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[Naomi4Christ]

Do you not believe that these clergymen were “fearfully and wonderfully made”, in the image of God?

Are they God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus, to do good works, which God prepared in advance for them to do?

Just spend a few minutes reflecting on this.

 

[seeking.IAM]

I suppose each of us has that thing that becomes a "stopper" as we consider church affiliation. Truth be told, I am somewhat conflicted about TEC's stance on LGBT issues. On one hand the Bible says what it says. On the other hand there are LGBT people in my parish who I like and who most would agree are devout and sincere Christians if it was not for that one thing in their life. I was preacher's kid long enough to know we already have other sinners in the pulpit, including the unrepentant.

The bottom line, I suppose, is that there are other issues that were more important "stoppers" for me than this. For example, I am strongly against closed communion. I disagree with re-baptism. I don't believe in the immaculate conception, the assumption of Mary, purgatory, or church hierarchy sweeping clergy's child sexual abuse under the rug. Therefore my list narrowed greatly. Gone from it were RC, EO, & LCMS. And there were things that attracted me, most notably the beautiful liturgy and worship opportinity TEC provides.

I think I am not going to be judged by what my church believes, but for how I live and act. I encourage OP to carefully consider her "stoppers." Is this her most important one?

 

[Albion]

I suppose each of us has that thing that becomes a "stopper" as we consider church affiliation. Truth be told, I am somewhat conflicted about TEC's stance on LGBT issues. On one hand the Bible says what it says. On the other hand there are LGBT people in my parish who I like and who most would agree are devout and sincere Christians if it was not for that one thing in their life. I was preacher's kid long enough to know we already have other sinners in the pulpit, including the unrepentant.

Not make too big an issue out of it, but I think the point may be that the church is not teaching that theft, murder, or blasphemy, for example, are good to engage in and that the church is firmly against anyone who might suggest that these are sins.

 

[Naomi4Christ]

In my fellowship, we simply do not have the energy to worry about SSA. We are far more concerned with mission and discipleship.

If you came to our church and asked about our views/policies/teaching on SSA, there would be a sea of blank (and bewildered) faces. And we are evangelicals, if that makes a difference.

 

[Albion]

Social Security Administration?

 

[seeking.IAM]

Not make too big an issue out of it, but I think the point may be that the church is not teaching that theft, murder, or blasphemy, for example, are good to engage in and that the church is firmly against anyone who might suggest that these are sins.

I have never heard my church teach that SSA is good to engage in either. We tend to talk about other stuff. Jesus for instance. Imagine that.

 

[Naomi4Christ]

Social Security Administration?

Que?

 

[Albion]

I have never heard my church teach that SSA is good to engage in either. We tend to talk about other stuff. Jesus for instance. Imagine that.

I assume that you are speaking of your local parish.

 

[Paidiske]

Social Security Administration?

Same sex attraction.

As for my parish, the reality is that they're deeply divided. On the one hand I have some folks who are deeply angry at what they see as the church's rejection of the full humanity of queer people, on the other hand I have someone who yelled at me that I was "justifying Satan" when I suggested that, in the wake of the same-sex marriage debate in Australia, the church needed to reach out to people who were hurting (and I didn't specify only on one side of that debate!)

What I am grateful for is that despite that deep division on this question, we are still able to worship together, to be a genuine community which cares for one another. It suggests that love is stronger than our darker impulses.

 

[Naomi4Christ]

Same sex attraction.

As for my parish, the reality is that they're deeply divided. On the one hand I have some folks who are deeply angry at what they see as the church's rejection of the full humanity of queer people, on the other hand I have someone who yelled at me that I was "justifying Satan" when I suggested that, in the wake of the same-sex marriage debate in Australia, the church needed to reach out to people who were hurting (and I didn't specify only on one side of that debate!)

What I am grateful for is that despite that deep division on this question, we are still able to worship together, to be a genuine community which cares for one another. It suggests that love is stronger than our darker impulses.

You’ve had a public debate and referendum, iirc?

Here SS marriage whizzed through parliament. It wasn’t even on the election manifesto, so there was no dialogue. It just happened. A similar thing is happening now with gender fluidity.

With very little talk in the secular world, there isn’t much for churches to respond to.

It’s a topic that is not the hearts of those who are not directly involved.

Any church fellowship should be a family where you love one another, warts and all. And I think most church families are like this.

 

[Paidiske]

Not a referendum, exactly, because the government wasn't bound to act on the outcome, but a public debate and postal ballot, yes.

I tried to keep it very low key in this parish, because the process was not healthy (quite apart from the outcome), but it was a very big deal in Australia more broadly.

 

[Naomi4Christ]

Not a referendum, exactly, because the government wasn't bound to act on the outcome, but a public debate and postal ballot, yes.

I tried to keep it very low key in this parish, because the process was not healthy (quite apart from the outcome), but it was a very big deal in Australia more broadly.

We have a stereotype of Aussie men as being very macho/patriarchical (eg from Fosters/XXXX ads). Is there any truth in this, and could it have risen the profile of the debate? Here in the UK, we don’t talk too much about private matters, so it was easy for there to be no debate. It’s not something we would raise around the dinner table.

 

[Paidiske]

We have a stereotype of Aussie men as being very macho/patriarchical (eg from Fosters/XXXX ads). Is there any truth in this, and could it have risen the profile of the debate?

Hmm. Not compared to where I come from (in South Africa). Afrikaner men leave Aussie men for dead in terms of macho patriarchy. I think that stereotype is more about your stereotypical beer drinker than your stereotypical Aussie.

Here the debate was framed largely as a push for equality and the recognition that all people are equally valid and worthy (on one side), and the push for tradition/family values/religious freedom/anti-political correctness on the other side. Both sides were out campaigning in force, so you didn't need to raise it around the dinner table; you had to live as a hermit with no internet and no media for months, to escape it!

 

[gordonhooker]

We have a stereotype of Aussie men as being very macho/patriarchical (eg from Fosters/XXXX ads). Is there any truth in this, and could it have risen the profile of the debate? Here in the UK, we don’t talk too much about private matters, so it was easy for there to be no debate. It’s not something we would raise around the dinner table.

Real Aussie men don't drink Fosters XXXX yes...... and other beer names depending on your state of origin.

 

[Albion]

Same sex attraction.

Thank you. I thought the A there might be Affection or Acts or something else.

But same sex attraction has never been the issue with this controversy. That being so, I don't think that talking as though it actually is the issue (not you, but other people) is not helpful IMO.

 

[seeking.IAM]

I assume that you are speaking of your local parish.

You are wrong about that, but I suppose my experience is limited. I have only been Episcopalian for 10 years or so. In that time, I've worshipped in only about 7 parishes in different cities. What I hear on Sunday morning is a liturgy, the Gospel, and sermons expounding on that Gospel. You may be speaking about what a national church decides vs. what actually happens in any parish on a Sunday morning.

Granted I have worshipped with other denominations where the message is more about social justice, equality, and social issues than about Jesus. That simply has not been my experience in TEC.

 

[SeekingServant]

I suppose each of us has that thing that becomes a "stopper" as we consider church affiliation. Truth be told, I am somewhat conflicted about TEC's stance on LGBT issues. On one hand the Bible says what it says. On the other hand there are LGBT people in my parish who I like and who most would agree are devout and sincere Christians if it was not for that one thing in their life. I was preacher's kid long enough to know we already have other sinners in the pulpit, including the unrepentant.

The bottom line, I suppose, is that there are other issues that were more important "stoppers" for me than this. For example, I am strongly against closed communion. I disagree with re-baptism. I don't believe in the immaculate conception, the assumption of Mary, purgatory, or church hierarchy sweeping clergy's child sexual abuse under the rug. Therefore my list narrowed greatly. Gone from it were RC, EO, & LCMS. And there were things that attracted me, most notably the beautiful liturgy and worship opportinity TEC provides.

I think I am not going to be judged by what my church believes, but for how I live and act. I encourage OP to carefully consider her "stoppers." Is this her most important one?

Thank you for your respectful response. I too have looked at some "stoppers" and LGBT issues aren't nearly at the top of my list as other things like preaching politics from the pulpit (you never know who may be listening or what they believe). I have decided after much contemplation that I will go with the Episcopal Church, as it has more freedom and will be more accepting of my husband, as a Buddhist. I think that I will from time to time wish to experience worship in an Eastern Orthodox or RC church, but I know that TEC is a pretty good place and it does depend on the parish. I may not be received next year, but I do wish to be received perhaps the year after, once my husband and I have moved our family to a permanent home and found a parish our family enjoys. I have found that TEC and the BCP have helped me in my prayer life as well as being able to teach my children about God and Christ Jesus. My oldest son (almost 9) has memorized the first part of the morning prayer for individuals and families out of the BCP. It is really helping form their faith. That is all that matters to me.

 

[Naomi4Christ]

Thank you for your respectful response. I too have looked at some "stoppers" and LGBT issues aren't nearly at the top of my list as other things like preaching politics from the pulpit (you never know who may be listening or what they believe). I have decided after much contemplation that I will go with the Episcopal Church, as it has more freedom and will be more accepting of my husband, as a Buddhist. I think that I will from time to time wish to experience worship in an Eastern Orthodox or RC church, but I know that TEC is a pretty good place and it does depend on the parish. I may not be received next year, but I do wish to be received perhaps the year after, once my husband and I have moved our family to a permanent home and found a parish our family enjoys. I have found that TEC and the BCP have helped me in my prayer life as well as being able to teach my children about God and Christ Jesus. My oldest son (almost 9) has memorized the first part of the morning prayer for individuals and families out of the BCP. It is really helping form their faith. That is all that matters to me.

How can we be a missional community without talking about politics?

 

[Paidiske]

Transforming injustice is intrinsic to Christian mission, and that often intersects with politics. But I can understand why some people don't want to hear nothing but politics from the pulpit, as if the gospel were a matter of government policy but not the heart.

 

[Naomi4Christ]

Transforming injustice is intrinsic to Christian mission, and that often intersects with politics. But I can understand why some people don't want to hear nothing but politics from the pulpit, as if the gospel were a matter of government policy but not the heart.

Who said nothing but politics?