strength wine, undiluted, was called strong drink.

mmksparbud said:

LOL!! If you want to change history and the Hebrew language, and Hebrew laws--by all means, go right ahead. If it is accuracy you want then I suggest a little bit more research. Hebrew is a complicated language and there are several words for wine. Jesus was first and foremost a Jew, though the Jewish culture did have a large Greek influence and Roman---Jewish laws and language were predominant.
For those interested in real Jewish thought it is best to go to a Jewish source.

The Rabies had many rules on just about everything:

"It is customary to mix it in a ratio of one part wine to three parts water"
Wine is called "yayin" because it brings lamentation and wailing ("yelalah" and "wai") into the world, and "tirosh" because one that drinks it habitually is certain to become poor ( ). R. Kahana said the latter term is written sometimes , and sometimes ; that means, if drunk in moderation it gives leadership ( = "head"); if drunk in excess it leads to poverty (Yoma 76b). "Tirosh" includes all kinds of sweet juices and must, and does not include fermented wine (Tosef., Ned. iv. 3). "Yayin" is to be distinguished from "shekar"; the former is diluted with water ("mazug"); the latter is undiluted ("yayin ḥai"; Num. R. x. 8; comp. Sifre, Num. 23). In Talmudic usage "shekar" means "mead," or "beer," and according to R. Papa, it denotes drinking to satiety and intoxication (Suk. 49b).
Fresh wine before fermenting was called "yayin mi-gat" (wine of the vat; Sanh. 70a). The ordinary wine was of the current vintage. The vintage of the previous year was called "yayin yashan" (old wine). The third year's vintage was "yayin meyushshan" (very old wine).
WINE - JewishEncyclopedia.com

"The following rules apply to a person who has drunk a revi'it (approximately 3 oz.) or more of wine – or other alcoholic beverages that have a similar effect – and is still feeling the effect:

1) He may not pray.11

2) He may not render a halachic ruling.12

3) If he is a kohen, he may not administer the priestly blessing.13"

The Torah Perspective on Alcohol Consumption - Parshat Naso

For Priests:
Lev_10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations


People reading about strong drink in the bible assume it means hard liquor. It is very negative towards strong drink, but favorable to wine. --Hard liquor as we know it, did not exist in Ancient times. Distillation did not begin until at least the first century. And it did not begin with the Jews. Jews were not permitted to even touch a container of Gentile wine.

Distillation was known in the ancient Indian subcontinent, evident from baked clay retorts and receivers found at Taxila and Charsadda in modern Pakistan, dating back to the early centuries of the Common Era. These "Gandhara stills" were only capable of producing very weak liquor, as there was no efficient means of collecting the vapors at low heat.[5]
Evidence of distillation also comes from alchemists working in Alexandria, Roman Egypt, in the 1st century.[6] Distilled water has been known since at least c. 200, when Alexander of Aphrodisias described the process.[7][8] Work on distilling other liquids continued in early Byzantine Egypt, under Zosimus of Panopolis in the 3rd century. Distillation in China could have begun during the Eastern Han dynasty (1st–2nd centuries), but the distillation of beverages began in the Jin (12th–13th centuries) and Southern Song (10th–13th centuries) dynasties according to archaeological evidence.[9]
Distillation - Wikipedia

Reg, full strength wine was watered down by 1 part wine to 3 and even up to 6 parts water. Full strength wine, undiluted, was called strong drink.

Click to expand...

Lol, that's why Paul warned about getting drunk! Because the wine was watered down too much! Really!

Lol

Antig said:

Lol, that's why Paul warned about getting drunk! Because the wine was watered down too much! Really!

Lol

Click to expand...

Like I said---feel free to change history and Hebrew language and Hebrew laws all you want---this is for those who are more interested in accuracy.

mmksparbud said:

Like I said---feel free to change history and Hebrew language and Hebrew laws all you want---this is for those who are more interested in accuracy.

Click to expand...

It's not accurate though. Was you there when the water was turned into WINE? Was you there at the last supper? How do you know how strong the wine was?

Antig said:

It's not accurate though. Was you there when the water was turned into WINE? Was you there at the last supper? How do you know how strong the wine was?

Click to expand...

Were you? That is why history is there. Jesus did not indulge in strong drink--it was not permitted--strong drink was full strength wine--did you not read the whole post, or just skip over? Having drunk even 3 oz of watered down wine, you were not even supposed to pray. For a priest, they could drink no wine at all when going into the sanctuary. When we go to God in prayer--we are not to have wine. Jesus could not have prayed at the Passover if He had drunk. It does not say He prayed at the wedding. The best "wine" was considered freshly pressed from the grapes, as opposed to full strength wine that had to be watered down.

Joh 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.

Firkin: Used only in John 2:6 ; the Attic amphora, equivalent to the Hebrew bath (q.v.), a measure for liquids containing about 8 7/8 gallons.

Each container contained nearly 27 gallons as they were filled to the brim, probably 9 gallons. There were 6 of them----that's 54 gallons. By today's standard one bottle of wine is around 27 oz. That's 4.74 bottles of wine per gallon. 128 oz per gallon--1152 oz per container--6912 oz total----or the equivalent of 256 bottles of wine at most.

The Catholics have it as 20-30 gal. per container, but everything I find says 9 gal.


Rev_1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Antig said:

Only those who are dead against alcohol state what you did. Alcohol is ok if used moderately. Wine, that is, alcoholic, full bodied wine, was part of the staple diet of the time of Jesus.

Click to expand...

I completely agree that the bible teaches temperance and not abstinence... my contention is that the wine representing Christ's blood would be unfermented citing Biblical symbolism. This falls into the personal belief category, not salvational.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

You really do not see....it is sad...it is not about math. So He don't mean on the 3rd day or in 3 days then? You can not get your math unless it is 3 NIGHTS and 3 Days...that was NOT what He said

Click to expand...

Jesus says,
"For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." (Matthew 12:40).

Three days and three nights.

That is what He says.

I don't know about you, but if I tell people three days and three nights that is 72 hours. There are 24 hours in a day today just as there were 24 hours within a day back then. You can't change that, my friend.

For if a car dealership told you that they were going to give you a free car three days and three nights from the time they hit the stop watch in front of you (and you could not be late by 5 minutes or you could lose receiving the car), there is no doubt in my mind you would be there 72 hours from that point and not at another time. Jesus meant what He said. 3 days and 3 nights (72 hours).

Hank77 said:

Why would they have needed a phone?

Click to expand...

The temple gates were normally closed at night. Gates at the outer temple walls like these were usually guarded. So the idea of trading at the gate is silly and so a phone would have been the only way to talk with a merchant outside the gates late at night outside of the outer temple wall. But seeing phones did not exist back then, there would have been no way for Mary to try and talk to enough merchants who would be willing to sneak in some hidden way into the temple.

Anyways, Mark 16:1 records what took place on that Friday: “And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint Him.” (Verse 2 jumps to Sunday morning.) The phrase, “and when the Sabbath was past,” refers to the high day that occurred on Thursday. Since the women could not buy spices on the seventh-day Sabbath (Saturday), Friday was the only time they could have done so.

Luke 23:56 states, “And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.” After buying the spices, they returned and prepared them to be applied to Christ’s body in the tomb, which they planned to do after resting on the weekly Sabbath.

Luke 24:1 states, “Now upon the first day of the week [Sunday], very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulcher, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.” The women found the tomb empty (vs. 3). Two angels in shining garments informed them that Christ was already “risen” (vs. 4-6). Mark 16:2 states that the women were present “at the rising of the sun.” This means Christ was resurrected before sunrise. John 20:1 further tells us that Mary Magdalene came early “when it was yet dark” and found the stone that sealed the tomb was already rolled away. No sunrise resurrection could have occurred—because Christ was already resurrected!

Source:
Christ’s Crucifixion Was Not on Friday

mmksparbud said:

Were you? That is why history is there. Jesus did not indulge in strong drink--it was not permitted--strong drink was full strength wine--did you not read the whole post, or just skip over? Having drunk even 3 oz of watered down wine, you were not even supposed to pray. For a priest, they could drink no wine at all when going into the sanctuary. When we go to God in prayer--we are not to have wine. Jesus could not have prayed at the Passover if He had drunk. It does not say He prayed at the wedding. The best "wine" was considered freshly pressed from the grapes, as opposed to full strength wine that had to be watered down.

Joh 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.

Firkin: Used only in John 2:6 ; the Attic amphora, equivalent to the Hebrew bath (q.v.), a measure for liquids containing about 8 7/8 gallons.

Each container contained nearly 27 gallons as they were filled to the brim, probably 9 gallons. There were 6 of them----that's 54 gallons. By today's standard one bottle of wine is around 27 oz. That's 4.74 bottles of wine per gallon. 128 oz per gallon--1152 oz per container--6912 oz total----or the equivalent of 256 bottles of wine at most.

The Catholics have it as 20-30 gal. per container, but everything I find says 9 gal.


Rev_1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Click to expand...

Regardless of any such old Jewish standards, the Church has always used alcoholic wine for Communion. For over two thousand years it has been so, beginning with this Scriptural evidence (1 Corinthians 11:21) and continuing through the unchanging Tradition of the Orthodox Church throughout all of the ancient Christian sees. The Church now typically mixes water with the wine in the chalice when the gifts are prepared prior to Liturgy, and very hot water is added again immediately before the chalice is brought to the faithful for Communion. I would estimate it to be a 1:1 ratio of wine and water.

1stcenturylady said:

Hi Jason, my friend.

In your link you said two things that seem to contradict each other and I need you to clarify which you believe. First you said he rose at 3 PM, which would be afternoon (exactly 72 hours). And the second you said he rose in the night-time. Personally, I believe He rose after sundown Saturday, not letting another evening enter the mix.

Click to expand...

I believe Mark 16:9 is saying He is already risen (past tense).

Jesus died at 3:00PM on a Wednesday.
Jesus rose 3:00PM on a Saturday Sabbath (within the tomb).

This is 72 hours exactly!

For Jesus said He was in the heart of the Earth for three days and three nights.
The "heart of the Earth" is not the grave but it is in reference to Christ's time (While as a spirit) in "Sheol" where He was with the thief on the cross in Abraham's Bosom and where He spoke a message to those condemned souls who perished in the global flood.

Jesus also said to the thief on the cross that He would be with him that very day.
Both of their physical bodies died that day; So they would have seen each other in Abraham's Bosom (while they were in spirit form).

Note: The clock would have already been ticking with Christ's death upon the cross.

When the "Angel of the Lord" came down from Heaven and removed the stone, Jesus could have walked out after the guards were frightened away by the angel or Jesus could have phased through the rock stone earlier when they were sleeping.

EastCoastRemnant said:

I completely agree that the bible teaches temperance and not abstinence... my contention is that the wine representing Christ's blood would be unfermented citing Biblical symbolism. This falls into the personal belief category, not salvational.

Click to expand...

That assumes that unfermented wine would be available, though. As noted earlier, that does not appear to have been the case.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

We KNOW you are wrong because we have 2 witnesses on the road to Emmaus...

Click to expand...

While I do believe the KJV is inspired and perfect, I believe Modern Translations are more clearer on what Luke 24:21 says.

James Murdock Translation says, “And lo, three days [have passed], since all these things occurred.”

What things occurred?

His condemnation and crucifixion.

Not counting the day they have not yet completed, 3 days having past since these things occurred would be:


Wednesday is the day since all these things (i.e. His condemnation and crucifixion) had occurred.

Note: Jesus was was placed in the tomb shortly before sundown Wednesday (For at sundown on Wednesday, it began the beginning calendar day of Thursday).

Why is wine used at all, and why bread? Why not use goats milk and mushrooms?

Well, here's one reason why: Psalms 104:15

Wine gladdens the heart of man and bread strengthens him. What can do this more than God Himself, Who is present in the very symbols that He uses to Commune with us. The bread and wine are symbols, yet He is REALLY in the symbols, so that they are not mere "representations" of His body and blood, but are His body and blood indeed.

End note
Alcoholic wine gladdens the heart of man, not grape juice. Scriptural and ecclesiastical historical support for the use of fermented wine in Communion are so overwhelming that it's unthinkable that anyone would ever claim otherwise. This really is one of those silly and "useless debates" that Scripture instructs us not to engage in. None of us can afford to remove our gazes from Christ. So I'll be having to attend, in prayer, strictly to His presence now.

truefiction1 said:

Why is wine used at all, and why bread? Why not use goats milk and mushrooms?

Well, here's one reason why: Psalms 104:15

Wine gladdens the heart of man and bread strengthens him. What can do this more than God Himself, Who is present in the very symbols that He uses to Commune with us. The bread and wine are symbols, yet He is REALLY in the symbols, so that they are not mere "representations" of His body and blood, but are His body and blood indeed.

End note
Alcoholic wine gladdens the heart of man, not grape juice. Scriptural and ecclesiastical historical support for the use of fermented wine in Communion are so overwhelming that it's unthinkable that anyone would ever claim otherwise. This really is one of those silly and "useless debates" that Scripture instructs us not to engage in. None of us can afford to remove our gazes from Christ. So I'll be having to attend, in prayer, strictly to His presence now.

Click to expand...

The Israelites would buy fully fermented wine and store it that way, but when they drank wine, they diluted it with water. This diluted wine still had alcoholic content to make man's heart glad but it was not enough to intoxicate like undiluted fermented wines. Barbarians (Gentiles) usually drank undiluted fermented wine. They still do. In fact, Scripture warns against drinking this kind of wine.

21 Warnings That Speak Against The Alcoholic Beverage Itself.
(That is not specifically or exclusively talking about drunkenness)

Passages For the Old Testament Saint:

(Before the Cross: The OT Saint did not have a liberty in Christ to drink intoxicating beverages)
(Just as they did not have a liberty in Christ to eat unclean animals)

1) Deuteronomy 29:5-6
- God gave no grape juice to Israel nor did they have intoxicating drink in the wilderness.
(The reason for this action was taken so as to show how they knew God).

2) Deuteronomy 32:33
- Enemy's wine is like the poison of serpents vs. Israelite's pure blood of the grape (verse 14).

3) 1 Samuel 1:14-15
- Accused, Hannah said she drank no wine.

4) Proverbs 4:17
- Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.

5) Proverbs 20:1
- Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging.

6) Proverbs 23:31
- God instructs not to look at intoxicating drinks.

7) Proverbs 23:32
- Alcoholic drinks bite like a serpent, sting like an adder.

8) Proverbs 23:35
- Alcohol makes the drinker insensitive to pain so he does not perceive it as a warning.
(It also says Alcohol is habit forming).

9) Proverbs 31:4-5
- Kings, Princes, and others who rule and judge must not drink alcohol. Alcohol perverts good judgment.

10) Ecclesiastes 2:3
- The king tried everything, including intoxicating drink, to see if it satisfied. It did not.
(c.f. Ecclesiastes 12:8)

11) Ecclesiastes 10:17
- A land is blessed when its leaders do not drink.

12) Isaiah 5:22
- There is a woe unto them who mix strong drinks.

13) Jeremiah 35:2-14
- The Rechabites drank no grape juice or intoxicating wine and were blessed.

14) Daniel 1:5-17
- Daniel refused the king’s intoxicating wine and was blessed for it along with his abstaining friends.

15) Hosea 4:11
- Intoxicating wine seduces the heart.


Passages For the New Testament Saint:

(After the Cross: NT Saints (Not All) have a liberty in Christ to drink alcohol soberly & privately)
(Just as they have a liberty in Christ to eat unclean animals)
(Those whose conscience condemns them in drinking are not to drink)
(Those who are leaders in the church are not to drink alcohol)


16) Romans 14:21
- Do not do anything (Including drinking intoxicating beverages) to make your brother to stumble.

17) 1 Timothy 3:2-3
- Bishops (elders) are to be temperate, sober, and not near any wine.

18) 1 Timothy 3:8
- Deacons are to be worthy of respect and not drinkers.

19) 1 Timothy 3:11
- Deacons’ wives are to be temperate and sober.

20) Titus 1:7-8
- A bishop is not to be given to wine.

21) Titus 2:2-3
- The older men and older women of the church are to be temperate and not addicted to wine.

Such warnings would not exist if wine was totally cool and good for us. Technically today's type wines are a poison and not a food. That is why most wines do not have a nutrition label on them. If you put a coin in rubbing alcohol it is going to clean the coin. If you put meat in rubbing alcohol it is going to dry out the meat. The thing is that the alcohol does not know when it is in the body or outside the body. It is going to destroy and dry things out. That is what alcohol does.

truefiction1 said:

Regardless of any such old Jewish standards, the Church has always used alcoholic wine for Communion. For over two thousand years it has been so, beginning with this Scriptural evidence (1 Corinthians 11:21) and continuing through the unchanging Tradition of the Orthodox Church throughout all of the ancient Christian sees. The Church now typically mixes water with the wine in the chalice when the gifts are prepared prior to Liturgy, and very hot water is added again immediately before the chalice is brought to the faithful for Communion. I would estimate it to be a 1:1 ratio of wine and water.

Click to expand...

It is old Jewish standards that are the basis for Christianity. If one wants to do as Jesus did, then we should do as He did. I realize 2000 years of tradition takes precedence in some churches, but that is not what I am personally interested in. It was not possible for a Jewish priest to enter into the sanctuary having drank the diluted wine. It meant death. The High Priest would have been instantly struck down. A lay person was not even to pray having drank wine--if he did it was considered an abomination and he would have to pray again later after the affects wore off.

1stcenturylady said:

I just read this and wanted to see what you thought.

Matthew 27:
62 On the next day, which followed the Day of Preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees gathered together to Pilate, 63 saying, “Sir, we remember, while He was still alive, how that deceiver said, ‘After three days I will rise.’ 64 Therefore command that the tomb be made secure until the third day, lest His disciples come by night and steal Him away, and say to the people, ‘He has risen from the dead.’ So the last deception will be worse than the first.”

65 Pilate said to them, “You have a guard; go your way, make it as secure as you know how.” 66 So they went and made the tomb secure, sealing the stone and setting the guard.

Don't you find it strange that if this was the Sabbath they would be doing manual labor making the tomb secure? They couldn't even hire to have it done.

Click to expand...

"These were regular Roman soldiers. A watch consisted of 4 soldiers which was changed every four hours. They would die if their prisoner escaped. These soldiers were not from the temple guard. Like the group that came to imprison Jesus."
Roman Soldiers guard the Tomb, Matthew 27:62-66 | Bibleview

It was the Roman soldiers for in Matt 28 they went and reported to the priests.

Mat 28:11 Now when they were going, behold, some of the watch came into the city, and shewed unto the chief priests all the things that were done.
Mat 28:12 And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave large money unto the soldiers,
Mat 28:13 Saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him away while we slept.