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Looking into the shadows of the history of Christianity

somf4eva

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First of all, I support our troops and what they are doing. Regardless of what anyone says about oil and whatever, if you say that the WORLD is safer with Saddam Hussein in power, then you are crazy. I think killing defenless people is incredibly wrong, but freeing a people from a dictator like Saddam is a just thing in my mind.

To address what this three was started for, I beleive that the misunderstandings of Gods world and the use of it for personal gain is a horrible thing. I cannot understand how people could have done this is the past. The only thing we can do is love our jewish brothers and pray for them that they may see a glipse of light as well as praying for the rest of the world.
 
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T

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I believe the number of Catholics actively or passively supporting the Nazi party was a bit lower, but still at least 80%ish. There are accounts of priests and pastors putting swastikas beside the cross, requiring Nazi party oaths of loyalty for leadership in the church, the HJ pretty much taking over church youth groups with the churches' blessings, praising Hitler for wanting to deal with the "Jewish vermin," and leading benedictions and prayers in "the names of our Fuhrers: Jesus Christ and Adolph Hitler."
Apparently those were not the same clergy who died in concentration camps in the millions. 14 million died in the Holocaust, about 8 million were Jews.
 
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Thursday said:
Apparently those were not the same clergy who died in concentration camps in the millions. 14 million died in the Holocaust, about 8 million were Jews.
I never said that no clergy died in the Holocaust, but surely you aren't suggesting that the other 6 million who died were all clergy? :scratch:

Let's not forget others who were persecuted: those who hid Jews (sometimes Christians), homosexuals, the mentally ill, the disabled, Russians, Poles, Roma, political enemies, etc.

The fact is, the vast majority of Christians and Catholics went along with Hitler. I'd like to see anyone disprove that. Some have tried, none have succeeded.
 
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Zug-Zwang

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These 3 men did the excact same thing for the excact same reason.

Jereboam was of course the first king of the Northern Kingdom known as many names.The house of Israel,The house of Joseph,Ephraim and the Northern kingdom within the divided Kingdom of Israel,The other kingdom is the house of Judah.They also have in common the lacation{Palistine}

Jereboam changed the feasts of Israel to Pagan celebrations like worship of the Sun{Saturnalia,Christmass} and weeping for Tammuz{Ishtar,Easter}
The reason he changed the celebrations was that he knew if his kingdom went to jerusalem 3 times a year that his Kingdom would soon reunite with the house of Judah.King Jereboam built his temple in Shechem what is known today as Nablus the capitol of Palistine.He changed thesabboth's,celebrations and locations to worship.

Later in 722 bc Arabs from Iraq and Egypt moved into the houses of the ten lost tribes and they also were taught these same celebrations.

Then Constantine came and Constantine like Jereboam knew that if Christianity revered Jerusalem and it's Sabbaths and celebrations that the christians also would revert back to the house of Judah having their celebrations in common so Constantine changed Jerusalem to Rome and like Jereboam before him, he chose Ishtar and Christmass.

Then we see Mohammed on the sceen and he also began Islam with Passover,Pentacost and Sukkot but just like Jereboam and Constantine he knew excactly what would happen if he kept the celebrations listed in the Bible.He knew that celebrations of G-d's unite people and that if Arabs had the same celebrations in commin that they would always love Israel and recognize that they are brothers.
All 3 did the same thing,They all began with a brotherhood with Israel.

Jereboam ruled Israelies in the northern kingdom,Then gentiles were called during Yeshuah's day to occuppy the northern kingdom by Spirit and became the found-lost sheep of Israel.

The whole time we see Arabs occuppying the northern kingdom in the flesh,in fact one could say that Islam and Christianity are brothers.Christianity occuppying the House of Israel by the spirit whereas Arabian Islam is there in the flesh.Sounds like the story of Esau and Jacob.
 
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Lifesaver

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Yes, the Jews have been often the victims of many acts of hate.
It is not always the case, though, as the OP tries to make of St. Augustine as a man prejudiced against Jews, when it is not true.

On the Church's position regarding this kind of persecution, it is very relevant to post this Papal Encyclical by Pope Gregory X, issued in 1272, a document which both repeats what has been historically taught since the early years and which sets the standard of what is to be taught in this regard:
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Greg10/g10jprot.htm
 
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Zug-Zwang

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Lifesaver said:
Yes, the Jews have been often the victims of many acts of hate.
It is not always the case, though, as the OP tries to make of St. Augustine as a man prejudiced against Jews, when it is not true.

On the Church's position regarding this kind of persecution, it is very relevant to post this Papal Encyclical by Pope Gregory X, issued in 1272, a document which both repeats what has been historically taught since the early years and which sets the standard of what is to be taught in this regard:
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Greg10/g10jprot.htm
The O.P. posted a quote from saint augustine ,If that truly is a quote from him,I've never seen a man more prejudice against Jews,how could you imply any different? Do you think Jews killed Jesus and deserve to suffer?
 
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Russebby

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xtxArchxAngelxtx said:
.Holy War/Mass Murder Passages in the Hebrew Bible:

Exod. 12: 29-30
Exod. 15: 3-7**
Exod. 32: 26-28***
Exod. 17:14

Num. 25: 1-9**
Num. 31:1-38**

Deut.2:34-35**
Deut. 3:6-7
Deut. 7: 1-5**
Deut. 13:12-18
Deut. 20: 2-4
Deut. 2010-18**

Josh. 5:13-15**
Josh. 6:17-21**
Josh. 8:24-28
Josh. 10: 28-40

1 Sam. 15:3
2 Sam 8

1 kings 18:17-40**
2 Kings 2:23-24**
I noticed the passages you use are all from the Old Testament. Realize, though, that nothing you used comes from the mouth of Jesus Christ, who died for our sins. If we are Christians and therefore believe in the teachings of Jesus as he walked and talked on earth, then we have to approach the scriptures you cite with a little skepticism. It is a crying shame that Christians for centuries took the scriptures as they saw fit, using them to validate their prejudices and hate.

I hear people also using the letters of Paul to validate slavery.

But I never hear any hatemonger using anything Jesus said or did to condone their violence. Hence, if Jesus is the center of Christianity, and Christians kill and enslave using anything other than what Jesus actually said to validate their crimes, it seems to me there isn't anything very Christian in most of Christian history.

Catholics and Protestants seem equally culpable in this. Pity that much of what passed for Christianity in the past had little to do with the actual teachings of Jesus, eh? :o
 
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Lifesaver

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Zug-Zwang said:
The O.P. posted a quote from saint augustine ,If that truly is a quote from him,I've never seen a man more prejudice against Jews,how could you imply any different? Do you think Jews killed Jesus and deserve to suffer?
I don't know if it's from him, but even if it is, it is hardly evidence to judge his views, and much less with the quickness you exposed.
From one quote you have concluded that he was the most prejudiced man you have ever seen.

Anti-semitism being a sin, you have accused this holy Doctor of the Church of a great sin, and of endorsing sin.

Whether I "think" Jews killed Christ or not, there is no opinion of mind involved: Christ was killed by Jews and Romans, and the first group was the most interested in His death.
No Buddhists, Hindus or Muslims there...

That is not to say all Jews who lived then were responsible for His death, or that those who live today deserve to be punished for what their ancestors did.
I just hope those Jewish people alive today recognize how evil their ancestors' action was.
 
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SolomonVII

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Much like the messianics of oday, may of the first Christians were Jews. They taught the gospels in the synagogues, and, needless to say, there was a lot of heated feelings on both sides of the issue. Like messianic jews in synagogues today, who are sometimes spit upon by orthodox jews who (correctly?) believe that the message of Jesus as Christ is not for synagogues, the animosity of early christians and church fathers toward jews is breed from this contempt of familiarity.
Unoubtedly, the feeling were mutual. Pagan Rome did not distinguish too much between Jew and Christian, but regarded the lot as troublemakers. Much of the trouble being stirred in fact was directly due to this divergence in the message dabout Jesus.
For people who have strong beliefs in the ultimate truth of their spritual faith, such a difference was very important.

The New Testament records many of the angry responses of OT Jews against those who taught the gospel of the New Covenant. This sis the proper historical context for the anger of many of the early church fathers against jews. From our own historical context of a millenieum of Christian campaigns, pogroms, perwecutions, and holocausts against Jews, it is important to realize that the early church fathers were not writing from the position of power that Christians eventually assumed, but from a postion of total powerlessness vis-a-vis virtually every othersegment of their society.
 
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Zug-Zwang

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Lifesaver said:
I don't know if it's from him, but even if it is, it is hardly evidence to judge his views, and much less with the quickness you exposed.
From one quote you have concluded that he was the most prejudiced man you have ever seen.

Anti-semitism being a sin, you have accused this holy Doctor of the Church of a great sin, and of endorsing sin.

Whether I "think" Jews killed Christ or not, there is no opinion of mind involved: Christ was killed by Jews and Romans, and the first group was the most interested in His death.
No Buddhists, Hindus or Muslims there...

That is not to say all Jews who lived then were responsible for His death, or that those who live today deserve to be punished for what their ancestors did.
I just hope those Jewish people alive today recognize how evil their ancestors' action was.
You just don't get it do you? The Jews did not kill Yeshuah.I can't even put the blame on the Romans because I know it was me that did it.

Nobody killed G-d,He came with a plan to die.If you believe that Yeshuah died for your sins then how could you place the blame on others?

Let's talk about your ancestors,What race were your fathers 2000 years ago?
Act's 21 states that myriads of Jews believed and all were zealous for the Torah and through that foundation they molded the entire world,as far as I know I could have come from Egypt from goat farmers but because the Jews know where they come from they should feel shame for some of the bad people in there society?

Yeshuah may have died at the hands of the Romans but think about who the Romans were.They were {THE NATIONS} No less than America is today with all races of people.Alexandria was also a Roman city,citizens of Rome.
 
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Zug-Zwang

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xtxArchxAngelxtx said:
physically the Jews killed Jesus... you cannot argue with historical facts.

Spiritually, yes, we put him on the cross.
Physically the Romans killed Jesus,The Jews were not allowed to kill him,they had no authority and they definatly could kill him by their own laws in reference to Torah.The Jews lost their Authorty in 6ad when Herod Archelaus was deposed by Caesar Augustus wich by the way was prophecy fullfilled when Jacob said in Gen 49 that the sceptor would fall from Judah and Shilo would come,In 6th A.D. Shilo{restgiving} did come when he was presented before he became a man at the age of 13 at Passover.The Roman's were the only ones allowed to kill.Gen 14 states that when Judah drops the scepter it would fall to the Messiah.Drpping the scepter means you are no longer allowed to kill for transgressions of the law and in 6ad Rabbi Rachman is quoted as saying{woe is us,woe is Jerusalem for Judah has dropped the sceptor and Shilo hasn't come.
 
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SolomonVII

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The fact that the the Romans put Jesus to death at the instigation of the the Jewish temple authorities, and with the approval of the mob is the gospel account of the death of Jesus.

How far we can take the gospel account to be literal history is a matter of dispute. for example, for a Jew to have proclaimed that the blood of Jesus be on their hands and the hands of their children has been speculated by some gospel historians to be an indication of the anger many Christians felt when they were finally and fully prohibited from teaching Christ in the synagogues around 95 AD or so.
 
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xtxArchxAngelxtx

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Zug-Zwang said:
Physically the Romans killed Jesus,The Jews were not allowed to kill him,they had no authority and they definatly could kill him by their own laws in reference to Torah.The Jews lost their Authorty in 6ad when Herod Archelaus was deposed by Caesar Augustus wich by the way was prophecy fullfilled when Jacob said in Gen 49 that the sceptor would fall from Judah and Shilo would come,In 6th A.D. Shilo{restgiving} did come when he was presented before he became a man at the age of 13 at Passover.The Roman's were the only ones allowed to kill.Gen 14 states that when Judah drops the scepter it would fall to the Messiah.Drpping the scepter means you are no longer allowed to kill for transgressions of the law and in 6ad Rabbi Rachman is quoted as saying{woe is us,woe is Jerusalem for Judah has dropped the sceptor and Shilo hasn't come.
uh...

Frustration.

OK!
Yes the romans actually killed Jesus but only because the Jews gave pilot no choice cause if pilot did not sentence Jesus then there would be an uprising.

The jews came to the roman government to kill Jesus. So if it wasn't for the jews, it would never of happened. Infact Pilot and another political leader didnt even want to kill Jesus.
 
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SolomonVII

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Zug-Zwang said:
These 3 men did the excact same thing for the exact same reason.

Jereboam was of course the first king of the Northern Kingdom known as many names.The house of Israel,The house of Joseph,Ephraim and the Northern kingdom within the divided Kingdom of Israel,The other kingdom is the house of Judah.They also have in common the lacation{Palistine}

Jereboam changed the feasts of Israel to Pagan celebrations like worship of the Sun{Saturnalia,Christmass} and weeping for Tammuz{Ishtar,Easter}
The reason he changed the celebrations was that he knew if his kingdom went to jerusalem 3 times a year that his Kingdom would soon reunite with the house of Judah.King Jereboam built his temple in Shechem what is known today as Nablus the capitol of Palistine.He changed thesabboth's,celebrations and locations to worship.

Later in 722 bc Arabs from Iraq and Egypt moved into the houses of the ten lost tribes and they also were taught these same celebrations.

Then Constantine came and Constantine like Jereboam knew that if Christianity revered Jerusalem and it's Sabbaths and celebrations that the christians also would revert back to the house of Judah having their celebrations in common so Constantine changed Jerusalem to Rome and like Jereboam before him, he chose Ishtar and Christmass.

Then we see Mohammed on the sceen and he also began Islam with Passover,Pentacost and Sukkot but just like Jereboam and Constantine he knew excactly what would happen if he kept the celebrations listed in the Bible.He knew that celebrations of G-d's unite people and that if Arabs had the same celebrations in commin that they would always love Israel and recognize that they are brothers.
All 3 did the same thing,They all began with a brotherhood with Israel.

Jereboam ruled Israelies in the northern kingdom,Then gentiles were called during Yeshuah's day to occuppy the northern kingdom by Spirit and became the found-lost sheep of Israel.

The whole time we see Arabs occuppying the northern kingdom in the flesh,in fact one could say that Islam and Christianity are brothers.Christianity occuppying the House of Israel by the spirit whereas Arabian Islam is there in the flesh.Sounds like the story of Esau and Jacob.
Historians in more recent years are seriously questioning whether or not the Northern Kingdom of Israel, and the Southern Kingdom of Judah were ever really united, and if so, how senior a partner the tribe of Judah would have been in such an arrangement. The lands of Israel were always much richer than those of the dry hills of Judah, and Judah never attained the level of development that the Northern Kingdom did. As well, it is very likely that all of the so-called ten tribes were in fact Cannanites from the beginning, and such practices continued in the Northern Kingdom right up until its demise.

Rather, some consider the much of the Deuteronomic history of the Bible to have been written in the reign of the King Josiah for the explicit political purpose of uniting the peoples of these two lands once Assyria was out of the picture left open a window of opportunity.
All this is to say that the degree that Jeroboam rejected Jerusalem as a worship site is really open to question. It is just as possible that the Northern kingdom already had worship sites of their even before David and Solomon established themselves in Jerusalem.


In terms of the trio of Mohammed, Constantine, and Jeroboam, perhaps a better anology would be the even greater similarities between Moses, Mohammed, and Constantine. Muslims have always quite correctly pointed out that Mohammed style was very much in the likes of Moses, in that both brought God's law to God's people, and were very much involved in military conquest as the adequate means of doing so. While Constantine was never much of a religious personality, he too was very interested in a common spiritual belief unifying his empire into a cohesive political, military and social force.

Unlike either Moses or Mohammed, though, Constantine is not really responsible for any of the changess that Christianity brought to the Old Covenant religion. Gathering on the 'eight day' of the resurrection was an established practice of many of the early followers of the Way long before Constantine arrived on the scene. Nor did he really change any the laws of the Roman empire in any significant way according to Divine command. He was mainly a political and military character, and he left the decisions of a more spiritual nature in the hands of the Church.

As a final note, Zug-Zwang, with all your talk of Ishtar and Constantine changing the site of worship from Jerusalem to Rome( actually he changed the heqdquarters of his empire from Rome to Constantine), you are painting into a corner occupied by the superstitious and the uninformed.
 
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Zug-Zwang

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solomon said:
Historians in more recent years are seriously questioning whether or not the Northern Kingdom of Israel, and the Southern Kingdom of Judah were ever really united, and if so, how senior a partner the tribe of Judah would have been in such an arrangement. The lands of Israel were always much richer than those of the dry hills of Judah, and Judah never attained the level of development that the Northern Kingdom did. As well, it is very likely that all of the so-called ten tribes were in fact Cannanites from the beginning, and such practices continued in the Northern Kingdom right up until its demise.

Rather, some consider the much of the Deuteronomic history of the Bible to have been written in the reign of the King Josiah for the explicit political purpose of uniting the peoples of these two lands once Assyria was out of the picture left open a window of opportunity.
All this is to say that the degree that Jeroboam rejected Jerusalem as a worship site is really open to question. It is just as possible that the Northern kingdom already had worship sites of their even before David and Solomon established themselves in Jerusalem.


In terms of the trio of Mohammed, Constantine, and Jeroboam, perhaps a better anology would be the even greater similarities between Moses, Mohammed, and Constantine. Muslims have always quite correctly pointed out that Mohammed style was very much in the likes of Moses, in that both brought God's law to God's people, and were very much involved in military conquest as the adequate means of doing so. While Constantine was never much of a religious personality, he too was very interested in a common spiritual belief unifying his empire into a cohesive political, military and social force.

Unlike either Moses or Mohammed, though, Constantine is not really responsible for any of the changess that Christianity brought to the Old Covenant religion. Gathering on the 'eight day' of the resurrection was an established practice of many of the early followers of the Way long before Constantine arrived on the scene. Nor did he really change any the laws of the Roman empire in any significant way according to Divine command. He was mainly a political and military character, and he left the decisions of a more spiritual nature in the hands of the Church.

As a final note, Zug-Zwang, with all your talk of Ishtar and Constantine changing the site of worship from Jerusalem to Rome( actually he changed the heqdquarters of his empire from Rome to Constantine), you are painting into a corner occupied by the superstitious and the uninformed.
The division of the two kingdoms is very pronounced in at least half the books of the bible.The division lasted for 200 years and they both had kings of their own all those years.The bible states that at the Assyrian attack in 722 they were all carried off and Babylonians placed in their houses but 1 priest was brought back.
David chose Jerusalem because Jerusalem lies in Benjamin right in the center of the two kingdom.Benjamin and Judah are the house of Judah but Benjamin is also in the House of Israel.I would go on and on about this subject but it seems useless givin that there is factual evidence of their seperation for 200 years and you can even find this informations in the records of non Jewish nations,However by the time 722 b.c. rolled around the northern kingdom had allready cast off the Torah and chose as you say the high places that were there and by that time they had allready begun mixing with gentiles because of their throwing off of their foundation.They had allready began to be gentiles but they were still the Northern kingdom of Israel with a majority of Iraelie blood.

Constantine records in the council of Nicae proove that he was very instramental in the church and its laws .Speaking of the sabbath,he said let us keep the venerable day of the sun because his god was Sol{Solar},that's why he saw a cross in the sky and kept the T for Tammuz cause it was allready a symbal.Constantine said of Easter in the council of Naecie that because the Jews had committed such a nefairous crime in killing Jesus let us have nothing to do with the costum of the Jews in keeping Pesach,let us keep Easter as all the people do allready.
You were right about one thing the people started their Paganism in the church of Rome before John wrote his Revelations and thats excactly why he spoke of Rome as being connected to the ant-christ because the christian church had allready accepted the Babylonian worship of Tammuz.People were allready being persecuted for following the Bible's Sabbath and Holy appointed days of G-d but when Constantine made laws concerning them the persecutions esscalated just as it did in the days of Martin Luther because of what he said about the Jews.It's funny because Constantine seems like the founder of Easter in the church by making it law and Martin Luther strengthened Christ-mass.Constantine wanting to have nothing to do with the Jews traditions was in effect wanting nothing to do with G-d's traditions.People say we aint under the law but we are discussing the celebrations of a G-d
 
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Zug-Zwang

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xtxArchxAngelxtx said:
uh...

Frustration.

OK!
Yes the romans actually killed Jesus but only because the Jews gave pilot no choice cause if pilot did not sentence Jesus then there would be an uprising.

The jews came to the roman government to kill Jesus. So if it wasn't for the jews, it would never of happened. Infact Pilot and another political leader didnt even want to kill Jesus.
You said if it wasn't for the Jews it wouldn't have happened but the opposite is more true that if it wasn't for the gentiles it wouldn't have happened whereas many Jews were blinded for the sake of the gentiles because of their blindness and hate the gospel went to the gentiles. :cool: I'm very greatfull for their rejection and I strongly support funding Jews going back to Israel and helping them everyway I can because of the many prophecy about blessings coming to those that help them and bless them.Anti-semitism is the exect thing that is wrong with this world today as Muslims are killing all of us because of Israel and our relationship with them and I suppose you are write in a way because Jews have borre the brunt of punishment but not as much for rejecting Jesus but because they are the example to the world and they have been punished as an example to us by G-d.I see the Holocaust as being the only nation in the world cast into a furnace as a warning to all mankind that fire will come and proove us all and after the punishment of the Holocaust the Jews have been bless on every turn and it seems to me that their punishment is over.When I saw the pictures of those little children at the Holocaust museum with their genitials sewed together so they couldn't relieve themselves I never forgot it.They were standing their naked with a peculiar smile as if they refused to believe what was happening.People say those Jews rejected Jesus and they are going to hell,I refuse to believe that though.Like Muslims,I don't think all Muslims are going to hell because they do believe in the G-d of Abraham it's just that their traditions are different and they changed their religion and laws to suit them.They also recognize Jesus in the Qur'an.Christians also changed the religion and the laws and I don't believe they will all go to hell for that either.
 
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Zug-Zwang

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In Ezekiel 8 when it talks about Sun worship and weeping for Tammuz notice that the ones that don't do pagan holidays are givin the seal of G-d on their forehead and the rest are marked for destruction.How do you get the seal of G-d on your forehead and right hand?

Exodus 13 Celebrate my Passover and it will be a sign on your forehead and right hand between me and you and ur descendents forever.

How do you get the mark of the beast on your forehead and right hand? Wouldn't it be the same principle except being it's the mark of Babylon{Tammuz} and the Babylonian holiday of the reurection of Nimrod is Easter.
 
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Hi Russeboy, sorry it took me so long to get back to this. I'm afraid I won't be able to participate in any of these discussions in any sort of timely manner due to the ammount of time in between me being on line.

Sorry, Doug, gotta call you out on these. History chould never be seen through hindsight; real historical scholarship comes when we put ourselves in the place of the people we are studying, when we consider the climate of time and place. Honest pursuit of history does not come from playing Monday morning quarterback, but from empathy.

sorry, but just on this one you completely lost me

As such, I hardly blame the Jews for joining with hte Bolsheviks in 1917 Russia. Considering how the czar used Jewish villages as personal pinatas for centuries, I can see how Jews could seek a solution that promised to rid them from their feudal overlords. In their eyes, anything had to be better than being perpetual Russian serfs. If Vladimir Lenin comes to your downtrodden village promising equality in wealth and an end to class strata, and you and your family had always lived on a subsistence level, I could hardly blame you for fighting to unshackle yourself from the czar's tyranny and to better your life.

what you say is true though still wrong from a Christian viewpoint and even from a non Christian viewpoint I think you'd have to agree that the Russian revolutionaries did a lot of evil beyond just liberating themselves. Sure you can say it was just revenge but a lot of it just plain wasn't.

Modern Israel has plenty to answer for in terms of how it deals with Palestinians. But I ask you how you view the American saga against terrorism. I don't know your stance, but there are plenty of Americans that want to nuke the whole Middle East, that thought Abu Ghraib should have been ignored, and that we should cut off Arab heads in this country. We in America still have the luxury as of this date to talk like this, the war is 7000 miles away from home. But Israel has to deal with this in their front lawns, and they've had to deal with it for fifty years. There is no religious zeal in how Israelis deal with Palestinians, so I think trying to lump what Jews are doing here and now to the thread topic of the horrific things done in the name of Christ is a stretch at best.


Ok to make it clear, I think the "war on terror" is a sham. It's being used for purely political reasons and is only making the world far more dangerous. As for those viewpoints you mentioned that certain Americans have I'd say they're disgusting. I also know that Israel wouldn't be having the problems they have if they hadn't started their country with the anihilation and deportation of Arab villages and if they didn't continue their incursion, killings and distruction on Arab lands. What I'm trying to show is simply that just as you can't throw blame over all Jews for the evil they've done you can't do the same for all Christians for what Christians and Christian states have done. And also that the viewpoint that Jews have done nothing but be innocent and get slaughtered is an incorrect viewpoint.

Persecution of early Christian Church?? Unless you are talking about when the Jews chose Barrabas over Jesus, I have no idea where this comes from. Christians and Jews were both persecuted by the Romans, so it you're going to go after anyone, go after Rome. The Romans destroyed the temple in Jerusalem in 70 anno domini, dispursing the Jews--how in the world could there have ever been any organized Jewish persecution against Christians? And even if there was the teeniest tiniest bit, I would think 2000 years of Christian brutality of the Jews during the Crusades, Black Death, Inquisition, and the Holocaust would more than offset anything Jews might have done in the scant few years between the death of Jesus and the destruction of the temple.

The first persecutions of the Christians were from the Jews not the Romans although the Romans quickly took up the torch literally. Also throughout history Christians especially Jewish Christians have been threatened persecuted and killed by non Christian Jews.
I think your feelings about the Jews are a little overboard.
I'd disagree simply because I think my points are valid. And I'd invite you to argue them although the things I'm talking about did happen and I'm simply stating that, I don't think I've exagerated anything.

ArchAngel

Maybe because those who defend israel are looked upon as "good" in Gods eyes.

sorry that's just plain unscriptural


And no, christians have persecuted jews about a 100 times more than Jews persecuting us.

that could be true although I couldn't be sure about the exact number of times, maybe more, but I think a lot less. Anyhow that still doesn't excuse your painting all Christians as persecutors of Jews because most weren't and aren't.

Uh... the people we killed were those who were hostile to us and to the iraqi non combatants. Do some reaserch outside of the media like I did, which is fist hand.

Well Americans were sure hostile to them, would that excuse Iraqis coming over to America and killing americans? I say no.
And most of those killed were non combatants or were non combatants until Americans came and started killing them.

Says the media in a chaotic situation in which they have no clue as to what is going on.

I have heard stories, seen pictures, seen physical evidence of the other way around. Sorry, the iraqi's need us. I should be seeing it first hand here within a year and I will be more than willing to help those people who need us.

Well I've seen the pictures and heard the stories too, and I still disagree with you. Sorry, Iraqis don't need you with your current mentality. They need Jesus not your God damned shrapnel and bullets. I hope you don't go there unless it's the Lord's will and that if you do you can be a witness.</FONT>
 
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xtxArchxAngelxtx

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"The jews are Gods Chosen people." Very scriptural.

I did not paint all christians as persectures... did I EVER say that? No. But check the first posts to see the factual history of christianities role in anti semitisim.

"Well Americans were sure hostile to them, would that excuse Iraqis coming over to America and killing americans? I say no.
And most of those killed were non combatants or were non combatants until Americans came and started killing them.


Says the media in a chaotic situation in which they have no clue as to what is going on."


Ok so I am just going to assume that you have only what the media gives you to see.
I have video tapes and slide shows from the 101st air born division showing what GOOD progress is being made. I have heard stories, seen personal pictures of children and families coming to us for aid.

I am also going to assume you have 0 urbarn warfare/terrorist combat training. Thats ok, alot of people talk about stuff they have no clue about.
Let me paint a picture for you. In iraq, you have many cities, many cities in which have several tribal parties who tend to be "violent." They are amongst what I call a civil war, and there are innocents.

You can call the tribal people malitia. They want their own independent leadership, much like how a kingdom would fight for land and power when we are trying to create a democracy for the people.
Now these "malitia" are indeed combatants, but the funny thing is that all they need to do is lay down their weapon, and they are no longer a combatant. See how complicated that gets?


"Well I've seen the pictures and heard the stories too, and I still disagree with you. Sorry, Iraqis don't need you with your current mentality. They need Jesus not your God damned shrapnel and bullets. I hope you don't go there unless it's the Lord's will and that if you do you can be a witness"

What pictures have you seen may I ask? IT'S WAR, its not a pretty "picture" (pun intended).

My current mentallity... once again, people talking about things they know nothing about. FYI, my current mentallity is to save the innocents, and take down the forces resisting us because they are infact fighting against freedom.
Also FYI, I am a chaplain assistant. It is my job to help minister to people. I actually am also a chaplain body guard (chaplain being a military pastor in case you did not know).
Wrong mentallity? I think not. What is stopping you from being a missionary down there? Nothing is stopping you. I mean my brothers (fellow soldiers) over there are the only missionaries down there. If you think you can minister to people of a different faith, different religion, different traditions, different God, and different lifestyle amongst a war, then go for it and put your money where your mouth is. If not, then I suggest you keep quiet, stop making rash judgements about me, my fellow soldiers, and my faith and my mentallity.

Peace
 
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