Logical Problems with Calvinism

[Albion]

Taken at face value--which is what you did--it also rules out any forgiveness for sin, period.

 

[Thursday]

Taken at face value--which is what you did--it also rules out any forgiveness for sin, period.

Wrong. A man who sows repentance and good will reaps forgiveness and eternal life.

 

[Albion]

Wrong. A man who sows repentance and good will reaps forgiveness and eternal life.

Sorry, but if you take the passage super literally--which is what you wanted to do in order to debunk Calvinism--you're stuck with having it mean *What you sow, you reap, period.*

That means that if any of us commits a sin at any time, we will pay for it, no exceptions.

Since none of us Christians believes that's what the faith is all about, you need to rethink. Or find a different verse.

 

[Thursday]

Sorry, but if you take the passage super literally--which is what you wanted to do in order to debunk Calvinism--you're stuck with having it mean *What you sow, you reap, period.*

That means that if any of us commits a sin at any time, we will pay for it, no exceptions.

Since none of us Christians believes that's what the faith is all about, you need to rethink. Or find a different verse.

What do you get if you sow confession and repentance?

Here's what Paul says, by the way:

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

 

[Albion]

What do you get if you sow confession and repentance?

You don't "sow" confession. But that's almost beside the point, anyway.

If you want to say that what a man sows he will certainly reap, you cannot pick and choose the particular "sowing" and omit other sowings or actions. If a person does good to others and repents of his sins, he nevertheless does commit them, and a literal reading of that verse would say that there is no way to avoid the consequences of his sin.

For you to say, *Well, he can repent* is to say that what he's sown--in that case--he doesn't have to reap, after all.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yet, you haven't learned a thing, in spite of very good solid doctrinal teaching. All you've done is dig your heels in deeper and deeper.

Amen brother! Amen.

 

[Thursday]

You don't "sow" confession. But that's almost beside the point, anyway.

If you want to say that what a man sows he will certainly reap, you cannot pick and choose the particular "sowing" and omit other sowings or actions. If a person does good to others and repents of his sins, he nevertheless does commit them, and a literal reading of that verse would say that there is no way to avoid the consequences of his sin.

For you to say, *Well, he can repent* is to say that what he's sown--in that case--he doesn't have to reap, after all.

Paul is quite explicit. A man reaps what he sows. Calvin was wrong to teach unconditional election.

A man who confesses sin is sowing to reap forgiveness.

 

[Albion]

Paul is quite explicit. A man reaps what he sows.

But you've just been telling us that if he repents he WON'T reap the consequences of his sin. He'll be forgiven.

Which of your positions on this matter do you want to stick with?

 

[Thursday]

But you've just been telling us that if he repents he WON'T reap the consequences of his sin. He'll be forgiven.

Which of your positions on this matter do you want to stick with?

Confessing our sins is an act. It is sowing.

1 John 1
9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[Albion]

Confessing our sins is an act. It is sowing.

It doesn't really matter. You've sidestepped the fact that there's reaping here that doesn't occur, and that would be impossible if Paul's statement were taken literally. But other than that, I don't see that this refutes "Calvinism" in the least.

 

[Thursday]

It doesn't really matter. You've sidestepped the fact that there's reaping here that doesn't occur, and that would be impossible if Paul's statement were taken literally. But other than that, I don't see that this refutes "Calvinism" in the least.

You are in denial.

8Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

 

[Albion]

You are in denial.

Oh, well, that settled everything.

Would you happen to have an answer to my last comment, or are you content to just say "You are in denial?"

 

[Thursday]

Oh, well, that settled everything.

Would you happen to have an answer to my last comment, or are you content to just say "You are in denial?"

I did answer. You ignored it.

 

[Albion]

So, you have no idea how your theory might disprove Calvinism? OK.

 

[Thursday]

So, you have no idea how your theory might disprove Calvinism? OK.

It's not my theory. It's the word of God.

8Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

 

[sdowney717]

It's not my theory. It's the word of God.

8Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

v8 and v9 are not directly linked causally. v9 has to do with rewards 'reap a harvest', this is not salvation.

IF you are in Christ, then this is your condition.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.
Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness

The body is dead because of sin, but your spirit is alive because the Spirit of Christ is life, and those in Christ are joined to Christ, so they too are alive in the Spirit.

Those who are in the flesh can NOT PLEASE GOD. So obviously, a born of God christian sows to the Spirit, since those who have Him indwelling them belong to Christ.

reference Romans 8
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the bodyis dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

 

[Albion]

You at least, do understand and have kept to the topic of Calvinism.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Paul is quite explicit. A man reaps what he sows. Calvin was wrong to teach unconditional election.

A man who confesses sin is sowing to reap forgiveness.

A man does reap what he sows.

Of course, due to the God ordained substitutionary death of Jesus Christ, the Lord "reaped" most of what is due to us Christians.

Of course, in some ways, we ourselves will "reap" what we sow as Christians when we all stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ as the Word of God tells us we must.

To my knowledge no Calvinist denies that we will so reap what we sow.

The concept of men reaping what they sow has absolutely nothing to do with whether Calvinists are correct in teaching unconditional election that I can see. It certainly doesn't "contradict" Calvinism as you have asserted.

 

[Marvin Knox]

You and Gil appear to be on the side of this issue, when we get right down to it. FWIW, I incline that way also, but I think the omnipresence of God and his place in bringing the person to saving Faith and keeping him secure are quite different from the suggestion some have made that we then are moved like puppets by God when it comes to us performing good deeds.

On this issue and many others Gil and I are indeed on the same side.

I'm not sure who is asserting the puppet analogy. Do you mean those who oppose Calvinism or Calvinists? You'll have to clarify that a bit.

Usually it is those who object to the idea of God's sovereign predestination of all things that happen who bring in the puppet/robot stuff.

No Calvinist believes we are robots.

The predestination of all things that happen in God's creation is perfectly compatible with men making their own choices. That goes for Christian men and unbelievers alike.

 

[ToBeLoved]

v8 and v9 are not directly linked causally. v9 has to do with rewards 'reap a harvest', this is not salvation.

IF you are in Christ, then this is your condition.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.
Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness

The body is dead because of sin, but your spirit is alive because the Spirit of Christ is life, and those in Christ are joined to Christ, so they too are alive in the Spirit.

Those who are in the flesh can NOT PLEASE GOD. So obviously, a born of God christian sows to the Spirit, since those who have Him indwelling them belong to Christ.

reference Romans 8
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the bodyis dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Amen!