Logical Problems with Calvinism

[Hoghead1]

What to you makes it a heresy? And is heresy the right word? All it has even meant is that one did not acre with the doctrines of a certain church; it says nothing about the truth or falsehood of t what the "heretic" has to say. Remember, Galileo was considered a heretic, so, too, Martin Luther, etc. So, what exactly is your case?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Quite right, Marvin, Calvin did argue all our decisions were predetermined by God. The problem, then, is that we really have no free will, no choice, as we can choose only as God preprogrammed us to choose. If we truly have free will, then Good cannot devised our decisions for us. Also, if you have read through his "Institutes," you will know that he actually mocks at the idea of free will, as did Luther in his "Bondage of teh Will."

One would wonder than why there are so many Christians who only go to church but otherwise don't incorporate God much into their lives?

 

[Cush]

What to you makes it a heresy? And is heresy the right word? All it has even meant is that one did not acre with the doctrines of a certain church; it says nothing about the truth or falsehood of t what the "heretic" has to say. Remember, Galileo was considered a heretic, so, too, Martin Luther, etc. So, what exactly is your case?

The case was made here: The Heresy of Universalism

 

[Hoghead1]

Interesting point, ToBeLoved. I want to be careful how I out this, but a lot of church members really are interested only in being part of a kind of glorified social club when they attend church. God forbid that you or the clergy should bring us something intellectual such as church doctrines, dogmas, etc.

 

[Hoghead1]

Cush, I would appreciate it if you would put this in your own words. I do not have the time to go gallivanting around, reading other sites. Furthermore, I am talking to you, not them.

 

[Cush]

God forbid that you or the clergy should bring us something intellectual such as church doctrines, dogmas, etc.

Amazing statement. Creeds and Confessions are there to prevent the body from being blown in every direction during cultural shifts. Lemme guess, your church has none?

Cush, I would appreciate it if you would put this in your own words. I do not have the time to go gallivanting around, reading other sites. Furthermore, I am talking to you, not them.

That poster is me. Read post number 3. Furthermore, don't address me anymore. I find it appalling that you even have "Protestant" on your profile.

 

[Hoghead1]

Cush, fact is, many churches say very little about theology, teh history of doctrines, the doctrines, etc. In my home church, a large urban church, we had a minister with a doctorate in Christian ethics. In the pulpit, he was very intellectual, talking about Luther, etc. The congregation continually complained he was talking over the heads, too intellectual, etc. Finally, he took up a fulltime teaching position. Many members said they were happy he had left, since they didn't want college lectures on Sundays. Unfortunately, that is all too typical in many churches today.
Next, you say you are surprised I call myself Protestant. I wonder why. Possibly you are coming out of a very conservative Christian environment. And that's OK by me. However, I work out of a liberal Christian perspective. Not all churches or Christians are on the right, nor should they be.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Quite right, Marvin, Calvin did argue all our decisions were predetermined by God. The problem, then, is that we really have no free will, no choice, as we can choose only as God preprogrammed us to choose. If we truly have free will, then Good cannot devised our decisions for us. Also, if you have read through his "Institutes," you will know that he actually mocks at the idea of free will, as did Luther in his "Bondage of teh Will."

The predestining by God of everything that happens in history, including all of the choices made by people, does not in any way equate to the so called "programming" of those choices.

No one says that men are pre-programmed to make the decisions that they make.

Those are your words.

Where do you get this stuff?

We are created in God's image. Thus we have free agency to decide what we will do. Everyone knows that.

But the wills of men are subject to the natures of men.

Our wills cannot be completely independent of what our nature dictates.

Duhhh!

That is what Calvin and Luther both argued.

You've been told these things many times and yet you continue to purposefully misrepresent the teachings of Calvinists concerning these things.

I just have to feel that you are a dishonest person because you continue to misrepresent what Calvinists believe - even after you've been corrected multiple times.

I guess you feel that the end justifies the means or something like that.

But the misrepresentation of what your brothers and sisters believe and teach is still sin - plain and simple.

Shame on you.

REPENT OF THIS SIN.

 

[St_Worm2]

...the NT introduces God as a loving God, and when you love someone, you don't condemn them to horrible punishments.

Hi Hoghead, while it's easy to focus on the attributes of God that we like best, you know, loving, gracious, kind, long-suffering, forgiving, etc., the problem is, God is no less holy, righteous, and just. Those last three attributes I mentioned are no less important, no less, "Him", than the "feelgood" attributes are, so a balance needs to be struck between all of His attributes to properly understand what any of them mean individually.

The other issue here is whether or not there is any hope for us. According to Calvin, the vast majority of the human race is doomed to eternal damnation. Only a tiny minority are saved and they are so few in number that Calvin says they probably do not meet up with each other in this lifetime. So, chances are that holds for us. But who wants to believe in such a hopeless situation.

I have no doubt that Calvin believes that few follow the narrow road to life, and that many follow the broad road that leads to destruction, especially since that sentiment is completely Biblical. However, I would be interested to know where Calvin tells us that we will probably never meet another Christian in this lifetime because there are so few of us around. Do you know if that comment can be found in his commentaries, or in Institutes, or in something else he wrote?

Finally, I can think of few situations where a proper assessment and understanding of God's word is not preferable to one which hides the truth from us. Quite frankly, those who run headlong down the "broad road" wouldn't have it any other way, and you and I both know that's true. It's not a matter of hopelessness for such people because, quite frankly, the Gospel means nothing to them and sadly, probably never will (1 Corinthians 2:14).

The ones who hear the broad/narrow road message and are bothered by it are the ones who probably need to hear it the most. They are perhaps ones who know and understand the Gospel, but who continue to steadfastly refuse to surrender their lives to Christ for some reason or another. They need to know that the "broad road" is hopeless before it's too late for them, and a watered down message might give them both a false hope and false assurance

Yours and His,
David

 

[Hoghead1]

It comes front the simple fact, Marvin, that in Calvin, it is God, not us, who decides all our decisions. Calvin is quite explicit on that point. We, for example, cannot choose to be reprobate or elect. God decided that for us all ahead of time. Calvin says again and again that absolutely nothing happens, save that God has predestined it, decided it all before hand.

 

[FreeGrace2]

However, I work out of a liberal Christian perspective. Not all churches or Christians are on the right, nor should they be.

Why shouldn't they be? Churches should be right, not wrong. And there is a whole lot wrong with the left.

Who's on the left? Communists, marxists, socialists. All of these systems suppress human freedom. And the first 2 are godless as hell.

Identify just one nation or government where communism, marxism or socialism succeeded in the eyes of the people.

Where did the blasphemous "Jesus Seminar" come from? The liberal LEFT.

But, thanks for informing us of where your perspectives come from. It does explain a lot. I would venture to say that most, if not all so-called Christian LEFT churches don't believe that one is saved by faith in Christ alone. Some don't even believe people need to be saved. They teach it's self centered to be concerned about where you'll spend eternity. Just leave that up to God, and be good. Feed the poor, clothe the naked, etc. They think God will just sort it all out. What garbage!! But exactly what delights satan. Keep people from the gospel.

Here's what the Bible says about God's view of all that:
John 6:40 - “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

Oh, and speaking of the gospel, these Christian LEFT churches preach a "social gospel", rather than THE biblical gospel, in which people actually get saved and will spend eternity with God.

Just for clarity, please tell us how a person gets to heaven. From your LEFT church's teaching. Thanks.

 

[tulipbee]

I said this:
"It's a lot easier to troll than to actually engage the views of others."

This is just a really obvious example of how to dodge questions and avoid any serious discussion.

The truth is that you won't cover what has already been covered because you can't. Or you would have.

I understand your complete unwillingness to engage my views substantively. And it's ok to admit it.

Well, you've clearly communicated that you consider me an unregenerate. Which is saying that I'm not saved. Which violates forum rules.

This is a debate forum, so it appears that you're out of your league, or in over your head. Which does explain WhY you would dodge rather than actually engage my posts. So, thanks for the info.


Once again, wrong again. I'm a male teaching anyone who reads my posts spiritual things of God.

Are you a female trying to teach others?

The debate idea creats trolls. I worship, not debate. I don't fight jesus like you.

 

[tulipbee]

You said that they had no ability to obey.

Why did God give them rules if it was pointless?

God knew you would think like adam . We don't tell God how to run the universe.

 

[tulipbee]

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Romans 11:32
For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

You just said no one goes to hell

 

[tulipbee]

It's been five hours and you have yet to produce any passages which state only the elect receive mercy.

Maybe Augustine can help you.

Who?

 

[FreeGrace2]

The debate idea creats trolls. I worship, not debate. I don't fight jesus like you.

Please prove your outlandish claim that I am or have fought Jesus. What a ridiculous charge.

Seems all your posts can do is make ad hominem attacks. Why? There are no substantive issues that you can refute.

 

[Thursday]

God knew you would think like adam . We don't tell God how to run the universe.

That's exactly what you are doing. You are claiming to know that God predestined some men to Hell. How terrible.

 

[Thursday]

You just said no one goes to hell

I said no such thing, I just quoted scripture.

The TRUTH is in scripture, which tells us that God's grace has appeared to all men and that God has shown mercy to all.

That doesn't mean that all men cooperate with God's grace or accept his mercy.

 

[tulipbee]

I said no such thing, I just quoted scripture.

The TRUTH is in scripture, which tells us that God's grace has appeared to all men and that God has shown mercy to all.

That doesn't mean that all men cooperate with God's grace or accept his mercy.

You're telling God that your are superman and you are not totaly depraved. The calvinist reads in the bible for themselves and learns sin is a lot worst than it looks.

 

[Thursday]

You're telling God that your are superman and you are not totaly depraved. The calvinist reads in the bible for themselves and learns sin is a lot worst than it looks.

I didn't tell God anything. I quoted scripture and you rejected the words of scripture and then decided to lean on your own understanding.