Logical Problems with Calvinism

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason, please actually read my words and understand. Your understanding of a person's salvation is too narrowly focused on what men (should) do, once saved. You choose to ignore the part where God works in a believer throughout the whole entire process. When we say that the ONLY reason we are righteous before God is because of Christ, we speak the Truth because that is what the Bible teaches us. If you didn't choose to ignore this fact about the Gospel then you would understand that we would never tell someone they have to live perfectly because we know that Christ has them and the Holy Spirit will guide them. A man who is truly God's child will not run off and live in sin, thinking they are saved because, as you say in post #2376, "Christ lives in the believer" as it is written: "I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me." (Galatians 2:20)

But your belief makes an allowance for a little bit of sin. I get no indication that a little bit of sin was what Christ was thinking when he told the woman caught in the act of adultery to: "sin no more." I also get no indication that Christ was saying that the man he healed could still continue to sin a little (or on occasion), either. For Jesus told the man he healed to "sin no more, unless a worse thing come upon you." So here are the two alternatives for the man Jesus healed.

(a) Sin no more. (or):
(b) If he does sin, then a worse thing will come upon him.​

It doesn't sound to me like there was a third option given to him that would allow him to continue in sin as long as it was done on occasion and if he confessed it. That is a something that the reader has to add to the text that is not there.

You also have not provided me with a real world example to say how sinning on occasion the rest of your life is okay to God as long as you confess it, either.

Also, again, I do not believe it is anything I do that ultimately saves me. I said this before and you just ignored it. I believe Christ works in the believer once they repented of their sins and accepted Christ as their Savior and they continue to submit to Him.


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[GillDouglas]

But your belief makes an allowance for a little bit of sin. I get no indication that a little bit of sin was what Christ was thinking when he told the woman caught in the act of adultery to: "sin no more." I also get no indication that Christ was saying that the man he healed could still continue to sin a little (or on occasion), either. For Jesus told the man he healed to "sin no more, unless a worse thing come upon you." So here are the two alternatives for the man Jesus healed.

(a) Sin no more. (or):
(b) If he does sin, then a worse thing will come upon him.​

It doesn't sound to me like there was a third option given to him that would allow him to continue in sin as long as it was done on occasion and if he confessed it. That is a something that the reader has to add to the text that is not there.

You also have not provided me with a real world example to say how sinning on occasion the rest of your life is okay to God as long as you confess it, either.

Also, again, I do not believe it is anything I do that ultimately saves me. I said this before and you just ignored it. I believe Christ works in the believer once they repented of their sins and accepted Christ as their Savior and they continue to submit to Him.
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Yet you have admitted yourself in multiple posts that you still sin. What happened to 'Sin no more' or 'a worse thing' coming upon you? Why preach to others that they should not, can not, must not sin even if confessed and admit that you are just as weak as the rest of us? How are you still saved? If you claim that it is Christ, why do you preach works?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

How about out of your own mouth? From my post #2369, in which I quoted directly your post:
"Nowhere does the Bible say we stop sinning when we get to Heaven." What else could you have meant by that?

Well, this is in context of me saying that a believer stops sinning BEFORE they die. You are saying that a believer stops sinning AFTER they die. You believe the Scriptures say that is when a believer stops sinning. I believe the Scriptures say that a believer stops sinning before they die. Nowhere did I ever say that a believer could sin in Heaven. That is an assumption you are adding to what I said that I did not actually say.

None of them teach anything close to that, unless you want to argue that Paul was off his rocker when he wrote Romans 7

Then you need to explain the contradiction in Paul saying he is "sold under sin" in Romans 7:14 and yet he is "free from sin" in Romans 8:2. Please take note that Paul says he is carnal in Romans 7:14 and yet in Romans 8:6-8, Paul says,

"For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."​

and Eph 5.

I am not sure how Ephesians 5 helps your belief that it is okay to sin on occasion the rest of your life as long as you confess it. Ephesians 4:17-27 makes it clear that we put away sin (Pay special close attention to verses 25, and 27).

The ONLY reason anyone would call you "some pretty bad stuff" is because of the extremely unbiblical things you say.

There is no excuse for God's people in behaving in such a way. Jesus warned us that there would be those who would say all manner of evil against us.

"Blessed are you, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake." (Matthew 5:11).​

For Paul says, "Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man" (Colossians 4:6).

This is pure fantasy. Paul used the present tense throughout the chapter. But ignore if if you want.

Paul talks in the present tense from his reader's perspective in Galatians 2:18. That does not mean Paul is talking from his own experience.

That's just more fantasy. He is addressing the Jews in the congregation. That's all.

Paul was not speaking in front of a congregation with the book of Romans. Paul was writing a letter to the Romans about how those Christians who know the Law cannot go back and be justified by the Law of Moses by being circumcised. That is the whole point of why Paul speaks about his experience as a Jew before he became a Christian.

cherry picking verses out of the air don't help you. Just reading ch 7 shows clearly that Paul's struggle between his 2 natures is continuing. The present tense completely defeats your claims.

No it doesn't. People can talk in the present tense from another perspective. It is a literally device that exists not only in the Scriptures but in other literally works, as well.

Of course no one would try to defend what they bon't believe. Duh. And you're right; we both cannot be right. And I've consistently and repeatedly shown how your view is the wrong one.

No need to be insulting. Also, I do not believe you have demonstrated that my view is wrong with Scripture or by way of a real world example.

Now?? I've ALWAYS said that.

When you tell people that Jesus is a person's righteousness and it is nothing in what they do and you stop and say no more, it can indeed lead them to think the wrong thing and lead them into a life style of sin with the thought they are saved.

Did I say any of that nonsense? No. So stop putting stupid words in the mouths of others. The Bible tells us that our sin nature WILL struggle with our new nature. Do you deny that truth?

It doesn't matter if you didn't say those words. It is essentially what you must believe if you hold to the belief that a believer will never stop sinning in this life. As for the two natures: Well, I do not believe the struggle of a believer's two natures will last forever in their walk with the Lord because I believe with God all things are possible.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Yet you have admitted yourself in multiple posts that you still sin. What happened to 'Sin no more' or 'a worse thing' coming upon you? Why preach to others that they should not, can not, must not sin even if confessed and admit that you are just as weak as the rest of us? How are you still saved? If you claim that it is Christ, why do you preach works?

No. I am not claiming that I live in sin day in and day out. I also believe I am in the Sanctification process with God whereby He will help me to stop sinning. This could be today, tomorrow, or some other time. So I have hope in my God that He will help me to have the victory as other men of God have had in this area. I can preach this truth to others because the Scriptures also teach that many believers have to go thru a Sanctification process, too. Furthermore, I do not need to build an Ark and test to see if it is sea worthy to believe that there was an Ark. I do not need to raise the dead in order to believe and teach to others that such a thing is possible for a believer. It is a miracle. It is no different with God doing a miracle of helping the believer to overcome their sin, too (If they choose to submit to Him).

As for how I am saved: I am saved by His mercy and by the washing of the regeneration of the Holy Ghost. This involves a changed life. Not of my own power but by the power of God.


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[Marvin Knox]

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Again, 1 Peter 4:1 says, they that have suffered in the flesh have ceased from sin. There is no mention that this is talking about habitual sin. Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. Now, logic dictates that if one has crucified the affections and lusts this would mean that they would not be tempted to sin at all. For how can you sin if you crucified the affections and lusts?...

Any number of mission organizations could provide you with a list of names of saints who have suffered in the flesh because of their testimony for Christ.

Likely none of those saints would tell you that they been able to totally ceased from sin in the years following their physical or psychological persecution.

I assure you that I am "Christ's". I have been blood bought, made part of His body, and I am seated with Him in Heaven even now - reigning with Him in the Kingdom of God.

...............................
Somebody just made this up and you are believing it. Nowhere does the Bible say we stop sinning when we get to Heaven. This is just an excuse for a believer to hold on to their sin for the rest of their lives because they desire to want to have it in their life (deep down)....

The Bible is clear that we will not sin in Heaven. It is also clear that true believers will cease from habitual sin in this life on earth.

No true believer is looking for an excuse to hold on to his or her sin.

You are right, however, in saying that we all want to sin "deep down" in our flesh.

...............................
I mean, humor me for a moment. From your world view or persepctive: If there was the slightest chance that Sinless Perfectionism was taught in the Bibe, wouldn't you want to stop sinning so as to please your Lord? For you are out to please God, right? You are out to be His faithful servant, right? How can a faithful servant of their Master also do evil against their Lord? For me, that just doesn't add up.

Whether there is a chance of Sinless Perfection being achieved in this life or not - every true believer wants to stop sinning so as to please their Lord.

True saints need no special incentive to desire to live holy. It's in our spiritual DNA.

We don't need you to egg us on. That's the Holy Spirit's job (and He's plenty good at it).

 

[GillDouglas]

No. I am not claiming that I live in sin day in and day out. I also believe I am in the Sanctification process with God whereby He will help me to stop sinning. This could be today, tomorrow, or some other time. So I have hope in my God that He will help me to have the victory as other men of God have had in this area. I can preach this truth to others because the Scriptures also teach that many believers have to go thru a Sanctification process, too. Furthermore, I do not need to build an Ark and test to see if it is sea worthy to believe that there was an Ark. I do not need to raise the dead in order to believe and teach to others that such a thing is possible for a believer. It is a miracle. It is no different with God doing a miracle of helping the believer to overcome their sin, too (If they choose to submit to Him).

As for how I am saved: I am saved by His mercy and by the washing of the regeneration of the Holy Ghost. This involves a changed life. Not of my own power but by the power of God.


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I just don't understand. You speak in circles to avoid being 'wrong'. You say one thing, do another and then say something else entirely. It's really hard to follow what you believe. I sure hope that I have not been wasting my time trying to get you to focus, not so much on doing good work in order to stay saved, but trusting in Christ to keep you always. I pray also that no young Christians fall victim to your works-based doctrine, and they too would trust Christ alone.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Truth is never silly.........................
So, it's believers WHO God chose to be holy and blameless (1:4). That isn't circular. ............................
God chooses who will believe. He chose those who have already believed....................

He "chose those who have already believed" before the foundation of the world - before they even existed? Really?

Around and around we go. Your argument is both circular and down right silly.

Following you around in a circle is something I used to do when I first encountered you.

Most of us are now hip to your ways and will not play the game any more. I just wanted to point it out for anyone new so they won't get caught up in it.

Let's stay focused.

I'm plenty focused enough to see right through you. Most of who have been here a while are.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Any number of mission organizations could provide you with a list of names of saints who have suffered in the flesh because of their testimony for Christ.

Likely none of those saints would tell you that they been able to totally ceased from sin in the years following their physical or psychological persecution.

Actually, one has to first believe in Sinless Perfectionism and suffer in the flesh in preaching the gospel so as to make that a reality. Also, a believer can fast in their prayer so as to overcome sin, as well. For fasting is form of making the flesh to suffer.

I assure you that I am "Christ's". I have been blood bought, made part of His body, and I am seated with Him in Heaven even now - reigning with Him in the Kingdom of God.

You left out the most important part of the verse in Galatians 5:24. They that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. This does not sound like the believer who holds to the idea that they will sin on occasion for the rest of their life.

The Bible is clear that we will not sin in Heaven.

I never said that we would sin in Heaven. The point I was making is that Scriptures makes it clear that the believer who lives out their faith will stop sinning BEFORE they die. There is no Scripture saying that a believer will stop sinning at the point AFTER they die. Yes, there will be no sin in Heaven. That is not the point I was getting at. The point is WHEN does a believer stop sinning.

It is also clear that true believers will cease from habitual sin in this life on earth.

Are you saying you believe in Sinless Perfectionism? Please explain.

No true believer is looking for an excuse to hold on to his or her sin.

Yes, I agree. All believers will in time put away their sin by the power of God.

You are right, however, in saying that we all want to sin "deep down" in our flesh.

This is not true for the one who has crucified the affections and lusts.

Whether there is a chance of Sinless Perfection being achieved in this life or not - every true believer wants to stop sinning so as to please their Lord.

True believers.... yes.
As for believers in general I do not believe that this is the case.
This is evident if they believe they cannot stop sinning in this life (Whether they believe they will sin a lot and be saved or whether they sin on occasion and be saved).

True saints need no special incentive to desire to live holy. It's in our spiritual DNA.

While this is true for the true believer, it is not the case for those who make an allowance for sin in some way by their beliefs.

We don't need you to egg us on.

Not true. Believers are supposed to correct other believers by the Word of God.

"Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men" (1 Thessalonians 5:14).

That's the Holy Spirit's job (and He's plenty good at it).

Well, God works thru believer's, too.


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[Bible Highlighter]

I just don't understand. You speak in circles to avoid being 'wrong'. You say one thing, do another and then say something else entirely. It's really hard to follow what you believe. I sure hope that I have not been wasting my time trying to get you to focus, not so much on doing good work in order to stay saved, but trusting in Christ to keep you always. I pray also that no young Christians fall victim to your works-based doctrine, and they too would trust Christ alone.

Dear Gill:

First, do you remember me talking about what you believe and then asking you if that is what you really believed or not? I would ask for the same courtesy. You may not find it to be Biblical, but I believe GOD does the work thru the believer and I DO NOT believe that a believer does the work so as to save themselves alone That is why I do not believe in a "Works based salvation" type belief. In fact, I believe that there are Works Salvationists out there who are just as wrong as Antinomians or those who ignore God's moral laws on some level.

These "Works Salvationists" (Who need our prayer and our love), are evident by the fact that they place an over-emphasis on man's effort or work and not on God's work. For example: Many in this camp believe in Baptismal Salvation, or that one has to speak in tongues so as to be saved. Others believe the Old Covenant Law of Moses is still binding even though the New Testament Commands confilct with it in many places.

Second, as I pointed out before, I believe the Scriptures teach that many believers will have to go thru a Sanctification process before they become perfect or before they cease from sin. This is not in contradiction with Sinless Perfectionism because Sinless Perfectionism allows time for God to work in the believer to purify their life of their sin. This is not a contradiction. The problem I have is people are not believing what the Bible says plainly in regards to their sin and how to deal with it. I do not have a problem with people who honestly struggle with sin if they are attempting to put that sin behind them with God's help.


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[sdowney717]

Nowhere did I say there would be sin in Heaven. I did not say that. Folks here are claiming they will put away sin for good when they go to Heaven. I am saying that the believer who lives out his faith in this life will do that before they die.


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(1.) Wisdom teaches us not to expect that those we deal with should be faultless; we ourselves are not so, none are so, no, not the best. This wisdom strengthens the wise as much as anything, and arms them against the danger that arises from provocation (Eccl. 7:19), so that they are not put into any disorder by it. They consider that those they have dealings and conversation with are not incarnate angels, but sinful sons and daughters of Adam: even the best are so, insomuch that there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good and sinneth not, Eccl. 7:20. Solomon had this in his prayer (1 Kgs. 8:46), in his proverbs (Prov. 20:9), and here in his preaching. Note,

[1.] It is the character of just men that they do good; for the tree is known by its fruits.

[2.] The best men, and those that do most good, yet cannot say that they are perfectly free from sin; even those that are sanctified are not sinless. None that live on this side of heaven live without sin. If we say, We have not sinned, we deceive ourselves.

[3.] We sin even in our doing good; there is something defective, nay, something offensive, in our best performances. That which, for the substance of it, is good, and pleasing to God, is not so well done as it should be, and omissions in duty are sins, as well as omissions of duty.

[4.] It is only just men upon earth that are subject thus to sin and infirmity;the spirits of just men, when they have got clear of the body, are made perfect in holiness (Heb. 12:23), and in heaven they do good and sin not.

 

[sdowney717]

John 8
21 Then Jesus said to them again, “I am going away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin. Where I go you cannot come.”

22 So the Jews said, “Will He kill Himself, because He says, ‘Where I go you cannot come’?”

23 And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

25 Then they said to Him, “Who are You?”

And Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been saying to you from the beginning. 26 I have many things to say and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I heard from Him.”

If you do not believe in Christ, then you will most assuredly die in your sins.
If you do believe in Christ, then you WILL NOT DIE IN YOUR SINS.
Your sins are forgiven you for His names sake. The Son of Man has power to forgive sins. And for believers in Christ He forgives them their sins.

If you do not acknowledge this as truth, then you do not have His words abiding in you.

Matthew 9:2
Then behold, they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you.”

Matthew 9:5
For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise and walk’?

Matthew 9:6
But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—then He said to the paralytic, “Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.”

Notice, Jesus saw their faith. and said to the paralytic
“Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you.”

 

[Bible Highlighter]

(1.) Wisdom teaches us not to expect that those we deal with should be faultless; we ourselves are not so, none are so, no, not the best. This wisdom strengthens the wise as much as anything, and arms them against the danger that arises from provocation (Eccl. 7:19), so that they are not put into any disorder by it. They consider that those they have dealings and conversation with are not incarnate angels, but sinful sons and daughters of Adam: even the best are so, insomuch that there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good and sinneth not, Eccl. 7:20. Solomon had this in his prayer (1 Kgs. 8:46), in his proverbs (Prov. 20:9), and here in his preaching. Note,

[1.] It is the character of just men that they do good; for the tree is known by its fruits.

[2.] The best men, and those that do most good, yet cannot say that they are perfectly free from sin; even those that are sanctified are not sinless. None that live on this side of heaven live without sin. If we say, We have not sinned, we deceive ourselves.

[3.] We sin even in our doing good; there is something defective, nay, something offensive, in our best performances. That which, for the substance of it, is good, and pleasing to God, is not so well done as it should be, and omissions in duty are sins, as well as omissions of duty.

[4.] It is only just men upon earth that are subject thus to sin and infirmity;the spirits of just men, when they have got clear of the body, are made perfect in holiness (Heb. 12:23), and in heaven they do good and sin not.

The heart of your argument appears to be 1 John 1:8. But as I said to others before, 1 John 1:8 is not declaring in the present tense that we must admit that we are always constantly sinning or that we will always have sin in our life at some point. 1 John 1:8 is written to two groups of people that I know of today.

(a) Christian Scientists.
(b) Antinomians (i.e. OSAS proponents who believe they can sin and still be saved on some level).​

For Christian Scientists believe sin, evil, and the devil does not exist. So they would naturally fulfill 1 John 1:8 because they do not believe in the existence of sin.

Antinomians or those OSAS proponents who believe they can sin and still be saved believe that they can sin physically in the flesh but they cannot sin spiritually because Jesus paid for their present and future sin. So the Antinomian is claiming that sin does not exist for them on a spiritual level and they will say they have no sin or that they are free from the penalty of sin.

Here are two translation on 1 John 1:8 that should hopefully help you to see where I am coming from.

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."
(1 John 1:8) (New English Translation).

"If we say we ·have no sin [or have no sin nature; or are not guilty of sinning], we are ·fooling [deceiving] ourselves, and the truth is not in us."
(1 John 1:8) (Expanded Bible).​

Anyways, I hope this helps.
And may God bless you.


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[Marvin Knox]

Actually, one has to first believe in Sinless Perfectionism and suffer in the flesh in preaching the gospel so as to make that a reality.

Believing in your particular take on sanctification is not necessary for anyone to crucify their flesh.

Also, a believer can fast in their prayer so as to overcome sin, as well. For fasting is form of making the flesh to suffer.

I have no need for you to teach me about fasting.

You left out the most important part of the verse in Galatians 5:24. They that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. This does not sound like the believer who holds to the idea that they will sin on occasion for the rest of their life.

Why not?

Holding exactly to your particular doctrine is not a requirement for a person to crucify the flesh when tempted.

Are you saying you believe in Sinless Perfectionism? Please explain.

If by "perfection" you mean that my flesh will become perfect in this life - that is not what I believe. Apparently you do though.

If you mean ((like most here) that we will sin less and less and have periods of time when our sinful flesh is not manifested to any noticeable degree - then yes I do believe in that.

True believers.... yes.
As for believers in general I do not believe that this is the case...................
While this is true for the true believer, it is not the case for those who make an allowance for sin in some way by their beliefs./QUOTE]

So you believe that those who don't subscribe to your doctrine are not saved?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

John 8
21 Then Jesus said to them again, “I am going away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin. Where I go you cannot come.”

22 So the Jews said, “Will He kill Himself, because He says, ‘Where I go you cannot come’?”

23 And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

25 Then they said to Him, “Who are You?”

And Jesus said to them, “Just what I have been saying to you from the beginning. 26 I have many things to say and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I heard from Him.”

If you do not believe in Christ, then you will most assuredly die in your sins.
If you do believe in Christ, then you WILL NOT DIE IN YOUR SINS.
Your sins are forgiven you for His names sake. The Son of Man has power to forgive sins. And for believers in Christ He forgives them their sins.

If you do not acknowledge this as truth, then you do not have His words abiding in you.

Matthew 9:2
Then behold, they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you.”

Matthew 9:5
For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise and walk’?

Matthew 9:6
But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—then He said to the paralytic, “Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.”

Notice, Jesus saw their faith. and said to the paralytic
“Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you.”

Which has to be read in context to the rest of the Bible. For the Scriptures also say....

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 7:21).

"And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it." (Matthew 7:26-27).


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[Marvin Knox]

Jason0047 said:
"Not true. Believers are supposed to correct other believers by the Word of God.

"Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feeble minded, support the weak, be patient toward all men" (1 Thessalonians 5:14).

Well, God works thru believer's, too. ..."

So now you say you believe that we who disagree with your doctrine are true "believers".

I've noticed that you have changed your presentation quite a bit over time as you have been challenged on what you believe.

As I said once before - you are doing the old craw fish shuffle.

I won't flop around with you for much longer here.

One question - if a believer commits a willful sin and dies for some reason before he has confessed and repented of that sin - is he saved when he crosses over or lost?

That's a straight forward question and I want a straight forward answer.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Believing in your particular take on sanctification is not necessary for anyone to crucify their flesh.

Then what do you think crucify the affections and lusts actually means then what it says plainly in the text?

I have no need for you to teach me about fasting.

Fasting so as to overcome sin is different than fasting for other reasons.

Why not?

Holding exactly to your particular doctrine is not a requirement for a person to crucify the flesh when tempted.

Crucify the affections and lusts is what it says. This is talking about putting away sin. For what else can it be talking about?

If by "perfection" you mean that my flesh will become perfect in this life - that is not what I believe.

Most do not believe in Sinless Perfectionism. So you response that you do not believe in it does not surprise me.

Apparently you do though.

Yes, I do because that is what the Bible plainly teaches.

If you mean ((like most here) that we will sin less and less and have periods of time when our sinful flesh is not manifested to any noticeable degree - then yes I do believe in that.

And I do not find this belief any different than those who think they can sin with impunity and think they are saved. Why? For two reasons.

#1. The Message sounds the same (if it is not explained properly).
Both the believer who thinks that they can sin on occasion the rest of their life and the believer who thinks they can sin all the time with impunity both say that Christ is their righteousness and that their salvation is in nothing they do. But if you were to tell this to people, they could easily misunderstand and take it to mean that they can live however they like and still be saved (Whether you wanted that to happen or not).

#2. Making an Allowance for Sin on Some Level.
Sinning less is no different than Sinning A lot. It is still an excuse to make an allowance for sin to exist in one's life. The fact that a believer would think that it is acceptable to God to sin on occasion is not what is taught in the Holy Scriptures. Yes, believers can honestly struggle with sin. Yes, there are many believers who have to go thru the Sanctification process first before "ceasing from sin", but that is not the same belief or concept of one saying they will always remain in their sin or evil. For one seeks to overcome sin and the other does not because they do not think it is possible. But with God, all things are possible.


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[FreeGrace2]

But your belief makes an allowance for a little bit of sin. I get no indication that a little bit of sin was what Christ was thinking when he told the woman caught in the act of adultery to: "sin no more." I also get no indication that Christ was saying that the man he healed could still continue to sin a little (or on occasion), either. For Jesus told the man he healed to "sin no more, unless a worse thing come upon you." So here are the two alternatives for the man Jesus healed.

(a) Sin no more. (or):
(b) If he does sin, then a worse thing will come upon him.​

It doesn't sound to me like there was a third option given to him that would allow him to continue in sin as long as it was done on occasion and if he confessed it. That is a something that the reader has to add to the text that is not there.

You also have not provided me with a real world example to say how sinning on occasion the rest of your life is okay to God as long as you confess it, either.

Also, again, I do not believe it is anything I do that ultimately saves me. I said this before and you just ignored it. I believe Christ works in the believer once they repented of their sins and accepted Christ as their Savior and they continue to submit to Him.....

This is a continual missing of the whole point. Which is that every believer will struggle between our 2 natures.

No one has ever said that any sin is "ok with God". That is simply ridiculous. No one makes that claim.

Why haven't you actually dealt with what all of us have been saying.

All of the warning passages are about sin, and the consequences of sin. So QUIT claiming that anyone thinks it's "ok with God" to sin. It isn't ok. Ever. Can you accept that, or are you going to continue to spread your FALSE ideas about what all of us think and claim?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason0047 said:
"Not true. Believers are supposed to correct other believers by the Word of God.

"Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feeble minded, support the weak, be patient toward all men" (1 Thessalonians 5:14).

Well, God works thru believer's, too. ..."

So now you say you believe that we who disagree with your doctrine are true "believers".

I've noticed that you have changed your presentation quite a bit over time as you have been challenged on what you believe.

As I said once before - you are doing the old craw fish shuffle.

I won't flop around with you for much longer here.

One question - if a believer commits a willful sin and dies for some reason before he has confessed and repented of that sin - is he saved when he crosses over or lost?

That's a straight forward question and I want a straight forward answer.

Well, do you believe that my belief is characterized as being one who is amongst.... "true believers"? I imagine not. We both cannot be right. It is not wrong to point out false beliefs as long as it is done in love and respect. Do you believe it is wrong to correct others or to point out false beliefs?



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[Bible Highlighter]

This is a continual missing of the whole point. Which is that every believer will struggle between our 2 natures.

No one has ever said that any sin is "ok with God". That is simply ridiculous. No one makes that claim.

Why haven't you actually dealt with what all of us have been saying.

All of the warning passages are about sin, and the consequences of sin. So QUIT claiming that anyone thinks it's "ok with God" to sin. It isn't ok. Ever. Can you accept that, or are you going to continue to spread your FALSE ideas about what all of us think and claim?

You don't have to believe or make the claim that "sin is okay with God" for it to be a reality; I believe your belief in and of itself already states that for you (Whether you are able to see it or not). For you believe that a believer will always sin the rest of their life (with confessing of that sin). Granted, you believe that the believer will not sin all the time without impunity but that he will only sin on occasion. Is that correct?

However, the problem I have with this type of belief is that if one makes an allowance for sin in their belief (even if it is just a litte bit of sin), then that means God must also make an allowance that such a thing is acceptable to Him because He will save them despite their acknowledgment that they will sin the rest of their lives here on this Earth (Whether that sin be on occasion or whether that sin is done all the time).



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[Bible Highlighter]

For is a man who cheats on his wife really truly sorry over his sin with his wife if he just says he is sorry all the time to her and yet he continues to cheat on her on occasion the rest of his life? No, of course not. Why would folks think it is any different with God?


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