Looking for a pastor's insight

[christosdoulos]

First off, as you may (or may not) know, I am attending a Bible college here in Portland that is of a fine caliber. Their teaching is sound and lacks heresy. They also have a better grasp on Christian service than others schools I've attended/visited. However, this is the predicament I am in. According to page 31-32 of their student handbook, a student of the college cannot drink or use tobacco as long as they are enrolled in the school. Now I can understand if they want a dry campus, that I can agree with. However, the problem I have is that in Christianity there is this theme that alcohol = burn in hell. The same goes with tobacco use. If you smoke, that means you're going to burn in hell and no amount of God's grace will save you. (However, pride, greed, gluttony, etc, those aren't really discussed.) I was raised according to this system and I am now finding out what the Bible actually says about these things. Through this period of insight, I have become an advocate against this Christian system that teaches an agenda rather than the Bible. So, getting back to my situation. What do I do? I have no problem with having a few beers and enjoying my pipe on a nice rainy day, however, the handbook says "Don't do it." Do I listen to those rules despite the fact that they go against a lot of what I stand for? Do I leave the school because my presence there is supporting that system that I despise? Or do I stay at the school even though some of their principles go against how I am?

Am I taking this drinking thing too seriously? What do you think? I'd really be interested in your take on it.

-matt

 

[foundationguy]

Bottom line, it's something you need to decide, however, I would ask you to clarify one thing. Is their anti-drinking/smoking policy a school policy designed to keep the students out of trouble or do they link it with "being a good Christian"? There are many strong Bible colleges that have various policies, some against dating while in school, etc., but they are just rules to help the students stay focused.

I don't see a problem staying in a school if you don't fully agree with their rules as long as you are willing to submit and follow them. If they are teaching something you don't agree with as a fundamental necessity of the Christian life then you'll need to prayerfully consider your options.

I don't drink for several reasons, one is I just don't like it, the other is the desire to not cause someone to potentially stumble. I smoked for years before God convicted me to quit, but the conviction was about using cigarettes as a source of comfort outside of God and the fact that I was enslaved to them.

Now, isn't that clear as mud? Praying God gives you wisdom and discernment on what to do.

 

[christosdoulos]

Thanks for your help and very thoughtful advice. In response to your question, I imagine that the school would say that those rules are in place to help students focus, however, I believe that would be more of a political statement. What is more interesting is that if I were enrolled in the seminary, it's ok to drink. So it seems to me that they view those enrolled in undergrad as less mature (maybe) than the graduate.

 

[Vaudois]

Sounds like the school has a double standard to me. Even if a seminary student is legally (by Caeser's law) liscensed to slowly poison himself, the Bible standard still is "Your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit"....do you think the Holy Spirit will come to you when you are a "little drunk"? Consider Eli's sons.
Do you think God winks when he sees you puffing on your pipe, Him and you both knowing it destroys lung cells, and fuddles your head?

Consider what your priorities are, not your "rights"...God or your little habits of comfort.

 

[clonenomore]

christosdoulos,

I would like to add my input in sections:

First, should you continue to attend a school with policies that you do not agree with. We can't answer that -- only you can. Look inside -- has God called you to that specific school? It's possible that He has, and if so, could your thoughts on this policy be the reason? He wants you to open your mind to His teaching, and He may be preparing you to reach a certain segment of the populace. On the other hand, He may not want you there. Ask Him.

I was in a seminary that had a totally different belief structure that I do. However, this seminary is part of the denomination that I belonged to so I thought that was what I was supposed to do. After struggling with the decision to attend this prestigious seminary, God finally got through my hard head to tell me that He didn't want me there. He had other plans.

Second, as you are determining, there is nothing wrong with alcohol in and of itself. What is the problem is the abuse of alcohol -- an issue with many things (food, etc.). Alcohol, and other things, become a problem when they become a god to you. When all you can think about is tossing that next drink back. Alcohol can also be a problem if it becomes a "stumbling block" to others. Same with tobacco.

Look at the first miracle that Jesus performed. He turned water into wine at a wedding party so that the bridegroom wouldn't be embarassed. I know that others say that it wasn't fermented, it was only grape juice, but that is false. The wine in that day was fermented grape juice -- as it is today. Did Jesus partake of the wine? I don't know, but He did make the wine.

Consider the story of Levi, a Jewish tax collector. The tax collectors were hated because they were pretty bad dudes. But Jesus came to Levi and said "follow me". What did Levi do? He threw a kegger for Jesus! And Jesus attended! Again, did Jesus drink of the wine that was served? I don't know, but He was there.

I think that too often we try to build a wall around Jesus -- we want to mold Him into our vision of what society should be. Then we try to "sell" that to the world. But He's not that vision. We have to look at who Jesus really is, and what He did. That will be a part of how we see what we are to do.

Sorry for the long post, but I felt I needed to say these things.

 

[christosdoulos]

clone, don't apologize for the long post, I rather enjoyed it. How you stated the last part of your post is how I feel. Thanks for your words of wisdom.

Regarding Vaudios's post. I have already come to understanding regarding smoking and the use of alcohol and I have been confronted with the misinterpretation of I Cor 6 (which you quoted and misinterpreted in your post.) I'm not here to debate this issue. I could go on a long tangent, however I will spare myself myself the frustrations.

 

[Artos]

Sometimes we dont do things not just because
1 the institutions tell us not to,
2 nor just because we believe we shouldnt do it in our own lives....
but because it is a needful prophetic statement we make with our lives.

As a person preparing to serve the Lord in the ministry...(if it is ordination, it is a 'representative' ministry ie you represent your church and Christ to the world) one has not only be seen to be holy but seek to be so in all areas of one's inner life. Smoking isnt good for health. If the alcohol abuse rate in your city is rather high- then not having alcohol is a prophetic statement. No one starts out planning to be an alcoholic. Usually starts with social drinking. By not taking a drop during social occasions, you can help remove pressure from those who feel they HAVE to drink because EVERYONE is doing it (except that they cant really control their intake...)...

I dont drink nor smoke. As a Methodist pastor (not UMC) , we vowed not to do these....because it will affect our witness before people.

 

[Vaudois]

Amen, artos...And that's the point: my wants or others needs.

 

[Father Rick]

Matt...

First, scripture teaches to obey the authorities over you (unless they are telling you to do something that is directly contrary to scripture).

I understand you concern here, as I was in a very similar situation while doing my undergrad work.

The scripture that I used frequently during that time was 'all things are lawful, not all things are for the common good.' While I hate smoking personally, I enjoy a good glass of wine (or a "rum and diet"). I also have strong feelings about those who add to the commands of scripture and make our salvation based on man's rules that have nothing to do with what scripture actually says. However, I certainly wouldn't be violating any Biblical principles by abstaining for the sake of those there. Another passage by Paul states "if you eat meat and it offends your brother, then don't eat meat" (with the implication being--at least don't eat meat when your brother is around).

My advice would be to submit yourself to their rules for the time you are there. When you leave, you can enjoy the freedom in Christ that you know to exist. However, you don't want your positive testimony and influence there destroyed by something as small as a beer and a pipe.

 

[PastorJoey]

First off, as you may (or may not) know, I am attending a Bible college here in Portland that is of a fine caliber. Their teaching is sound and lacks heresy. They also have a better grasp on Christian service than others schools I've attended/visited. However, this is the predicament I am in. 1) According to page 31-32 of their student handbook, a student of the college cannot drink or use tobacco as long as they are enrolled in the school. Now I can understand if they want a dry campus, that I can agree with. 2)However, the problem I have is that in Christianity there is this theme that alcohol = burn in hell. The same goes with tobacco use. If you smoke, that means you're going to burn in hell and no amount of God's grace will save you. (However, pride, greed, gluttony, etc, those aren't really discussed.) I was raised according to this system and I am now finding out what the Bible actually says about these things. Through this period of insight, I have become an advocate against this Christian system that teaches an agenda rather than the Bible. So, getting back to my situation. 3)What do I do? I have no problem with having a few beers and enjoying my pipe on a nice rainy day, however, the handbook says "Don't do it." Do I listen to those rules despite the fact that they go against a lot of what I stand for? Do I leave the school because my presence there is supporting that system that I despise? 3b)Or do I stay at the school even though some of their principles go against how I am?

4)Am I taking this drinking thing too seriously? What do you think? I'd really be interested in your take on it.

-matt

Hi Matt, I may be able to help you some, 1) Bottom line you need to fall inline with the rules of the school (if God is sending you to that school). It would be a lack of personal integrity to sign the papers but go ahead and break the rules. 2) I'm just guessing, but probably the school isnt coming from a "going to hell" perspective on drinking or smoking (they shouldnt be). We need to grow up and become mature christians, which means we dont read the bible to find out how much we can get way with and still go to heaven. Or, base our lives on what will or wont "send us to hell". Its not about us!! We should be basing our decisions of life on how its effecting others around us. Is what were doing causing someone else to backslide? or resulting in them going to hell? 3) What do you do? Go to the dean of the school (set up an appointment) explain respectfully what youve just explained in your post (leave out the 'hell' and 'agenda' stuff). If they wont make an exception to the rule, then the next thing to ask yourself is "does God really want me here"? We must do what it takes to be in the will of God, even if it is unfair at times. Who said life was fair?
3b) Could it be that God isnt completely pleased with "how you am"?
4) Matt, I'm not going to tell you wether or not you should continue to drink or smoke. The issue is this school and whether or not your willing to do what it takes to follow Gods plan for your life.
Matt I am not trying to be tough, but you did ask for a pastors advice.
A friend is satisfied with who you are. A Pastor is only satisfied with who you are capable of becoming. If you have any more questions please feel free to pm me or post here. I'll be glad to talk.
Pastor J

 

[Dmckay]

When I was in Bible College, my wife and I would have many of the students over to our apartment (off campus) for dinner and fellowship. Very often the subject of the rules of conduct for students would come up. I was older than most of the other students, having spent several years in the military before the Lord called me to the ministry. As a result of my age, and because I was Pastoring a Church while attending the school, I would invariably be asked my opinion.

I would answer them in this manner. I would tell them that when I sent for an application and catalog for the school, one of the things that was also included in the information packet was the student handbook. This laid out very clearly what their expectations of each student, as representatives of Christ and of the school, were expected to obey. I would then ask them if this was the case for them as well. When they responded in the affirmative, I asked if they had done as suggested and read through the material before submitting the application. Then I would point out to them that the application they signed that had gotten them into the school had a final paragraph above the signature stating that they were aware of the material in the handbook and that they agreed, by signing their names to the application to abide by those guidelines.

I have taught in a number of Bible Colleges and Seminaries, and they all pretty much have the same type of requirements. As men and women of G-d we are ambassadors for Christ to accomplish His work. Yes, having a list of rules and regulations that you require the students to obey while attending the school is more in the nature of legalism than of walking in the Spirit, however, not all the students have the same level of spiritual maturity. Not all the students have ever had to develop the self-discipline to walk in a Christ-like manner. And often when a student falls into sin they take company along with them.

There are higher standards in the New Testament epistles for those who would serve in the leadership capacities within the Church. The more out-front you are in the ministry of the Church the greater the need for setting and maintaining a Christ-like example. I can't tell you the number of times that I have heard the statement, "I figure that if my Pastor can do . . . then so can I."

Yes, we have freedom in Christ and as Paul said to the Corinthians, "All things are lawful." However, Paul didn't stop there, he applied some guidelines, "but no all things are edifying, and I will not be controlled by anything." He also said whatever we do, we do it unto the Lord.

Does your occasional beer or bowl glorify Christ? Ask yourself what is the real problem that you have with the rules? Do you really feel like they are out of line or is it just that you chaff at the idea that someone may be judging your actions and pronouncing them wrong? Perhaps your attitude isn't quite what it should be in terms of being willing to take up your cross dailly and follow Him if these things are such an irritant.

I have found over the last 40 some odd years that the greatest discomfort that I have experienced in my Christian walk has come by trying to hold too tightly to those things that the Lord knew I would be much better off without. Once I opened my hand and let go, the problems straightened themselves out.

 

[surfs]

Hi Matt---I agree with the previous advice already given especially in not being a reason for others to stumble.There is a word that seems to have dropped out of usage in our present time--the word moderation.The Bible does not say don't drink, but condemns drunkeness,it does not say don't eat, but condemns gluttony,it does not say don't smoke but says our bodies are the temples of the Holy Spirit--ie we are to be stewards of our bodies and not do things that will damage them.As the college is biblically sound abide by the rules, get the training you need,pray for direction from God regarding these issues.I struggled as a young pastor over whether it was ok to drink at all until one Christmas I was invited to a family's home where the tradition was to have a glass of wine with the Christmas meal--in this case I did as I could see no conflict with scripture.At another time I was invited to the birthday party of a non-Christian student where other non-christians would be attending and drinking to excess--go or not and what to do if I did?I went as a friend to give birthday greetings,had a pepsi and left after a short time.There are many grey areas in scripture--it is not always clear what to do but in struggling for answers--prayer/reading scripture--we grow in our faith.--in Christ----Terry

 

[Babel Fish]

First off, as you may (or may not) know, I am attending a Bible college here in Portland that is of a fine caliber. Their teaching is sound and lacks heresy. They also have a better grasp on Christian service than others schools I've attended/visited. However, this is the predicament I am in. According to page 31-32 of their student handbook, a student of the college cannot drink or use tobacco as long as they are enrolled in the school. Now I can understand if they want a dry campus, that I can agree with. However, the problem I have is that in Christianity there is this theme that alcohol = burn in hell. The same goes with tobacco use. If you smoke, that means you're going to burn in hell and no amount of God's grace will save you. (However, pride, greed, gluttony, etc, those aren't really discussed.) I was raised according to this system and I am now finding out what the Bible actually says about these things. Through this period of insight, I have become an advocate against this Christian system that teaches an agenda rather than the Bible. So, getting back to my situation. What do I do? I have no problem with having a few beers and enjoying my pipe on a nice rainy day, however, the handbook says "Don't do it." Do I listen to those rules despite the fact that they go against a lot of what I stand for? Do I leave the school because my presence there is supporting that system that I despise? Or do I stay at the school even though some of their principles go against how I am?

Am I taking this drinking thing too seriously? What do you think? I'd really be interested in your take on it.


I'm glad that you are figuring this stuff out for yourself. alchol does not = burn in hell. Nor does any other sin. I hate it when traditional christians tell you how you should live. We are not saved by conforming to lists and formulas. We are saved by believing and following Jesus Christ. This is kind of the problem that I had with going to a christian school (and is one of the reasons that I didn't go). I too, have no problem with having a few beers and I know that I will not go to hell because of it. I think that you are on the right path. Just because the school says not to do something doesn't mean that they are right. And I wouldn't leave the school just because you despise this system. There are so many things that I despise about the school that I go to but I still feel that there are things that I can learn there as well.

 

[JamieGraham]

Ok - I can add a simple point to think about -
-Would you follow a "self claimed leader" that you dont believe in, like ro respect?
-Would you drink milk when you know you are allergic to it?
-Would you cheat on your wife or partner - because the guy's/gal's do it?
-Would you walk across a very busy street - still knowing where the cross walk is?

If you answered NO to any of these simple questions proceed.........

Then WHY would you go against your own true heart and will - just to follow those you totally seem to disagree with and clearly do not respect in some form?

Me? I would find another compatable school - not to buck the rules - there will always be rules and guidelines. Not to make up rules to suit a lifestyle of my liking -

BUT - to be true to myself and God.

It is your life - live it being true to yourself.......and God.