Looking for some directions.

[salival]

Hello everyone.

I have been lurking for a while and finally decided to join.

I am very familiar with Catholicism already and know a bit of Orthodoxy. It seems that both see flaws in each other and reject each other doctrines at least some of the most fundamental ones. I have been intending to join one but the situation seems a bit complex, and it is difficult to decide. So I am standing in a middle ground undecided on which Church is the real Church, so anyone can give some help on this?

From your perspective as Orthodox, what are the problems The Catholic Church has, what if any are it's errors? It seems there are some problems with Vatican II, what do you think about everything?

salival

 

[Vasya Davidovich]

1. Monolithic leadership, not conciliar.
2. Dogmas: papal infallibility, immaculate conception.
3. Scholasticism.
4. Papal supremacy.
5. Celibate priesthood.
6. Statues.
7. Co-redemptrix movement.
8. Communion: Unleavened bread, (used to be) only one species (body, not blood), etc.
9. Changed date of Easter (Pascha).

Those jump to mind.

Basically, the drift from Orthodoxy in last centuries pre-Schism and accretions since.

 

[salival]

Hello Vasya Davidovich,

Thanks for your reply. If you don't mind I would like ot further explore the list of items that you posted.

3. Scholasticism.
I was not aware that this presented a problem, could you please elaborate?

4. Papal supremacy.
I had thought that even before the schism the primacy of Rome was already widespread. Is this not the case?

6. Statues.
So the Orthodox don't use images? Or is it only the statues that are not allowed?

9. Changed date of Easter (Pascha).
I am aware of this but wasn't this done before the schism? Or was there disagreement already about this? Does this also include moving the Sabbath to Sunday? And The date of Christ birth to December?

salival

 

[Emmanuel-A]

Salival,

I think that this general questions require more than a few lines on a forum.
I would recommend you to read The Orthodox Church, by Thimoty (Kallistos)Ware. This book is concise, easy to read, well balanced and covers a lot of different topics both from an historic and doctrinal point of view. It should answer a lot of your questions.

Emmanuel

 

[MariaRegina]

Another excellent book is Becoming Orthodox by Peter Gilquist. It is available through Concilar Press or Amazon.com.

 

[Vasya Davidovich]

3. Scholasticism.
I was not aware that this presented a problem, could you please elaborate?

4. Papal supremacy.
I had thought that even before the schism the primacy of Rome was already widespread. Is this not the case?

6. Statues.
So the Orthodox don't use images? Or is it only the statues that are not allowed?

9. Changed date of Easter (Pascha).
I am aware of this but wasn't this done before the schism? Or was there disagreement already about this? Does this also include moving the Sabbath to Sunday? And The date of Christ birth to December?

Salival:

Ditto what Emmanuel said. I am no theologian, my memory is scant, and I am bound to misrepresent Orthodoxy.

3. Scholasticism took mystery and explained it away.

4. Papal supremacy... the pope was regarded as primus inter pares, but increasingly insisted on a father role as opposed to the previous older brother role. It was Orthodox protest to this innovation that led to the papal bull of excommunication in 1054.

6. Orthodox are profoundly uneasy about statues. The furthest we go in that direction is bas relief - we simply don't want things to look "natural" lest they be used as idols as opposed to icons. Plus, we remember the OT prohibition on graven images and try to honour it while honouring the Incarnation.

9. I believe the most recent change was in the 16th century. Mind you, my memory is shorting.

There will be others who will post... correct me... develop these themes... add to what I have said... references books and sites. But this is a start. Oh, and I strongly reiterate what Emmanuel said. That book by Timothy Ware (now Bishop KALLISTOS) is excellent for introducing and explaining Orthodoxy and its history.

In Christ,
The sinner Vasya.

 

[Orthosdoxa]

Hello, Salival! Welcome to TAW!


The answers you have gotten so far look pretty good to me. I myself am a convert, having become Orthodox 2 years ago, after 20+ years as a Baptist.

There are links to some good "Orthodoxy 101" articles on my web page: http://stienekel.tripod.com/

I hope you find them useful. Please feel free to ask us anything you want to know about Orthodoxy!

LK

 

[moses916]

i dunno if this'll help but these sites are good (in my opinion) enjoy

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/index.aspx

http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/ http://www.goarch.com

 

[Theophorus]

I was at this same cross roads awhile back. Though the Pope and the immaculate conception were dilemmas for me, the deciding factor was Vatican 2. In Orthodoxy, even though there might be squabbles here and there, the integrety of the Orthodox liturgy has remained intact for centuries. Vatican 2 has destroyed that in my opinion, and in many Catholic's opinion also.

It is in the liturgical practice of the Church that its theology manifests itself. It is its form that establishes the tone and perspective of worship. It is the summation of the religious experience between the people, clergy and our Lord. Everything revolves around the Pascha/ liturgy. It is a "vehicle" for grace. It is being in the presence of the Lord and giving and receiving from Him.

When looking at all of the arguements for and against the novos ordo, again for me, it came down to a display of humility, which the novos ordo order lacks in many cases, and in my mind demostrates the arrogance of the times in which it was adopted. This applied to the Anglicans also, who would have been my first choice when leaving protestantism.

 

[salival]

Thank you everyone for all the replies/recommendations. Much apreciated!

 

[salival]

Hello all,

Is there around a site that outlines the dogmas of the Orthodox Church? Do they hold infallible or De Fide dogmas like The Catholic Church?

salival

 

[Maximus]

Hello all,

Is there around a site that outlines the dogmas of the Orthodox Church? Do they hold infallible or De Fide dogmas like The Catholic Church?

salival

Yes. All of the dogmatic decrees of the Seven Holy Ecumenical Councils of the Orthodox Catholic Church are binding upon Orthodox Christians, but especially the Symbol of Faith, the Nicene Creed, begun at the Council of Nicea in 325 and completed at the Council of Constantinople in 381.

To me one of the biggest differences between Latins and the Orthodox is our differing views of authority.

When Latins speak of "the Church," they really mean the current hierarchy in communion with and including the Pope, which they call "the Magisterium."

For them, this Magisterium is infallible when it teaches on faith and morality. If anyone believes the current hierarchy is teaching something that contradicts past magisteriums, he must be wrong, because it is impossible for the current Magisterium to do such a thing.

Latins perform all sorts of intellectual gymnastics to maintain that doctrine.

For us Orthodox, all the people of God are the Church. We have no neat doctrine of an infallible pope or magisterium. It is the entire Church as a whole that is infallible.

Many hierarchs have failed and fallen into heresy, including some popes. At various times, the majority of the Church's hierarchy has been heretical, as, for example, in the mid-4th century, when the Arians were ascendant.

The true Church can be reduced to a pitifully small remnant, and has been so reduced in the past.

It is the duty of every Orthodox Christian to know the faith and defend it against heresy.

St. Paul told us to measure everyone and everything by the Gospel.

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach another gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema" (Gal. 1:8-9).

I recommend you read the book, Two Paths: Papal Monarchy - Collegial Tradition, by Michael Whelton.

 

[33ad]

Hi Salival,
I've been reading your thread on OBOB, and see that our RCC brothers and sisters have had a field day attacking us, while we have tried to be objective and to the point, without attacking their doctrines, merely listing differences.

So, if you have been observant, I think we can add another difference, humility.
I believe that I am a sinner in need of repentance. And any true child of God would feel the same. I feel much closer to my RCC brothers and sisters since I became Orthodox, than I do to my former Protestant friends.

At this time I also pray that God have mercy on the Soul of Pope John Paul II, for whom I have had nothing but the highest respect. He has truly tried to heal the rift between us.

We are not going to tell you who of us is right or wrong. That, ultimatly, is your decision between you and God.

We have merely pointed you to places for self study. You are welcome to ask us for clarification on anything that you don't understand.

God bless you.

In IC XC

Kolya

 

[Dream]

I've been reading your thread on OBOB, and see that our RCC brothers and sisters have had a field day attacking us, while we have tried to be objective and to the point, without attacking their doctrines, merely listing differences.

I don't think we've been having a "field day" attacking you. There was one objectionable post that was rebuked by myself and several other members of OBOB. I have apologized for this, as have others.

So, if you have been observant, I think we can add another difference, humility.

I sincerely hope you are not basing your views of an entire relgion of 1.1 billion people on the comments of a single person.