Looking for advice

[FireDragon76]

At church today I almost had a panic attack and I had to step out for the first half of the service. This is the second time this has happened to me.

I'm not sure what I really believe anymore, to be honest. I believe in Jesus, but I'm not sure I can be part of my congregation . My ethics are far more radical, and I'm critical of much of the "Christian tradition" in that area, of bourgeois morality, and I'm not sure where I stand in my congregation. I'm not sure I can remain a Lutheran in good standing. To be honest, I'm disgusted with American Christianity and the mediocrity and mental and spiritual laziness of many people. I feel like Lutherans are not "Red Letter Christians" enough, that it's cheap grace and mediocrity.

A few days ago I watched a video by a psychiatrist named Daniel Fisher talking about his own process of overcoming schizophrenia. He admitted to being an agnostic at one point, but he had such a profound authenticity to him that it really gave me pause. He seemed like a genuine caring and spiritual person who has caught onto some profound insights about reality through his own unique experience with himself and helping other people. It makes my own religion look cheap in comparison.

I'm worried my religion is committed too much to wooden dogmatism, pessimism, and discounts human experience. Especially after a conversation I had with my pastor convinced me that while he is a caring person, there is something missing in his character. I'm genuinely worried I am leaving behind my own authentic voice and becoming part of a herd in the name of conformity. I'm starting to feel my basic non-religious impulse is correct, and that I simply cannot find a way to be a Christian.

In addition, my prayer life has gradually been reduced to zero over the years. When I pray, it's like talking to a brick wall, and I stumble over something to say. I would like to get some spiritual advice but I don't know where to turn.

 

[Sam91]

Hmmm, my prayer life has suffered of late too. Are you reading His word?

Is it time to just stop and sit humbly in His presence? We are always in His presence. Just realise that we can't rely on our own understanding and just ask Him to help you find the way. Find the way to Trust in Him again. Proverbs 3:5-6

I do not know what to suggest. I'm sorry but I know God will answer your sincere prayers and will direct your steps. He will open the eyes of your heart and soften that heart. Romans 8 says nothing can separate us from the love of God and I am my worst enemy in making myself feel separated I guess. I know that God will lead me back, I will pray He shows you the Way too.

God bless you

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

At church today I almost had a panic attack and I had to step out for the first half of the service. This is the second time this has happened to me.

I'm not sure what I really believe anymore, to be honest. I believe in Jesus, but I'm not sure I can be part of my congregation . My ethics are far more radical, and I'm critical of much of the "Christian tradition" in that area, of bourgeois morality, and I'm not sure where I stand in my congregation. I'm not sure I can remain a Lutheran in good standing. To be honest, I'm disgusted with American Christianity and the mediocrity and mental and spiritual laziness of many people. I feel like Lutherans are not "Red Letter Christians" enough, that it's cheap grace and mediocrity.

A few days ago I watched a video by a psychiatrist named Daniel Fisher talking about his own process of overcoming schizophrenia. He admitted to being an agnostic at one point, but he had such a profound authenticity to him that it really gave me pause. He seemed like a genuine caring and spiritual person who has caught onto some profound insights about reality through his own unique experience with himself and helping other people. It makes my own religion look cheap in comparison.

I'm worried my religion is committed too much to wooden dogmatism, pessimism, and discounts human experience. Especially after a conversation I had with my pastor convinced me that while he is a caring person, there is something missing in his character. I'm genuinely worried I am leaving behind my own authentic voice and becoming part of a herd in the name of conformity. I'm starting to feel my basic non-religious impulse is correct, and that I simply cannot find a way to be a Christian.

In addition, my prayer life has gradually been reduced to zero over the years. When I pray, it's like talking to a brick wall, and I stumble over something to say. I would like to get some spiritual advice but I don't know where to turn.

The Church of Christ is not a denomination or a building but those that are obedient to His Word and seek to have a relationship with Him. Many people feel "stuck" in their faith and what they are being taught because of family tradition, complacency or fear of something different.
As far as prayer goes, it is important to make a concerted effort first thing in the morning and last thing at night to at the very least thank God for the blessings of the day, to forgive you of anything you know your done against Him or others and to ask for the Spirit to abide and to replace your carnal nature. God loves you and knows how you struggle at times so even if you aren't "feeling" it, make sure you kneel before the God of the Universe at least those two times a day. I do most of my praying as conversations with God in my head throughout the day. It's kind of like having an imaginary best friend but knowing that He is real and does hear you and answers you according to His will. You've heard the term, "fake it til you make it" and sometimes as Christians we need to do that with praying. The key is to not break the blessing by stopping... that leads to death of ones prayer life and thereby death to the relationship with God.

 

[Heart2Soul]

At church today I almost had a panic attack and I had to step out for the first half of the service. This is the second time this has happened to me.

I'm not sure what I really believe anymore, to be honest. I believe in Jesus, but I'm not sure I can be part of my congregation . My ethics are far more radical, and I'm critical of much of the "Christian tradition" in that area, of bourgeois morality, and I'm not sure where I stand in my congregation. I'm not sure I can remain a Lutheran in good standing. To be honest, I'm disgusted with American Christianity and the mediocrity and mental and spiritual laziness of many people. I feel like Lutherans are not "Red Letter Christians" enough, that it's cheap grace and mediocrity.

A few days ago I watched a video by a psychiatrist named Daniel Fisher talking about his own process of overcoming schizophrenia. He admitted to being an agnostic at one point, but he had such a profound authenticity to him that it really gave me pause. He seemed like a genuine caring and spiritual person who has caught onto some profound insights about reality through his own unique experience with himself and helping other people. It makes my own religion look cheap in comparison.

I'm worried my religion is committed too much to wooden dogmatism, pessimism, and discounts human experience. Especially after a conversation I had with my pastor convinced me that while he is a caring person, there is something missing in his character. I'm genuinely worried I am leaving behind my own authentic voice and becoming part of a herd in the name of conformity. I'm starting to feel my basic non-religious impulse is correct, and that I simply cannot find a way to be a Christian.

In addition, my prayer life has gradually been reduced to zero over the years. When I pray, it's like talking to a brick wall, and I stumble over something to say. I would like to get some spiritual advice but I don't know where to turn.

There is no denominational church in Christ....it is not about how you choose to do praise and worship, what doctrines you chose to establish as your foundation of beliefs, whether you confess your sins to the priest or just to God, how you dress, what you eat, and so forth and so forth....The Church...The Bride of Christ is made up of born again believers and followers/disciples of Christ, they are those who remain steadfast in their faith, who have laid the foundation with Christ being the cornerstone, those who are disciplined in obeying the Truth of His Word and continue to humble themselves and be led of the Holy Spirit into all truth and Revelation Knowledge of Him, and those who have been tested and tried by Fire and found to remain faithful, who have set aside all cares of the world and became separated from it, who walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh, who have overcome the sinful nature through obedience to do all that Jesus commanded to do, who ministered to the needs of others above their own, who Love God with all their heart and all their soul, who are baptized in the Holy Spirit, those who walk in the Power and Anointing of the Spirit evidenced by acts of miracles, signs and wonders...goodness....I am going to stop...their is more but I am tired....lol and keep losing my focus. But do you get the idea? God Bless

 

[PloverWing]

My ethics are far more radical, and I'm critical of much of the "Christian tradition" in that area, of bourgeois morality, and I'm not sure where I stand in my congregation. I'm not sure I can remain a Lutheran in good standing. To be honest, I'm disgusted with American Christianity and the mediocrity and mental and spiritual laziness of many people. I feel like Lutherans are not "Red Letter Christians" enough, that it's cheap grace and mediocrity.

Are there ways that you can act on your radical ethics within the Lutheran tradition, or within an interdenominational organization? I don't know exactly what your passion is, but actions like building houses with Habitat for Humanity, or feeding homeless people, or volunteering with an organization that helps immigrant and refugee families get settled into the US -- actions like this are ways of putting radical ethics into practice. The ELCA lists some social justice ministries here: Relief and Development.

Our church participates in the Interfaith Hospitality Network (IHN), which feeds and shelters homeless families. There have been times when my prayers felt like just talking to an empty room, listening for a God who was always silent; but it was my turn to cook for the IHN guests, so I took my pot of spaghetti to the church and fed our guests, and talked with them over dinner, and indeed Jesus was hungry, and I fed him, and I found God present there. I don't know where you most often find God, but I recommend this as one place to look.

What are the radical ethics you feel most driven to act on?

 

[FireDragon76]

Are there ways that you can act on your radical ethics within the Lutheran tradition, or within an interdenominational organization? I don't know exactly what your passion is, but actions like building houses with Habitat for Humanity, or feeding homeless people, or volunteering with an organization that helps immigrant and refugee families get settled into the US -- actions like this are ways of putting radical ethics into practice.

No, that's not quite what I meant. I'm still Lutheran in much of my attitudes, I just disagree with the "churchy" attitudes of the largely elderly people I am surrounded by. My ELCA congregation is very conservative by ELCA standards.

To give a better example of my ethics, our social statement on human sexuality (Human Sexuality: Gift and Trust) is filled with ideas that are as outdated as any medieval theology. I am perfectly OK with gay people and I no longer really desire to respect Christians "bound conscience" who feel differently about it. Gay people are not a "question" or "problem" that needs explanation or solution, and the fact that our denomination had to come up with this mealy mouthed nonsense just shows how irrelevant we are as an institution.

Gay people themselves have secured rights, they are free to engage in any behaviors they want in the privacy of their homes, free to marry, and they did it all without needing the "white knights" of mainline Protestantism. LGBT people do not need the Christian Church to have legitimacy, dignity, and self-respect, the Church is not the sole dispenser of dignity anymore, more often than not it is an obstacle to human freedom. Frankly, a heterosexual persons views of homosexuality no longer interests me, and it's insulting that "Aunt ELCA" thinks its opinion is anything but irrelevant religious theater.

I don't care about biblicism anymore, and I'm embarrassed alot of our denomination's theology still engages in it. I do not regard the Bible as objective, timeless truth. Yet Lutheran theology often bows to biblicism, even if it has nothing to do with the words of Jesus. We're supposed to believe what St. Paul said about something obliquely is "timeless truth"? I think not. Even theologians in the ELCA no longer believe this, so why not stop pretending and deal with real ethics as big boys and girls?

I don't even think marriage in a church is particularly holy or sacred. It's an invention of the medieval church to manipulate peoples lives. Yet our social statement never pointed out that reality. Frankly, our sex lives are not the Church's business. That's like returning to a pedophile for advice on raising a kid. It's sick.

I have started developing a real dislike for my pastor's preaching. I used to respect him as a person but now I just view his sermons as pedantic and wooden. They reek of inauthenticity, of ideas not personally tested against reality. I'm smarter than this. What is preaching for anyways? To "educate" me? That's insulting, frankly.

That's what I mean by "radical". I am pro-Jesus and anti-Church and anti-Christendom. I am still Lutheran in my overall orientation, but I seem to be moving beyond the wooden orthodoxy and minimalist piety that has been presented to me.

 

[archer75]

Good posts.

The best I expect from a congregation is that it offers a framework people rely on to keep themselves on the path to conforming to Christ. Some do, some don't. Juat like some kick in a lot of cash and some don't.

But you can get involved in something more radical if you want.

 

[PloverWing]

Okay, that gives me a better idea of what you're wrestling with. No easy answers here. The church has been divided and reluctant on all the civil rights issues of my lifetime, and that's been hard to watch.

 

[FireDragon76]

Okay, that gives me a better idea of what you're wrestling with. No easy answers here. The church has been divided and reluctant on all the civil rights issues of my lifetime, and that's been hard to watch.

Yes, it's painful. We are supposed to be salt and light but it seems like now days the Church is the last place you will find real salt and light as an institution. It's just politics and theater.

It reminds me of one sermon I heard from an Anglican priest years ago, he said that if Christians don't follow Jesus, that God would find people elsewhere. God doesn't need the Church to do his mission in the world. Christians are not special and we need to stop pretending to be the saviors of the world. We do not have a market cornered on ideas or values.

Making a difference in the world is what Christians should be doing, yet all we do is chip on the edges with a bit of dill and cumin when we need a human revolution.

Dr. Daniel Fisher is not a religious person, not a believer in God. But he seems to care about helping people. Yet traditional Christianity says only Christians really care about people, that there's something special about the Gospel that saves people and gives them new hearts. But this is naive and incomplete in my experience. A great many Christians are simply "nice" and "pious", but they are complicit in evil and damaging systems with no desire to escape them, the blind leading the blind.

 

[DW1980]

At church today I almost had a panic attack and I had to step out for the first half of the service. This is the second time this has happened to me.

I'm not sure what I really believe anymore, to be honest. I believe in Jesus, but I'm not sure I can be part of my congregation . My ethics are far more radical, and I'm critical of much of the "Christian tradition" in that area, of bourgeois morality, and I'm not sure where I stand in my congregation. I'm not sure I can remain a Lutheran in good standing. To be honest, I'm disgusted with American Christianity and the mediocrity and mental and spiritual laziness of many people. I feel like Lutherans are not "Red Letter Christians" enough, that it's cheap grace and mediocrity.

A few days ago I watched a video by a psychiatrist named Daniel Fisher talking about his own process of overcoming schizophrenia. He admitted to being an agnostic at one point, but he had such a profound authenticity to him that it really gave me pause. He seemed like a genuine caring and spiritual person who has caught onto some profound insights about reality through his own unique experience with himself and helping other people. It makes my own religion look cheap in comparison.

I'm worried my religion is committed too much to wooden dogmatism, pessimism, and discounts human experience. Especially after a conversation I had with my pastor convinced me that while he is a caring person, there is something missing in his character. I'm genuinely worried I am leaving behind my own authentic voice and becoming part of a herd in the name of conformity. I'm starting to feel my basic non-religious impulse is correct, and that I simply cannot find a way to be a Christian.

In addition, my prayer life has gradually been reduced to zero over the years. When I pray, it's like talking to a brick wall, and I stumble over something to say. I would like to get some spiritual advice but I don't know where to turn.

Hi

I have a couple of suggestions, I don't intend any of this to be condescending or "preachy". I hope this doesn't come across that way.

You used the phrase "I'm worried my religion...". Jesus did not die to bring us a religion, but forgiveness and intimacy with God. Church is a community which should help us on that journey. So can I suggest taking a bit of time out, and going "back to basics". I'm thinking about your "brick wall comment", I know that one well.

Take some time with God, pray through anything you need forgiveness for, confess any sin so that there are no barriers - ask the Holy Spirit to show you what to repent of. Then spend some time reading some passages in the Bible, maybe Psalm 34:18, Psalm 145:18, Acts 17:26-27. These remind us that God is close to us, however we feel about it. Take a little time to vent, pour out your frustrations, even if it's anger at God (he already knows you are thinking it, and values your honesty over religious pretense). Then, just rest, ask him to speak, and just listen. Hear what God thinks about you, test everything you hear against Scripture. So for example, if you heard condemnation, you know Romans 8:1 says that there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus, so discard that.

If you are struggling to hear, ask the Holy Spirit what is stopping you hearing. Ask him what walls need to come down, and to help you do that, "brick by brick".

I believe that with God, what he really wants is that relationship and intimacy with you.

As for your Church, once you have made that "re-connection" with God, pray for your Church, your pastor, and then maybe go and have a chat with him. There is no perfect Church, in fact there are some senior leaders in my denomination that I seriously disagree with. But I look at my congregation, and see a group of people who love God, and are trying to follow him. As flawed as we all are, I can see the heart of the people in the Church seeking God.

It could be that God has a role for you in that Church. Or maybe you do need to look at another Church - but "no Church" isn't an option (Hebrews 10:25). If you are feeling out of touch with your Church, your pastor should listen to your concerns, maybe start by trying to understand why things are the way that they are. There may be a reason?

Praying for you

 

[FireDragon76]

It probably sounds like I am completely disgusted with my church, but in some ways I am not. Its been an important part of my life the last few years and I came from a very fragile place. But I feel like I'm no longer growing spiritually. It feels like I'm being asked to sacrifice my integrity too much.

I do feel like there is a barrier of some kind in my life, but I don't know how to get past it. I'm even having trouble talking about my feelings sometimes.

 

[FireDragon76]

It could be that God has a role for you in that Church. Or maybe you do need to look at another Church - but "no Church" isn't an option (Hebrews 10:25). If you are feeling out of touch with your Church, your pastor should listen to your concerns, maybe start by trying to understand why things are the way that they are. There may be a reason?

Why is "no church" not an option? It seems to me that I look around and I see that organized religion can potentially be very destructive to someone who is intelligent and sensitive. I'm looking for a way to integrate my desires to be a person of integrity, with spirituality. And I'm not sure how the Church fits into that. I go to church and I listen to my pastors sermons and I'm not sure anymore what I'm suppossed to be hearing in them. They seem to be aimed at somebody else and speak another language altogether.

 

[Mustaphile]

I'm looking for a way to integrate my desires to be a person of integrity, with spirituality. And I'm not sure how the Church fits into that. I go to church and I listen to my pastors sermons and I'm not sure anymore what I'm suppossed to be hearing in them. They seem to be aimed at somebody else and speak another language altogether.

It is important to maintain personal integrity. Without that, you become demoralized and vulnerable. First work on yourself, before you work on others. Gather your thoughts and discern for yourself what you believe, and separate that from what you've been told to believe. Tear down the false and rebuild anew. We are called to die on the Cross daily, so it is simply part of our redemptive process to have the old man die, and the new man be reborn. It is often at the moment of greatest suffering that this redeeming force comes into play.

Something you may need to examine though in all of this is how much you are projecting yourself onto others. The pastor may sound wooden, not because he is intrinsically wooden in his belief, but because your own faith has become wooden. We all have a propensity to externalize blame, but we should never forget our own moral agency. The source of power, the Temple of God, resides within us. Look within for where the change needs to occur.

 

[DW1980]

Why is "no church" not an option? It seems to me that I look around and I see that organized religion can potentially be very destructive to someone who is intelligent and sensitive. I'm looking for a way to integrate my desires to be a person of integrity, with spirituality. And I'm not sure how the Church fits into that. I go to church and I listen to my pastors sermons and I'm not sure anymore what I'm suppossed to be hearing in them. They seem to be aimed at somebody else and speak another language altogether.

Hi. The Bible states that we must not give up on our Christian communities. You need it, and we need you. The Bible never presents Church as an optional extra. It may be worth visiting other Churches to see how you get on?

 

[FireDragon76]

Thank you for the advice. @Mustaphile in particular was helpful.

I visited my therapist because I figured I needed someone to talk to, and I haven't done so in months. She said I needed to practice mindfulness every day for a few minutes, like focusing on my breathing. She said that would be helpful for me to be able to sort out my perspective from other peoples perspectives.

I've also read some other stuff about theology and that's helped me to put some things in perspective. I had been reading Kierkegaard and I found some of his philosophy/theology unnerving because he is very critical of nearly everything Christian, yet he is a compelling thinker. But I found a short book that puts his thought in perspective and helps me understand him better without uncritically accepting everything he has to say:

http://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1026&context=fac_dis

 

[Mustaphile]

I had been reading Kierkegaard and I found some of his philosophy/theology unnerving because he is very critical of nearly everything Christian, yet he is a compelling thinker.

Ultimately Kierkegaard turns to Christ for his principle. I like his idea of the 'leap of faith' being the only way that we can overcome our doubt when it comes to finding Christ through our reason alone. It is the act of leaping into the unknown and living by faith that we can come to appreciate the power of Christ.

Kierkegaard was a big influence for me, although I read very little of his writing. Most of what I learned, I learned through summations of his work.

One particularly interesting idea he conveyed to me was the idea of how we live our lives looking forward, but usually only understand them in looking back. While we are looking back though, we are no longer in the immediate experience of existence. So there is a balance between introspection and living in the moment. This rang true with my own experience of life. Often when I just experience life, without much introspection, it fills me with wonder and awe. Later I can look back on those moments and find the deeper meaning that my rational mind can then assimilate as a useful principle.

Life is a fascinating journey. The Existentialists interest in the mystery of life is what I empathize with. Each moment is a moment of discovery and gives me a reason to experience more.

 

[FireDragon76]

Unfortunately, my sense of anxiety at church has been getting worse. I've been going to wednesdays prayer services and suppers at church during Lent but it doesn't seem to get better. I feel more and more alienated from my religion, and this forum is not helping.

If I would be blunt, I no longer feel the goodness of my religion. It just feels alien to me. The stuff in the Bible doesn't inspire warm fuzzy feelings or peace. I believe in being a good person but I am not sure Christianity has the tools to help me do that. The people at my church are nice but I barely know them and I've only become friends with about two people.

This forum is little help at all. I cannot relate to the religious viewpoints here, for the most part.

My therapist says I need to focus more on working on mindfulness to deal with stress, anxiety, and panic. I have been trying to do that but I get nagging thoughts that its wrong to meditate and focus on my breathing. I used to do this years ago at one point and exploring Buddhism, and I feel guilty about doing it now. I feel bad because Jesus isn't good enough. I just hate being in my own skin now days, that's what it feels like.

 

[xpower]

Unfortunately, my sense of anxiety at church has been getting worse. I've been going to wednesdays prayer services and suppers at church during Lent but it doesn't seem to get better. I feel more and more alienated from my religion, and this forum is not helping.

If I would be blunt, I no longer feel the goodness of my religion. It just feels alien to me. The stuff in the Bible doesn't inspire warm fuzzy feelings or peace. I believe in being a good person but I am not sure Christianity has the tools to help me do that. The people at my church are nice but I barely know them and I've only become friends with about two people.

This forum is little help at all. I cannot relate to the religious viewpoints here, for the most part.

My therapist says I need to focus more on working on mindfulness to deal with stress, anxiety, and panic. I have been trying to do that but I get nagging thoughts that its wrong to meditate and focus on my breathing. I used to do this years ago at one point and exploring Buddhism, and I feel guilty about doing it now. I feel bad because Jesus isn't good enough. I just hate being in my own skin now days, that's what it feels like.

Take a break from this forum and relax. listen to some hymns or calming music, You are stressing yourself out. Talk to your friends about it and do something you enjoy. It is not good to have theological arguments all day, every day. And there noting wrong with using meditation to calm yourself.

I too was feeling anxiety sometime ago. I noticed that this forum was contributing to my stress. So I took a break from this forum And did something I found enjoyable. Take comfort in the love of Jesus and immense yourself in the beauty of world, God did make the world for us to enjoy. Go do something fun, eat your favorite food and relax. Keep it simple and Stop worrying and go news lite.

 

[Mustaphile]

I just hate being in my own skin now days, that's what it feels like.

I little line I created for myself after going through a particularly painful transformation in my life was, "Pain is the precursor to change".

It is through suffering that we find the impetus and direction for change. The idea of not wanting to inhabit your skin is consistent with the idea of your internal ideas no longer being able to inhabit the prior identity you had created of yourself. To break out of that is going to be a painful process, so I would embrace the pain as a good sign. You are changing. Metamorphising into something new.

The pain will give way to epiphany and release as you discover who you are in this new regenerated individual. Pain can signal to us that we are disconnected with reality. We might be hanging onto an idea that no longer agrees with our new perceptions.

A kind of related idea that has been a focus in my own life at the moment, is the concept of creating a space for something new to be generated from it. If you imagine a circle and the circle is 'full', then there is no room for anything to grow. If the circle shrinks back from its boundary, it creates a space into which new things can enter. They may be good. They may be bad. They will add a regenerative force to your current state though. You may in time eject the bad or integrate the good. The process of exploring this new space though is the creative aspect of yourself. We must allow the space if new things are to grow.

A bit of a ramble, but I hope it helps in some way.

 

[zippy2006]

I just hate being in my own skin now days, that's what it feels like.

I don't think doctrines and churches are the core problem. When someone is experiencing general dissatisfaction they often become contrarian, latching onto whatever is near and scapegoating. It's not unrelated to acedia and eventually to the vices of discord and contention.

I feel more and more alienated from my religion, and this forum is not helping.

The forum will never help with this.

My therapist says I need to focus more on working on mindfulness to deal with stress, anxiety, and panic. I have been trying to do that but I get nagging thoughts that its wrong to meditate and focus on my breathing. I used to do this years ago at one point and exploring Buddhism, and I feel guilty about doing it now. I feel bad because Jesus isn't good enough.

I think your therapist is correct, but the problem and the solution may both be deeper than they admit. If dialogical prayer is drying up for you, you should move into the contemplative tradition. I'm sure you know of authors that could take you there.