Looking for open debate on apologetics

[doubtingmerle]

I see the ramifications of your statements, and point them out to you; at least where they don't represent reality.

How do you know my statements have the ramifications that you make up? Could it be that my words actually mean what they say, not what you pretend they mean?

For instance, when I use the word "they" in context to clearly refer to Muslims, and you rip the phrase out of context, and then respond as though the word "they" refers to Christians, how does that have anything to do with promoting true understanding?

 

[razeontherock]

Please provide post # of your original statement.

 

[doubtingmerle]

everybody knew who wrote the Gospels, it's only modernism that gunkifies that.

If everybody knew who wrote the gospels, why do we not have a single person identifying those authors before 180 AD?

Do you even know why the Gospels were written down, or what purpose the content served beforehand?

Do you know why the first gospel writer (we call him "Mark" but we don't know his name) wrote his book? I don't. Was he intending it to be a novel? I don't know.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Please provide post # of your original statement.

What statement are you referring to?

 

[razeontherock]

Uh, the one we've been discussing.

How do you know my statements have the ramifications that you make up? Could it be that my words actually mean what they say, not what you pretend they mean?

For instance, when I use the word "they" in context to clearly refer to Muslims, and you rip the phrase out of context, and then respond as though the word "they" refers to Christians, how does that have anything to do with promoting true understanding?

Ring any bells?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Uh, the one we've been discussing.

Ring any bells?

You rang?

http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=bells&t=KJV
Strong's Number H6472 matches the Hebrew פַּעֲמוֹן (pa`amon), which occurs 7 times in 4 verses in the Hebrew concordance of the KJV

6472 pa`amon pah-am-one' from 6471; a bell (as struck):--bell.

 

[razeontherock]

If everybody knew who wrote the gospels, why do we not have a single person identifying those authors before 180 AD?

Hogwash.

Do you know why the first gospel writer (we call him "Mark" but we don't know his name) wrote his book? I don't. Was he intending it to be a novel? I don't know.

Obviously you don't know; thanks for that much. Yes, it is well known that ALL the books of the NT were written for use in Church Services. (With the lone exception of Revelation, which was also the lone book currently accepted by all that was ever in dispute) They were written after being used regularly for DECADES. It was only new Churches that wanted these written down, because they weren't used to leading Church services and didn't want to screw it all up. Writing it down was a concession, and seen as less reliable than face-to-face communication. How times have changed, eh?

So all the modern "bible scholarly" ideas, are really pretty laughable.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Uh, the one we've been discussing.

Ring any bells?

We have been discussing a lot of different things.

That particular post was post 50.

 

[razeontherock]

Yes we have been talking about a lot of things. I'm focused, and intense. I relate on one point until it's concluded. You asked "how are my comments helpful," re: this post:

When I was a Christian, I met many people who siad they had a hope in things that I, as a Christian, considered to be wrong. Having learned from scientific studies that the basis of their hope often had more to do with their identification with caring individuals in a community, rather than due to the specifics of their religion, I thought it would be good for them to understand that it might not be the specifics of their religion that was making them happy, but rather, the feeling of community.

That's your whole paragraph, which isn't at all necessary to point out what I'm responding to. In context, it's just wrong to pretend your concept might apply to one group and not another.

RED HERRING

The concept applies equally as well to Christians, which unlike the other groups, is something I actually have first-hand experience with. Is it really so difficult for you to comprehend why I would talk about that, and not about something I ... can't speak to?

And the scientific studies can in no way differentiate btw the Power of G-d, as compared to social benefits. So let's conclude that point somehow before moving onto everything under the sun, ok?

 

[twob4me]

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[razeontherock]

Bump.

Can our "thinker" process any of this?

 

[doubtingmerle]

Oh, I see now this thread is open again. Let's continue.

If everybody knew who wrote the gospels, why do we not have a single person identifying those authors before 180 AD?

Hogwash.

Uh, I asked you a question. How can "Hogwash" be an answer to that question? Do you intend to just ignore the question?

Once more, why do we not have a record of a single person identifying those authors before Irenaeus did in 180 AD?

Do you know why the first gospel writer (we call him "Mark" but we don't know his name) wrote his book? I don't. Was he intending it to be a novel? I don't know.

Obviously you don't know; thanks for that much. Yes, it is well known that ALL the books of the NT were written for use in Church Services. (With the lone exception of Revelation, which was also the lone book currently accepted by all that was ever in dispute)

Uh, excuse me, but how do you know that is why Mark wrote his gospel? Where did you get your information?

And even if Mark did write his gospel to be used in church services, how does that prove it was not fiction? After all, when I grew up in Sunday School, they often told us fictional modern-day stories to illustrate a moral lesson. Could it be that Mark was doing the same?

The first list on record that includes either all 27 books of the New Testament or all 27 minus Revelation was the list by Bishop Cyril in 350 AD. We have several lists before then, but not one of those matches the two lists you describe. If the only 2 choices were the 26 book New Testament canon or the 27 book canon as you suggest, why does not a single person list either of those lists before 350 AD?

They were written after being used regularly for DECADES.

Oh, please, what is your evidence that Mark was used for DECADES before it was written down?

So all the modern "bible scholarly" ideas, are really pretty laughable.

No, I am sorry, modern Bible scholars ask many important questions. Are you even familiar with what they wirte?

 

[doubtingmerle]

When I was a Christian, I met many people who siad they had a hope in things that I, as a Christian, considered to be wrong. Having learned from scientific studies that the basis of their hope often had more to do with their identification with caring individuals in a community, rather than due to the specifics of their religion, I thought it would be good for them to understand that it might not be the specifics of their religion that was making them happy, but rather, the feeling of community.

That's your whole paragraph, which isn't at all necessary to point out what I'm responding to. In context, it's just wrong to pretend your concept might apply to one group and not another.

In that paragraph I was indicating that there were non-Christian ideas that were being promoted as truth because they "worked", when it appears that the reason those non-Christian ideas "worked" was because the participants were part of a caring community.

Being an active part of a caring community usually makes people feel better than doing nothing. The fact that the community spirit does this does not prove the underlying doctrines of the community are true.

The concept applies equally as well to Christians, which unlike the other groups, is something I actually have first-hand experience with. Is it really so difficult for you to comprehend why I would talk about that, and not about something I ... can't speak to?

Yes, the concept applies to Christianity also. Could it be that when people claim wonderful benefits from being a Christian, they are actually experiencing the wonderful benefits of being an active member of a caring group? Could they have experienced the same things if they became an active member of a very different community that had a different religion?

 

[doubtingmerle]

And the scientific studies can in no way differentiate btw the Power of G-d, as compared to social benefits. So let's conclude that point somehow before moving onto everything under the sun, ok?

Interesting point.

I would think science could make that difference, but let's assume for a minute it cannot. If that is so, then how can you differentiate that the experience you receive in Christianity is truly due to the power of God, and not due to being an active member of a caring community?

 

[elman]

Interesting point.

I would think science could make that difference, but let's assume for a minute it cannot. If that is so, then how can you differentiate that the experience you receive in Christianity is truly due to the power of God, and not due to being an active member of a caring community?

Why would one assume the experience one receives from a caring community would not be from the Creator of that community?

 

[BleedingHeart]

I am looking for a Christian forum on the web that encourages open debate between Christians and skeptics. Does anybody know of a site like that?

Not this one. I do know that. Generally, there is to be no arguing your case unless you are a Christian and even then you can't argue against the sites Statement of Faith that the Holy Trinity is true and that Jesus was mortal. It is very clear that the main point of the Christian forums is not to argue the case but to reinforce preexisting beliefs in other Christians.

 

[Ih8s8n]

Could it be that when people claim wonderful benefits from being a Christian, they are actually experiencing the wonderful benefits of being an active member of a caring group?

doubtingmerle: Yes.

Could they have experienced the same things if they became an active member of a very different community that had a different religion?

Probably so. And? Look, I know exactly what you're talking about. I've been a Christian for 22+ years and I've been in church settings, conferences, retreats, etc., etc. hundreds of times. Not lately, though. In fact, if I had to give an educated guess, then I'd guess that I've only stepped foot in one of those types of settings about 10 to 12 times in the last 10 years and some of those "foot steppings" were for either weddings or funerals. One of the reasons that I stopped going to church (not the main reason...not even close) is because I found the churches that I attended or visited to basically be "glorified" social clubs. You know, the whole "family" got together, shared a few light-hearted things (I was EXTREMELY hard-pressed to find anyone who wanted to talk about CHRIST...I repeatedly got the strangest looks whenever I tried to talk about HIM), sat attentively as "granpa" (the pastor who was only telling "nice ear-tickling stories") got up and did his thing and then all went out to the diner for some good grub. Wash. Rinse. Repeat. Sound about right? That was my experience...time and time and time and time again over about a 12 year timespan. Don't miss it in the least. However, I'm still TOTALLY DEVOTED TO JESUS CHRIST. How is this possible, apart from the aforementioned "community" (I'm all for church, by the way, if there's one that's even remotely close to the type of church that I read about in scripture or at least attempting to be such)? Easy. Biblical Christianity is all about KNOWING GOD/CHRIST. You know, all of those marriage type analogies where "the two (God and man) become one". Jesus said it best:

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

This is BOTH Christianity and eternal life. Knowing God. Knowing Christ. Being truly born again from above and indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

This, sad to say, is what you apparently missed. Your observations of "community" and how it can positively affect someone APART FROM GOD are correct, as far as I'm concerned. However, such "community" could also be available WITH GOD...if you can find some Christians and not the aforementioned "socialites". Anyhow, whereas some of your observations apparently led you to leave what you perceived to be "Christianity", my observations merely led me out of the social network called "the church" (Again, I don't believe that church is supposed to be this way, only that it ofttimes is). Yes, this observation and other things of even more grave concern "forced" me to start preaching on the streets. Anyhow, I still find fellowship with Christians who aren't playing games from time to time. Beyond that, I find fellowship with CHRIST HIMSELF DAILY. This, my dear friend, I'll NEVER walk away from.

Take care.

 

[Ih8s8n]

doubtingmerle: I'm going to be very busy for the next 3 days, so I probably won't be able to converse with you during this timeframe. Can I ask you a direct question, though, and I'll check back for your answer when I'm able?

Why do you start such threads as this one? Is it because you're still hoping that Christianity (I really should say CHRIST...much of what professes to be Christianity is false) is true or is it because you want to convince others that it is totally false?

Please answer this for me when you have the time. Thanks.

Take care.

 

[razeontherock]

modern Bible scholars ask many important questions.

I'm not contesting that. I'm saying their source is not what we should base our Faith on.

 

[razeontherock]

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

To develop what my Brother was saying here, Church STARTS with people experiencing this! Then they commune together. This becomes what Elman referred to.

Not easy to find, but oh SO worth the effort!