Logical Problems with Calvinism

[ToBeLoved]

Who is it that initiates, orchestrates and eternally maintains that relationship?

I think your questions should be more specific. These are so general
I'm not understanding your point

 

[ToBeLoved]

I believe you may have misunderstood @Marvin Knox. No one (on our side of this discussion) would be so bold to say that we are saved because of our theology, and we certainly wouldn't condemn anyone who didn't have the same understanding. Our hope is only to get others to understand why we view salvation the way we do.

You are saying that you are one of the ones that Christ CHOSE to save.

 

[EmSw]

Quick question, if God is Sovereign and decrees man to salvation and man rejects God... who is sovereign?

Please consider Sproul’s definition of autonomy: “To be autonomous means to be a law unto oneself. An autonomous creature would be answerable to no one. He would have no governor, least of all a sovereign governor. It is logically impossible to have a sovereign God existing at the same time as an autonomous creature. The two concepts are utterly incompatible. To think of their coexistence would be like imagining the meeting of an immovable object and an irresistible force. What would happen? If the object moved, then it could no longer be considered immovable. If it failed to move, then the irresistible force would no longer be irresistible.”

God bless,
Cush

God is sovereign in all things, and it does not depend upon any action by man. Just because man rejects God, it does not in any way, shape, or form diminish God's sovereignty one iota. If you say it does, then you give man power over God. So, does man have power over God? Apparently you think so.

To whom are you answerable?
Did you not have autonomous freedom to come onto this forum?
Do you not have autonomous freedom to choose which religious affiliation to adhere?
Do you not have autonomous freedom to believe as you wish?
Who is demanding you to be a Calvinist, or did you freely choose yourself?
Do you not have autonomous freedom to write about any belief you choose to hold in your heart?
Please tell us, who is threatening you if you don't do things his/her way.
Do you pray to God in every action you take to see if acceptable with Him?

Please answer these questions to see if you are sovereign over God.

 

[True Science]

That is a very good point, True Science. According to Calvin God predestined the elect and the reprobate. They have absolutely no choice in the matter. Hence, they cannot be responsible for their actions, which were also all predetermined by God. I agree this kind of predeterminism is completely unbiblical. Calvin pushed this far enough to claim that those who do evil do so because God predestined them to do so. Hence, they really can't be responsible either. Another problem here is that this led Calvinists to disregard the full reality of evil, by assuming evil is in mere appearance only, that it is all for the good. If evil befalls you, that is but a justified punishment. Calvin says that murderers, larcenists and other evil doers are the instruments by which the Lord executes his strict judgments upon us.

Yes, and would go as far as to say that any doctrine that has anything in it that has man required of him something which he has not the ability to do and is yet judged guilty unto the Lake of Fire is false as per what we have seen from our exegesis of Romans 1 and what it teaches. And this is something that is presupposed all over Scripture, and it is very clear why, man inherently knows this by nature according to the sense of justice God has formed within him, as Romans 2 confirms from the inspired Text.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I did not say, Freegrace2, that the Bible teaches nonsensical concepts.

From what you posted, that is what your post indicated.

Please do not put words into my mouth.

I'm only extracting the words that come out.

I also did not say the Bible states that anyone rejects their salvation. I see no evidence of that in Scripture. And so when it comes to nonsense, I am wondering if perhaps you might not have some nonsensical ides about the Bible.

Nope. I don't. But thanks for asking.

I view the Book of Revelation as a symbolic account of the Roman Empire and a hope that it will collapse soon.

Nope. It won't. Not until Christ returns and defeats the armies that have surrounded Israel

The Lake of Fire is interesting because fire can have a very positive meaning in Christendom.

NOT the lake of fire. It was created specifically for the devil and his angels. Matt 25:41. “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels"

Doesn't sound very positive to me. Not a lake I'd want to swim in.

The Christian mystics, for example, often referred to God as fire and to us as iron in the fire.

So, who really cares what any mystic thinks or says?

Throwing Death and Hades into the fire could very well signify the end of both and therefore a major purification.

Uh, no. It's where all who never received the free gift of eternal life will spend eternity. Apart from God.

The notion of universalism is thoroughly refuted from Scripture.

But liberals try to water down Scripture, which is part of satan's strategy to deceive the world. The more people who think that all will be saved means less will ever know how desperately they need it.

 

[True Science]

Who is it that initiates, orchestrates and eternally maintains that relationship?

Simply, without God we can do nothing, in him we live, breathe, move and have our being, we are his offspring, and it is he that created us and not we ourselves. This is the short summarized answer from Scripture. God is the Creator. Ultimately nothing happens without him. But man as a free moral agent made in God's image, who is also a free moral agent, must cooperate with God. If he chooses not to, God can't do anything except coerce him, which is against his nature, which is that he wants a real relationship with man and cannot do anything that is not just because that is also against his nature.

 

[Hoghead1]

No, it doesn't mean that the PCUSA is always right, Gill. I simply pointed out that it is the largest Presbyterian denomination, because you wanted to minus it out. Whether or not you consider it Presbyterian isn't the issue. the fact of the matter is that it is. I am well familiar with the history of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. I am also well aware that there were serious legal issues over what name your church should use, since you are essentially a break-away group from the Presbyterian Church, based on arguments over who has the power to accredit foreign missionaries. So perhaps you, too, should be a bit careful using the term "Presbyterian."

 

[FreeGrace2]

Look, Marvin, one of the rules in theological discussion is that we do not knock the spirituality of those with whom we disagree.

I read his post. He did not knock your spirituality. He knocked your liberalism. There is a difference.

That means, most especially, we do not came back at someone and say you area lost souls or doomed because you do not agree with my belief system.

He didn't do that.

Check the rules for this forum. That is precisely what you are doing and it is totally out of line here.

He didn't do what you're claiming. He was calling out your liberal views, which do not line up with Scripture.

 

[Hoghead1]

I believe everyone automatically is in a relationship with God. God never turns his or her back on anyone. It is simply a matter of deepening that relationship. Sometimes we may take the initiative, sometimes God. It all depends. The important thing to remember is that we all are always in a relationship with God.

 

[True Science]

Also please note just because someone is not willing currently, doesn't mean God in his graciousness cannot still make man in all cases without coercion. He can and does this. Through divine influence. Almost completely all of man never cared to seek out the Creator before the Cross. But through the Cross after this Christ started drawing all men to himself. All of a sudden more people than ever before started seeking God through the free grace of the Gospel that man did not merit.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"The point of what Jesus said was that spiritually dead people, not regenerated people, will hear Him. And become spiritually alive.

Calvinism claims that one must be regenerated (made alive) before they will hear Him. They have it backwards."

FreeGrace2, may I ask your opinion on two things? In regards to the condition of men since the fall and original sin: What was the full affect of the fall, in regards to the relationship between men and God? Are men born into this condition of enmity with God? Do you agree that the nature of me from birth is a sinful state?

Ok, first with the serious questions.

#1 The full effect of the fall is that human beings are unable to save themselves from the curse of sin. That's why God provides The Savior, who solved the sin problem.

#2 Yes, all men are born spiritually dead, at enmity with God.

#3 Yes, the nature of men from birth is a sinful state.

Can a dead tree bare fruit? Can a bird with a broken wing fly?

OK, now for the other ones.

#1 No.

#2 Maybe.

After we discuss these points, maybe you can help me understand how a man can change his nature and bring himself to be spiritually alive.

He doesn't because he can't. What Calvinists seem to not understand is that it is God who does the new birthing, or regeneration. But God only regenerates those who believe. He doesn't regenerate unbelievers.

Also, your question is bogus. Man's nature isn't changed, as your question implies. Man is given a new nature by God, so that there is a struggle between them, as Paul described of himself in Romans 7 and also in Gal 5.

I guess most (all?) Calvinists assume that all non Calvinists think they regenerate themselves. Where does that idea come from?

 

[True Science]

"I believe everyone automatically is in a relationship with God. God never turns his or her back on anyone. It is simply a matter of deepening that relationship. Sometimes we may take the initiative, sometimes God. It all depends. The important thing to remember is that we all are always in a relationship with God."

I don't know if you believe all of Scripture or not but it does teach that men, most of them, are cut off from God and without hope in the world.

Eph 2:12 that at that time you were without Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers of the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
Eph 2:13 But now, in Christ Jesus you who then were afar off, came to be near by the blood of Christ.

Psa 53:1 To the chief Musician upon Mahalath, Maschil, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.
Psa 53:2 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.
Psa 53:3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Psa 53:4 Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread: they have not called upon God.
Psa 53:5 There were they in great fear, where no fear was: for God hath scattered the bones of him that encampeth against thee: thou hast put them to shame, because God hath despised them.
Psa 53:6 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! When God bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psa 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Psa 14:4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
Psa 14:5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.
Psa 14:6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.
Psa 14:7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

Jer 7:29 Cut off thine hair, O Jerusalem, and cast it away, and take up a lamentation on high places; for the LORD hath rejected and forsaken the generation of his wrath.

Read about the prodigal son as well.

This does not mean that God in leaving man to himself and cutting him off has completely cast off man and given up on him. He works always to draw man back to him and wills for all to be saved and come into fellowship with him through his Son.

Neh_9:31 Nevertheless for thy great mercies' sake thou didst not utterly consume them, nor forsake them; for thou art a gracious and merciful God.

Jer_23:39 Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of my presence:

 

[Hoghead1]

That may or may not be true, Albion, depending on how you are viewing the whole of Calvin. There are many other aspects of Calvin and Calvinism that I have not dealt with and that I take in a much more positive light. One of them is that he certainly took his faith and doctrines much more seriously than many Christians today. Too many churches provide little, if any, intellectual life. People want a quicky 20-minute sermon, hurry up and get it done so that we can get out, and no heavy-duty ideas, please. Same with Sunday-school. Let's just say a few prayers and enjoy coffee and donuts. Please, let's not get into something deep, like predestination, the inerrancy of Scripture, etc. I am working with the pastor of a local church to set up an adult RE study group. First, thing the minister is doing is trying to gradually upgrade the sermon material so that the congregation will be ready for serious exploration of church history, doctrines, etc. That's a problem I see here. more than one poster presents material that shows little ,if any real theological education. And that's not their fault. The churches have been remiss in providing any sor of advanced-level education.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I believe everyone automatically is in a relationship with God.

And I've shown verses that have refuted such an idea.

God never turns his or her back on anyone.

Let's see what Scripture actually says about this.

Isa 55:7 - Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; And let him return to the LORD, And He will have compassion on him, And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.

It is those who have responded to His grace and mercy that He has compassion on. Those who have repented. Not everyone.

We are all born dead in sins. Eph 2:1 clearly indicates this: And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,

It is simply a matter of deepening that relationship.

No. Relationship does not begin until faith in Christ. Only then.

Sometimes we may take the initiative, sometimes God. It all depends.

No, it doesn't. The Bible is clear that God has already taken the initiative; from the garden forward.

The important thing to remember is that we all are always in a relationship with God.

Just what the devil wants everyone to believe. Then they will be deceived and not realize their need for the Savior.

 

[Marvin Knox]

................ But man as a free moral agent made in God's image, who is also a free moral agent, must cooperate with God.

I agree.

Man is a free moral agent - a lot like God is. But not exactly like God is.

There is a vast difference between what choices a fallen man chooses to make and the ones a holy God makes. Our natures are quite a bit different from God's in this regard.

Perhaps they were more alike in the garden. But after the fall - not so much.

Also - the choices of man can be their choices even if they are predestined to happen by God.

We do choose how we will cooperate with God. That is true for saved and unsaved persons alike. We will all reap the consequences of how we cooperate with God.

................ God can't do anything except coerce him, which is against his nature, which is that he wants a real relationship with man and cannot do anything that is not just because that is also against his nature.

I disagree.

God can do anything He wants in keeping with His nature.

There is nothing in scripture that says that coercion goes against God's nature. In fact He coerces His creation all the time - and it's illustrated all through the scriptures.

Obviously He wants a real relationship with men.

Obviously He can't do anything that is not just - because it goes against His nature.

Nor does anyone from the Calvinist side say that He does.

 

[Cush]

I believe you may have misunderstood @Marvin Knox. No one (on our side of this discussion) would be so bold to say that we are saved because of our theology, and we certainly wouldn't condemn anyone who didn't have the same understanding. Our hope is only to get others to understand why we view salvation the way we do.

I wouldn't say we are saved by our Theology. However, to borrow from Shai Linne:

The·ol·o·gy
THēˈäləjē/
noun
noun: theology

1. the systematic study of the nature of God and religious belief.

or·tho·dox·y
ˈôrTHəˌdäksē/
noun
noun: orthodoxy; plural noun: orthodoxies
1.
authorized or generally accepted theory, doctrine, or practice.
dox·ol·o·gy
däkˈsäləjē/
noun
noun: doxology; plural noun: doxologies

1. a liturgical formula of praise to God.

Theology should lead to Doxology. If we have Theology without Doxology we just have plain cold Orthodoxy. On the other extreme you have people that say all I want to do is praise. To have Doxology without Theology is idolatry, because it is a random expression of praise without actually being informed by the Truth of who God is.

Our hope is only to get others to understand why we view salvation the way we do.

Calvinism leaves not an iota of boasting on man's part.
Soli Deo Gloria.
Cush

 

[True Science]

Calvinists do not believe they regenerate themselves. They believe they even need to be regenerated to believe.

Now the Protestant Sola Fide is actually destroyed by "Born Again" as is shown in these videos by this Roman Catholic (NOTE: I am not posting these videos to "flame"):

 

[Hoghead1]

Nicely put, ToBeLoved.

 

[Marvin Knox]

That may or may not be true, Albion, depending on how you are viewing the whole of Calvin. There are many other aspects of Calvin and Calvinism that I have not dealt with and that I take in a much more positive light. One of them is that he certainly took his faith and doctrines much more seriously than many Christians today. Too many churches provide little, if any, intellectual life. People want a quicky 20-minute sermon, hurry up and get it done so that we can get out, and no heavy-duty ideas, please. Same with Sunday-school. Let's just say a few prayers and enjoy coffee and donuts. Please, let's not get into something deep, like predestination, the inerrancy of Scripture, etc. I am working with the pastor of a local church to set up an adult RE study group. First, thing the minister is doing is trying to gradually upgrade the sermon material so that the congregation will be ready for serious exploration of church history, doctrines, etc. That's a problem I see here. more than one poster presents material that shows little ,if any real theological education. And that's not their fault. The churches have been remiss in providing any sor of advanced-level education.

On these ideas I can agree with you.

 

[Cush]

They believe they even need to be regenerated to believe.

John 10:26 - "but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep."

Note the Scripture does not say you are not among my sheep BECAUSE you do not believe.