Logical Problems with Calvinism

[tulipbee]

Again, it is absolutely unnecessary if God saves us some other kind of way.


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God does what he wants to go. He doesn't need you telling him what to do

 

[ToBeLoved]

Not all Calvinists believe the same thing. Why are you assuming your belief is the only one? Also, I have heard many Calvinists say it is in regeneration that one is first saved before hearing the gospel.


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I agree. I've heard that too, over and over.

 

[GillDouglas]

It is silly to call faith a work.
That just shows how little some understand faith.

Then you would agree that faith is a gift by the grace of God? Then you would agree that God saves by grace alone, and not by your faith (or lack thereof)?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Then you would agree that faith is a gift by the grace of God? Then you would agree that God saves by grace alone, and not by your faith (or lack thereof)?

The gift of God is grace in that God sent His Only Begotten Son who knew no sin to die for the sins of mankind. That Jesus blood on the cross is the atonement for sin and that the Father accepted Jesus sacrifice by resurrecting Jesus.

That is what grace is. That God has shown us unmerited favor in that we deserve hell, but God provided a way for man and God to be reconciled back to each other through the finished work on the cross by His Son. That is the grace of God. That He loved us that much first. While we were still enemies with Him that He did this for ALL mankind.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing the gospel and the Word of God.

So the opportunity to come to saving faith and what Jesus sacrificed for us is grace.

So faith in itself is not totally a gift of grace. No.

 

[GillDouglas]

The gift of God is grace in that God sent His Only Begotten Son who knew no sin to die for the sins of mankind. That Jesus blood on the cross is the atonement for sin and that the Father accepted Jesus sacrifice by resurrecting Jesus.

That is what grace is. That God has shown us unmerited favor in that we deserve hell, but God provided a way for man and God to be reconciled back to each other through the finished work on the cross by His Son. That is the grace of God. That He loved us that much first. While we were still enemies with Him that He did this for ALL mankind.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing the gospel and the Word of God.

So the opportunity to come to saving faith and what Jesus sacrificed for us is grace.

So faith in itself is not totally a gift of grace. No.

Then why doesn't everyone who hears the Gospel have faith and be saved?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Then why doesn't everyone who hears the Gospel have faith, and are saved?

I could ask the same of the Calvinist?

It is because some hear and have faith and some hear and do not heed.

 

[GillDouglas]

I could ask the same of the Calvinist?

It is because some hear and have faith and some hear and do not heed.

Such an insightful answer. Let me first correct you about your theory of Grace, then I'll address your lack of understanding concerning faith.

“Grace” is the most important concept in the Bible and by definition is "the free and unmerited favor of God, as manifested in the salvation of sinners and the bestowal of blessings". It is most clearly expressed in the promises of God revealed in Scripture and embodied in Jesus Christ. Grace is the love of God shown to the unlovely; the peace of God given to the restless; the unmerited favor of God. Grace is the opposite of karma, which is all about getting what you deserve. Grace is getting what you don’t deserve, and not getting what you do deserve. Scriptures teach that what we deserve is death with no hope of resurrection. While everyone desperately needs it, grace is not about us. Grace is fundamentally a word about God: his un-coerced initiative and pervasive, extravagant demonstrations of care and favor. Grace is about mercy, not merit.

Grace is the way in which we have faith. Faith is nothing that we do in our own power or by our own resources. In the first place we do not have adequate power or resources in our natural state. Paul knew that the abundant grace of God was the source of his own faith. He said in 1 Timothy 1:13-14, "I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief; but the grace of our Lord overflowed with the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus." He was an unbeliever. But then grace overflowed to him with faith. When we accept the finished work of Christ on our behalf, we act by the faith supplied by God’s grace. That is the supreme act of human faith, the act which, though it is ours, is primarily God’s—His gift to us out of His grace.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Such an insightful answer. Let me first correct you about your theory of Grace, then I'll address your lack of understanding concerning faith.

“Grace” is the most important concept in the Bible and by definition is "the free and unmerited favor of God, as manifested in the salvation of sinners and the bestowal of blessings". It is most clearly expressed in the promises of God revealed in Scripture and embodied in Jesus Christ. Grace is the love of God shown to the unlovely; the peace of God given to the restless; the unmerited favor of God. Grace is the opposite of karma, which is all about getting what you deserve. Grace is getting what you don’t deserve, and not getting what you do deserve. Scriptures teach that what we deserve is death with no hope of resurrection. While everyone desperately needs it, grace is not about us. Grace is fundamentally a word about God: his un-coerced initiative and pervasive, extravagant demonstrations of care and favor. Grace is about mercy, not merit.

This is pretty much what I said.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Grace is the way in which we have faith. Faith is nothing that we do in our own power or by our own resources. In the first place we do not have adequate power or resources in our natural state. Paul knew that the abundant grace of God was the source of his own faith. He said in 1 Timothy 1:13-14, "I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief; but the grace of our Lord overflowed with the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus." He was an unbeliever. But then grace overflowed to him with faith. When we accept the finished work of Christ on our behalf, we act by the faith supplied by God’s grace. That is the supreme act of human faith, the act which, though it is ours, is primarily God’s—His gift to us out of His grace.

Here you are confusing grace and faith.

Faith is definitely something we do and that we have.

It is by Gods grace that we have access to salvation by that faith.

And what does Pauls verse say that you quoted 'with the faith and love which are Jesus Christ '

So Paul is not talking about his own faith and love, but Christ's.

 

[GillDouglas]

Here you are confusing grace and faith.

Faith is definitely something we do and that we have.

It is by Gods grace that we have access to salvation by that faith.

And what does Pauls verse say that you quoted 'with the faith and love which are Jesus Christ '

So Paul is not talking about his own faith and love, but Christ's.

But you said "faith comes from hearing and hearing by the word of Christ." So faith is a gift from God, not something we do. Heb 12:2 says "...Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith". And Rom 12:3 says " ... God has allotted to each a measure of faith.” These other two verses, including the one you supplied, clearly tell us that faith is not something that we do or a presence of mind that we develop, but that faith is a gift from God. Faith is the enabling power of God, given to us by His grace and mercy.

 

[FreeGrace2]

And as I said before, the Canaanite woman's use of a parable of her own (that expounde upon Jesus's parable)disproves folks here by the fact that they can use parables. The only reason people here are not wanting to see it is because they know it will refute their false idea that they can sin and still be saved....

Onc again, there was no parable in the conversation between the woman and Jesus. He used a metaphor, not a parable.

 

[FreeGrace2]

First, of all, many Christians list Jesus's parables so as to include even quick comparisons of things (without a story). Second, the dictionary defines "parable" as being either a story or a statement or comment that can be used as a comparison or an anology.

OK. And? Jesus did not use a parable with the woman. Just read it. He used a metaphor.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The Dictionary is an accepted form of communication on how we understand words.


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And I recommend that it be used to understand the clear difference between a parable and a metaphor.

 

[FreeGrace2]

P.S.

Like I said, the only ones I have ever heard use the terms robots puppets and the like are the opponents of Calvinists - never the Calvinists themselves.

Calvinists usually know exactly what they believe. It would be nice if those who are not Calvinists would cease telling them what they believe.

Those who disagree with the Calvinist view see it as that. That's all. And those who disagree with the Calvinist view understand that the Calvinist doesn't see it that way. But that's why it is used because that's the way it appears to those who don't agree.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"No doubt. But God being "at work" doesn't equate to regeneration."

Apparently you have a window into the spirit world that I do not have.

Odd conclusion from what I posted.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I agree. I've heard that too, over and over.

I've never heard a Calvinist say that.

Can you supply one quote for us (from one of the Calvinists who say that over and over) that says regeneration is what saves us?

Jason says that he has heard it said by many Calvinists But he won't provide an instance for me.

That's why I'm hoping that you will.

Thanks.

 

[FreeGrace2]

@Jason0047 @FreeGrace2 @ToBeLoved All men, in their natural state (assuming any one of you believes in the doctrine of Original Sin), are rebels against God; and though an unregenerate man might do many things which the law of God requires, which would commend them as godly men among men, does nothing with reference to God. A man who does 'good' in the sight of men lack the principle that alone makes him righteous in the sight of God. These virtues of the unregenerate man are fleeting and fading flowers, only temporary. Those unregenerate who possess such 'faith' is like the seed which falls upon the stony soil, springing up with promise of fruit, yet soon withers because it has no root. Salvation is ABSOLUTELY AND SOLELY OF GRACE!!!

Of course salvation is of grace, absolutely and solely. No question. But that doesn't support the idea that man is unable to respond to the message of the gospel by hearing it. It does not support the first tenant of Calvinism, total depravity. The Bible teaches that man is unable to save himself. The Bible does not support the idea that man is unable to respond to the gospel until he has been regenerated (or whatever other word Calvinism can come up with).

Unregenerate men are generally offended by this idea of the true state of mankind, and his inability to bring himself to a saved state.

I think we all agree that man cannot bring himelf to a saved state. But that is a far cry from man hearing, understanding and believing the gospel message. Also, the Bible gives clear examples of people who were seeking God. Cornelius was NOT saved until he heard the gospel from Peter, per Acts 11:14. And Lydia wasn't saved until she believed. And the Bible describes both of them as worshipers of God (they were seeking Him).

 

[Job8]

But I was looking more for a parable that you can make yourself personally so as to illustrate the goodness of OSAS.

Well in that case why don't we take the example of a heart transplant. Once a heart is transplanted into a person, that becomes a permanent fixture. Now if this individual smokes heavily, drinks heavily, eats all the wrong foods, and disregards cholesterol build up, it will never change the fact that he was given a NEW HEART. But he will certainly pay for his transgressions.

Thus it is with a believer who receives the gift of eternal life. He does receive a new heart and a new spirit, but if he feeds his carnality and starves his spirituality, he will be taken to task. Please refer to 1 Cor 11:27-34.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I do not see how it is difficult to communicate in a parable. It is actually rather easy to do. You find something in the real world that matches up with your beliefs. For example: Conditional Salvation can be demonstrated by looking at an alcoholic who desires to become sober by him checking himself into a program to be free of his addiction. In time, the alcoholic who desires strongly to become alcohol free will be sober (over enough proper treatment). The analogy here is that being addicted to alcohol is the sin that they overcome. However, in OSAS, one does not believe that becoming sober (i.e. to stop sinning) is possible in this life. ...

Well, one thing is clear with this parable. Your view is that man actually does save himself.

But the Bible clearly refutes such an idea. We are saved by God. And there is no God in your parable. So try again. This time with an actual real world example. Yours fell flat.

Your parable was only a self help program. And while many unbelievers have done that, it didn't save them. Even if you thought it did.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It doesn't matter what you call it. Metaphor or Parable. Just make one. I do not care what you call it. But for your information, Dictionary.com says this,

"a statement or comment that conveys a meaning indirectly by the use of comparison, analogy, or the like."

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/parable

And the origin of the word defines it as a,

"comparison"

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=parable....

Seems you just keep demonstrating over and over how little you understand the difference between a metaphor and a parable.