Logical Problems with Calvinism

[Thursday]

These are followers of Christ who have been saved by His blood a sacrifice for sin on the cross

This is talking about the Gentiles. That God predestined Jesus to the sacrifice for sin for BOTH Jew and Gentile. All.

That doesn't have anything to do with my point. The point is that God chose them based on his foreknowledge of their actions.

 

[ToBeLoved]

That doesn't have anything to do with my point. The point is that God chose them based on his foreknowledge of their actions.

Chose who in foreknowledge?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Absolutely false on many levels.

Scripture contradicts your assertion:

1 Tim 2:4
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Ezekiel 18:32
For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

Luke 13:34
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I have longed to gather your children together as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling.

PREACH my brother! Share God's Word that contradicts their position.

 

[Thursday]

Chose who in foreknowledge?

Those mentioned in the passage.

 

[ToBeLoved]

That doesn't have anything to do with my point. The point is that God chose them based on his foreknowledge of their actions.

That doesn't prove that point.

God knew that Adam & Eve may sin. That's why Jesus had to come

 

[tulipbee]

For context, this is what I said:
"By definition, His children ARE saved.

Jn 1:12 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
Gal 3:26 - For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus."

Your reference to Eph 1:4 reveals how much you've misunderstood the verse.

So, let's look at it.
"just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love"

OK, the first question is to whom does the "us" belong to? iow, who are the "us"?

Well, Paul clearly notes who the "us" are, in v.19a - and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe.

OK. So, the "us" of v.4 is the same "us who believe" in v.19.

So, Eph 1:4 does not claim that God chooses who will believe. Rather, He chooses believers.

Next question: what did he chose believers for? That is answered in v.4b - "that we would be holy and blameless before Him".

The International Study Bible Encyclopedia describes election as being chosen for special privilige and service. There are at least (as far as I've found) 6 different categories of what the Bible describes as being "the elect" or having been elected:

Jesus Christ Isa 42:1
elect angels 1 Tim 5:21
nation of Israel Amos 3:2
NT believers Eph 1:4
the 12 disciples, which included Judas, an unbeliever John 6:70
Paul Acts 9:15

Each and every category fits the ISBE description of "election". Even Judas was chosen for special privilege (being in the presence of the Messiah) and service.

So, the phrase "that we should be holy and blameless" doesn't refer to the status as being a believer, which is the common response from Calvinists, but the PURPOSE for which God chose believers in the first place.

We know this from the other verses that say basically the same thing; that believers have been chosen to be holy.

Eph 5:27 - and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.
Phil 2:15 - so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the universe
Col 1:10 - And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God To live a life worthy of the Lord is to be holy and blameless, obviously.
Col 3:5 - Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed,which is idolatry. It is only by putting to death these things that believers will become holy and blameless
1 Thess 3:13 - May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.

Please note that all of the phrases "holy and blameless" or "blameless and holy" are subjunctive moods and indicate that this is WHAT believers are SUPPOSED to be. Not that all of them will be. But are supposed to be.

So please don't try to argue that Eph 1:4 is God choosing who will be a believer because the phrase "holy and blameless" indicates a believer.

I've just proven from Scripture that being holy and blameless is the goal of the believer's life. It's what we are to be. As believers.

You just proven your own theology saying that 'us' is all those who are unable to save themselves th rough self free will superpower. Your wonder women show is old. But your verses are not related to your false claims. You're using the 'who' wrong and the past tense falsly. All that has already been covered here. Babble on if you like but please keep it short. Most of us are skipping over you long babbles.

 

[tulipbee]

It's a lot easier to troll than to actually engage the views of others.

I won't cover what has already covered here. The calvinists refute you a long time ago. Your aggressive repetition is trolling by the way.

 

[tulipbee]

Everything you've said is nothing but gibberish and gobbledygook.

You're only hurting yourself.

 

[tulipbee]

Let's just ignore it.

The wolves do it in packs.

 

[Thursday]

That doesn't prove that point.

God knew that Adam & Eve may sin. That's why Jesus had to come

Adam and Eve were judged for their actions, not their beliefs.

God did not want them to sin, but he knew that they would. They were free to obey or disobey.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Adam and Eve were judged for their actions, not their beliefs.

God did not want them to sin, but he knew that they would. They were free to obey or disobey.

Right. I wasn't disagreeing with that.

 

[tulipbee]

Adam and Eve were judged for their actions, not their beliefs.

God did not want them to sin, but he knew that they would. They were free to obey or disobey.

'None' means all disobeyed. They were unable to obey

 

[EmSw]

'None' means all disobeyed. They were unable to obey

Where did you get the were 'unable' to obey?

 

[FreeGrace2]

You just proven your own theology saying that 'us' is all those who are unable to save themselves th rough self free will superpower.

No, I just proved FROM SCRIPTURE that God chooses believers to be holy and blameless. Your statement is full of more gibberish. Please translate what "th rough self free will superpower" means. It has no meaning for me.

Your wonder women show is old.

Obviously, you haven't been paying any attention. Who brought up wonder women?

But your verses are not related to your false claims.

All you can do is make an attempt at cutesy comments, which have fallen flat. And you certainly have NOT proven anything you charge.

In fact, my post was directly from Scripture, which everyone here has noticed that you haven't even attempted to refute, or correct.

Why is that?

You're using the 'who' wrong and the past tense falsly.

What does " who' wrong" mean? It means nothing to me?

Is your post an example of what speaking in tongues looks like??

All that has already been covered here. Babble on if you like but please keep it short. Most of us are skipping over you long babbles.

Wow. The master of babbling charging me with babbling. lol

If my explanation of Eph 1:4 was incorrect, how come you didn't even try to make any corrections or refutation?

 

[nobdysfool]

Feel free to explain why these verses don't mean what they say.

I didn't say they don't mean what they say. They just don't say what you want them to say.

 

[Hoghead1]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I am having trouble with a moderator, Hammster, trying to unduly censor my responses here. Accordingly, I am not allowed to post that a problem with Calvin's concept of predestination is that it violates the NT emphasis on salvation for all. I stick with that comment. If Hasmmster or some other moderator wants to censor me again, they can. It says a lot about how poorly this whole site is managed.

 

[tulipbee]

Where did you get the were 'unable' to obey?

100% spiritualy dead means just that. A corpse is unable to desire ice cream after hearing the ice cream truck in the cemetery. Free will means you're 99% dead. That means the arminians can crawl out of the grave and do the Michael Jackson dance. We don't do thrillers. Arminiaism is not thrill for Jesus either.

 

[tulipbee]

No, I just proved FROM SCRIPTURE that God chooses believers to be holy and blameless. Your statement is full of more gibberish. Please translate what "th rough self free will superpower" means. It has no meaning for me.


Obviously, you haven't been paying any attention. Who brought up wonder women?


All you can do is make an attempt at cutesy comments, which have fallen flat. And you certainly have NOT proven anything you charge.

In fact, my post was directly from Scripture, which everyone here has noticed that you haven't even attempted to refute, or correct.

Why is that?


What does " who' wrong" mean? It means nothing to me?

Is your post an example of what speaking in tongues looks like??


Wow. The master of babbling charging me with babbling. lol

If my explanation of Eph 1:4 was incorrect, how come you didn't even try to make any corrections or refutation?

I corrected a poster on eph 1:4 on my past post. Why should repeat that to you?

 

[Hoghead1]

I can't say as I agree, Thursday. I believe that we all have free wills. That means God does not decide for us. The future is open-ended until we decide. Therefore I don't see how God could have any foreknowledge of us. Calvin did, but Calvin believed that God has predetermined everything and so there was no free will.

 

[EmSw]

100% spiritualy dead means just that. A corpse is unable to desire ice cream after hearing the ice cream truck in the cemetery. Free will means you're 99% dead. That means the arminians can crawl out of the grave and do the Michael Jackson dance. We don't do thrillers. Arminiaism is not thrill for Jesus either.

So, are you saying the unregenerate corpses are not able to keep from murdering? You should inform local authorities so they can stop these horrible beings God created.