Logical Problems with Calvinism

[ToBeLoved]

What you haven't proven from Scripture is that believers can attain sinlessness during their life on earth. So there is no reason to accept your theories.

Even Paul admitted that he struggled with his sin nature in Romans 7. And note the present tense he used.

How quickly people move on from the topics they do not wish to prove, such as how one remains sinless.

Especially with pride, lack of humility and unclean thoughts being sin.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Grace is NOT unmerited favor. Grace is "the divine influence in the heart." See Strong's.

"He helped them much which THROUGH GRACE had believed." Acts 18:27

You prove me wrong since the word 'grace' is used in God's Word much more than once in Acts 18:27.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

As being faith-ful would seem to indicate it is about maintaining and growing in your faith. This involves trusting God (not doubting Him or His love or His existance) when someone is in deep dispair and their lives are not going right. This includes valuing what we have in Christ (forgiveness of sin, eternal life. the Holy Spirit). Following the Holy Spirit as He teaches us. Staying in prayer and growing our relationship with God and not letting it grow stagnant.

I disagree with you that faithful believers are considered by God to be those who obey God's commands.

Also, God does care more about us loving others. Humbling ourselves as servants of Christ for the cause of another or for Christ. Developing compassion.

I don't know where you get your definition of faithfulness from, have you got scripture?

Then you need to re-read 1 John 2:3-4 a little more closely.


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[ToBeLoved]

Then you need to re-read 1 John 2:3-4 a little more closely.


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I read it and the verse says nothing about how faithful is defined which is what you have given as a proof text.

So, what's your point?

Why don't you list the verse completely and then point out what your point is from the verse. I think that would be a better way to communicate your point. Then you could clearly reference the scripture in the places that prove your point.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What question are you asking me to answer?

Questions. Plural. And I are already asked them just recently. But if you can't honestly remember, then here you go:

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...with-calvinism.7914236/page-108#post-69079215


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[Bible Highlighter]

I read it and the verse says nothing about how faithful is defined which is what you have given as a proof text.

So, what's your point?

Why don't you list the verse completely and then point out what your point is from the verse. I think that would be a better way to communicate your point. Then you could clearly reference the scripture in the places that prove your point.

1 John 2:3-4,

3 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."​

This is passage is pretty straight forward in what it says (Especially in light of the rest of the Scriptures).

Verse 3 says we can have an assurance in knowing Christ if we keep His Commandments.

Verse 4 says that those who say they keep his commandments and say they know Him is a liar and the truth is not in them. Scripture says, Jesus is the way, the TRUTH, and the life (John 14:6). Jesus is the truth that needs to be in a person so as to be saved. Their keeping of God's Commandments is the proof in the pudding that Christ (God) lives within them.

Claiming to say you keep His Commands and say you know Him is equated with lying. There is no truth or salvation in lying. For Scriptures says, all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8).

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[Bible Highlighter]

Oh, and a believer cannot be out of fellowship with Christ and still be saved.

In fact, here are several verses that tell us this fact.

#1. 1 John 5:12 says He that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son does not have life. Life is associated with eternal life or salvation.

#2. John 17:3 says eternal life is in knowing the one true God, Jesus Christ. Knowing implies a fellowship. So if you don't know Jesus, then you don't have life (Salvation).

#3. Romans 8:9 says if he a man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.

#4. Psalm 73:27 says God will destroy all those who abandon Him (or go a whoring from Him).

#5. John 15:6 says if a man does not abide in Him, he is cast forth and burned.

#6. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the Light as He is in the Light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

#7. Romans 11:21-22 says if you do not continue in his goodness you will be cut off. For if God spared not the natural branches (i.e. the Jews), take heed that he can do the same to you (i.e. Gentile believers). The analogy here is that you are branch and Christ is the tree. We need to continue in Christ's righteousness or goodness, not our own righteousness or goodness, or we will be cut off because of unbelief.

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[FreeGrace2]

Brothers are believers, right?

Wrong. The use of "brothers" was used to refer to fellow Jews many times.

So they are synomous with saying the same thing.

So they aren't synonymous.

The Bible clearly describes that there are those who preach another Jesus or another gospel.

The ONLY meaning for "believer" in the Bible is those who believe in Jesus Christ for eternal life. No other way. People either believe that, or they do not. Those who do are believers. Those who don't are not believers.

But there are some who only pretended to be believers, as I have already shown from Scripture.

Not true. Sinless Perfectionism is taught in the Bible. I have already provided verses of which you did not explain from your point of view.

I've proven otherwise. And why didn't you answer my questions? This will be the 3rd time I've posted them:

Regarding sinless perfection:
1. When does one achieve it? When they believe in Christ, or some time after they believe?

2. Are they given eternal life when they believe, or some time after they believe?

3. If a believer sins, and thus loses salvation (according to you), can they ever regain their salvation?

4. If so, what must they do for that to occur?

Please answer each of these questions, for your theology just begs these questions.

Thanks."

Why did you not explain the verses that I put forth?

I don't recall any verses addressed to me. I don't follow all the posts you have with others.

What verses teach sinless perfection? But it doesn't matter, because I've proven from Romans that all sin.

A believer is given eternal life as soon as they believe (John 1:12-13).
Granted, this does not count if they are receiving another Jesus or another gospel.
A person has to accept Jesus Christ as described in the Bible.
For example: If a person receives Jesus thinking they can sin and still be saved, they are receiving a false Christ.
Another example would be if a person receives Jesus thinking that He is not God but merely a man.

Anyways, if a person genuinely accepts Christ, then they will continue to abide in Christ who is the source of their eternal life. If the believer sins, and they refuse to repent or confess of such a sin, then they will forfeit their salvation.

OK, please provide any verse that teaches that those who refuse to repent or confess sin, they forfeit their salvation. I DARE you.

It depends on the type of sin.

There are sins that lead unto death and sins that do not lead unto death (1 John 5:16-18).

If a believer speaks bad against the Holy Spirit, they can never be forgiven of such a sin.
If a believer in the future takes the mark of the beast, they will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire.
If a believer commits suicide and stays dead, they will be judged amongst the wicked.

The verse about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is very specific and cannot be committed today. It was only an issue during the time that Jesus was on earth during His ministry. Just read the whole context and it will be obvious.

There is no indication that believers will take the mark of the beast. So this opinion is just another assumption.

There are no verses about suicide forfeiting salvation.

These would be sins that would lead unto death.

However, there are other sins that lead unto death (i.e. sins that have dire after-life consequences to a believer's soul) that can be forgiven if they confess of such sin, though. Paul lists these sins several times in the New Testament. Such sins that can be forgiven are murder, hate, adultery, drunkenness, theft, and idolatry, etc. John says these types of sins will lead one to experience the second death (i.e. the Lake of Fire).

The issue of the "sin unto death" is about God's discipline for the believer who lives an unrepentant lifestyle. The discipline is physical death and subsequent loss of reward in heaven. The Bible gives us examples of such discipline: 1 Cor 10 and the Exodus generation, 1 Cor 11:30, 1 Cor 5, Acts 5. And let's not forget King Saul, whom God killed (1 Chron 10:14) but joined Samuel in Paradise after he died (2 Sam 28:19).

If a believer sins a type of sin that leads unto spiritual death (that can be forgiven), they are to confess of that sin in order to be forgiven of that sin (1 John 1:9).

There are NO verses that speak of spiritual death for any believer. Why not? Because believers have ETERNAL LIFE. Such life CANNOT be killed, or die. So for those who have been given ETERNAL LIFE, they CANNOT experience spiritual death.

Or God's Word lies. Which I absolutely reject. And that is the main problem with all who think salvation can be lost. They have to ignore or reject the FACT that ETERNAL life is just that; eternal. It goes on forever. Therefore, it cannot die.

Also, eternal life is a gift of God, according to Rom 6:23. And the gifts of God are irrevocable, according to Rom 11:29.

Your views regarding the Bible are quite confused. Amazingly so.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Grace is NOT unmerited favor. Grace is "the divine influence in the heart." See Strong's.

"He helped them much which THROUGH GRACE had believed." Acts 18:27

So you disagree with the acronym:

G God's
R Riches
A At
C Christ's
E Expense

btw, "divine influence in the heart" is an act of unmerited favor, since NO ONE earns or deserves such influence.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"What you haven't proven from Scripture is that believers can attain sinlessness during their life on earth. So there is no reason to accept your theories.

Even Paul admitted that he struggled with his sin nature in Romans 7. And note the present tense he used."

How quickly people move on from the topics they do not wish to prove, such as how one remains sinless.

How quickly people who can't defend their own opinions and assumptions ignore challenges to prove their position.

Paul spoke in the present tense in Romans 7, where he described his struggle with his own sin nature. I recommend that you read it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Oh, and a believer cannot be out of fellowship with Christ and still be saved.

In fact, here are several verses that tell us this fact.

#1. 1 John 5:12 says He that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son does not have life. Life is associated with eternal life or salvation.

#2. John 17:3 says eternal life is in knowing the one true God, Jesus Christ. Knowing implies a fellowship. So if you don't know Jesus, then you don't have life (Salvation).

#3. Romans 8:9 says if he a man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.

#4. Psalm 73:27 says God will destroy all those who abandon Him (or go a whoring from Him).

#5. John 15:6 says if a man does not abide in Him, he is cast forth and burned.

#6. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the Light as He is in the Light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

#7. Romans 11:21-22 says if you do not continue in his goodness you will be cut off. For if God spared not the natural branches (i.e. the Jews), take heed that he can do the same to you (i.e. Gentile believers). The analogy here is that you are branch and Christ is the tree. We need to continue in Christ's righteousness or goodness, not our own righteousness or goodness, or we will be cut off because of unbelief.....

Why do you think ANY of these verses are about believers who are out of fellowship?

#1 is about those who have believed. They HAVE eternal life.
#2 contains a false conclusion. Knowing does NOT imply fellowship. Married couples know each other and may be totally out of fellowship.
#3 refers to anyone who hasn't believed in Christ for salvation.
#4 the word "destroy" refers to physical death, which is what happened to King Saul. 1 Chron 10:14, 2 Sam 28:19
#5 uses an agricultural metaphor which is related to being useful for producing fruit. iow, those who don't abide in Christ (fellowship), God cannot use to produce fruit and will not be used by God for fruit production. Nothing about eternal death here at all.
#6 nothing here about loss of salvation. We know from v.9 that confession cleanses us from sin, and restores/maintains fellowship.
#7 another agricultural metaphor about either being used by God for fruit production or not being used by God. And eternal life is a gift of God per Rom 6:23, and the gifts of God are irrevocable per Rom 11:29.

 

[FreeGrace2]

For all who think they have or can achieve sinless perfection:

"If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." 1 John 1:8

This verse is not referring to any unbelievers, but obviously believers.

Therefore, any believer who says they have no sin, has deceived himself and the truth is not in him. (are you listening, Jason?)

Which is why John wrote the NEXT VERSE:

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Considering the context of ch 1 of 1 John, which is fellowship with God and Christ, confession is the solution to cleansing from sins.

But even if a believer doesn't confess sins, they lose, not relationship, which is permanent, but they lose fellowship with God and Christ.

Believers who are out of fellowship will miss out on God's blessings during their lifetime.

Fruit production will occur only when the believer is in fellowship, or "abiding in Christ".

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Wrong. The use of "brothers" was used to refer to fellow Jews many times.

While this is true, both uses of the words "false brethren" in the Bible is in reference to "false believers." (See 2 Corinthians 11:26, Galatians 2:4).

So they aren't synonymous.

The NIV translates "false brethren" as "false believers" in 2 Corinthians 11:26. it is also mentions the Jews in that same passage in addition to false believers. So there is no way it is talking about how false brethren are Jews in that verse.

The ONLY meaning for "believer" in the Bible is those who believe in Jesus Christ for eternal life. No other way. People either believe that, or they do not. Those who do are believers. Those who don't are not believers.

But there are some who only pretended to be believers, as I have already shown from Scripture.

There are pretenders, yes. No denying that. But there are also people who are false believers who actually deceived into thinking they are on God's side when they are not. This is evident if you were to read Matthew 7. These believers were surprised by Jesus' words because they were trying to convince Christ that they did wonderful works in his name. However, Christ told them to depart from him because they worked iniquity (i.e. sin).

I've proven otherwise. And why didn't you answer my questions?

Because the questions are based on faulty premises. Again, just because the Bible does not talk about a certain thing in detail for a particular truth does not negate that it is true. Hence, why the questions will go unanswered.

This will be the 3rd time I've posted them:

And you can keep posting them, it doesn't mean that you are right. Even the Bible says we know in part. So it is not like all truths are revealed in the Bible. For example: Your question is sort of like stating that just because the Scriptures do not mention a detailed account of a believer's life in spending time in their mansions (that God gave them) as a valid proof text as to saying that there will be no literal mansions in God's Kingdom. Granted, I know you probably believe there are mansions in God's Kingdom. That's not the point. The point is that the question you are asking is based on this similar faulty premise of a person thinks there needs to be a certain detailed aspect of a truth to be explained in order for that truth to be valid.

Regarding sinless perfection:
1. When does one achieve it? When they believe in Christ, or some time after they believe?

Again, atoms exist. But that does not mean that they do not exist if the Bible does not specifically mention them, though.
Also, you did not provide for me a real world example out of what you believe. If what you believe is really the truth, then you will have no problem making a real world example or parable out of it.

In addition, I have already stated my case with Scripture in regards to Sinless Perfectionism. It is up to you to refute the passages I provided (Please see the link within this post).

2. Are they given eternal life when they believe, or some time after they believe?

I already answered this in my previous post to you.

3. If a believer sins, and thus loses salvation (according to you), can they ever regain their salvation?

4. If so, what must they do for that to occur?

I have already answered these in my previous post to you.

I don't recall any verses addressed to me. I don't follow all the posts you have with others.

What verses teach sinless perfection?

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...with-calvinism.7914236/page-105#post-69073435

Also, you have to consider that it doesn't make a lick of sense for Jesus to tell the woman caught in the act of adultery to: "sin no more" if he really did not mean that. The same would apply for Jesus saying to the man he healed to: "sin no more, unless a worse thing come upon thee."

"Sin no more" ..... Means EXACTLY what it says.

But it doesn't matter, because I've proven from Romans that all sin.

Paul was referencing Psalm 14. It was a poem using metaphorical language. It was poem talking about how the heathen and how they did not generally seek after God. For interpreting Romans 3 as to refer to the faithful saint is like saying Titus 1:12 as actually saying that all Cretians are liars.

OK, please provide any verse that teaches that those who refuse to repent or confess sin, they forfeit their salvation. I DARE you.

Can you be forgiven and still be saved? Forgiveness goes with salvation, right?
That is what confessing one's sins does. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins.
Matthew 6:15 says that if we do not forgive, then we will not be forgiven by the Father.

Proverbs 28:13 says that he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.
You cannot be saved without mercy. For Titus 3:5 says we are saved by his mercy, etc.

The verse about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is very specific and cannot be committed today. It was only an issue during the time that Jesus was on earth during His ministry. Just read the whole context and it will be obvious.

Uh, no. Blasphemy is speaking bad against the Spirit. The Scriptures say this sin will not be forgiven in this life or the one to come. So this applies to all points in time of when men are on the Earth.

There is no indication that believers will take the mark of the beast. So this opinion is just another assumption.

In Revelation 14:9-10 it says "if any man" meaning this warning applies to all men (including believers).
In fact, Jesus says he that shall save his life will lose it and that shall lose his life for Christ's sake will save it.
Think for a moment. If a believer during the end times compromises on his faith and goes back to his family who took the mark of the beast, he will then take the mark in order to be with them. He will will want to love his family and provide for them. Sounds good, right? But not really. Most true believers will refuse the mark in the ends times and they will do so at the cost of their very own physical lives (but yet they will save their souls, though).

There are no verses about suicide forfeiting salvation.

Every suicide case mentioned in the Bible does not speak well of the individual's fate concerning their status with God.
Also, 1 John 3:15 says no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. A person who murders themselves is techincally a murderer. Also, Scripture says God will destroy those who defile their own temple.

The issue of the "sin unto death" is about God's discipline for the believer who lives an unrepentant lifestyle.

The discipline is physical death and subsequent loss of reward in heaven. The Bible gives us examples of such discipline: 1 Cor 10 and the Exodus generation, 1 Cor 11:30, 1 Cor 5, Acts 5. And let's not forget King Saul, whom God killed (1 Chron 10:14) but joined Samuel in Paradise after he died (2 Sam 28:19).

First of all, the Lord chastens only those he loves. God does not chasten people who want to only continue in their sin.

Second,

2 Samuel 7:12-16 says,
12 "And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:

15 But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.

16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever."

There are NO verses that speak of spiritual death for any believer. Why not? Because believers have ETERNAL LIFE. Such life CANNOT be killed, or die. So for those who have been given ETERNAL LIFE, they CANNOT experience spiritual death.

Eternal life is not a super power or a magical wish granted to you from a genie. Eternal life can only be had by abiding in Jesus Christ (1 John 5:12).

Here are some verses that you may find a little hard to twist to your advantage in regards to believers.

"Now she that is a widow indeed, and desolate, trusteth in God, and continueth in supplications and prayers night and day. But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth." (1 Timothy 5:5-6).​

She that lives in pleasure is dead while she lives. This lets us know that one can be dead spiritually while they are alive physically.
We see this even in the Parable of the Prodigal Son. The father said of his son that he was "dead" and was "alive again" two times. This of course is speaking in spiritual terms.

"But the younger widows refuse: for when they have begun to wax wanton against Christ, they will marry; Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith" (1 Timothy 5:11).​

You cannot cast off something that was never yours. You cannot cast away my book at sea I let you borrowed if I never lent it to you.

"For some are already turned aside after Satan" (1 Timothy 5:15).​

A person cannot turn aside to Satan if they are already in his grasp. I cannot depart or turn away from Houston airport unless I was in Houston airport.

Or God's Word lies. Which I absolutely reject. And that is the main problem with all who think salvation can be lost. They have to ignore or reject the FACT that ETERNAL life is just that; eternal. It goes on forever. Therefore, it cannot die.

Eternal life is a person. Not a super power. Eternal life is only possible to have if one abides in Jesus who is the source of Eternal life.

Also, eternal life is a gift of God, according to Rom 6:23.

Gifts in real life can be lost by being irresponsible with them.

And the gifts of God are irrevocable, according to Rom 11:29.

This is spoken to unsaved Israel (But it can apply to all). So the context here is not to saved believers. It does not mean Israel will be saved even if they remain in unbelief.

Your views regarding the Bible are quite confused. Amazingly so.

I believe and understand the Bible just fine. Thank you for the insult. I will rejoice in God my Savior.


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[Bible Highlighter]

For all who think they have or can achieve sinless perfection:

"If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." 1 John 1:8

This verse is not referring to any unbelievers, but obviously believers.

Therefore, any believer who says they have no sin, has deceived himself and the truth is not in him. (are you listening, Jason?)

Which is why John wrote the NEXT VERSE:

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Considering the context of ch 1 of 1 John, which is fellowship with God and Christ, confession is the solution to cleansing from sins.

But even if a believer doesn't confess sins, they lose, not relationship, which is permanent, but they lose fellowship with God and Christ.

Believers who are out of fellowship will miss out on God's blessings during their lifetime.

Fruit production will occur only when the believer is in fellowship, or "abiding in Christ".

When you read 1 John 1:8, you also have to read 1 John 2:1 where John says, "sin not." You also have to read 1 John 2:4 that says,

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

Now, let me ask you a question. If you are breaking even one of his commands, is the truth in you (according to the verse above)?

In John's 1st epistle, he was writing to the brethren in regards to those who were trying to deceive them (See 1 John 2:26). We also learn that 1 John 1:6 says the same thing that 1 John 2:4 does. It says he that says he has fellowship with him and walks in darkness lies and does not the truth. So then, we realize 1 John 1:8 is a warning to the brethren against those false believers who claim they have no sin. Sort of like the OSAS proponent today says a similar thing. Yes, they will admit they sin physically, but John is not referring to the natural world in his epistle.

In fact, the OSAS proponent today says their sin on a spiritual level does not exist for them because it has been forgiven (Past, present, and future). The OSAS proponent also says 1 John 1:9 does not apply to forgiveness of sin in relation to salvation, either. Yet, the true believer admits their sin and knows they are forgiven of sin if they confess it. The true believer does not ignore sin if it arises in their life (Because they confess it so as to be forgiven).


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[Bible Highlighter]

Why do you think ANY of these verses are about believers who are out of fellowship?

#1 is about those who have believed. They HAVE eternal life.

And a person can fall into unbelief. For believers are told this in Hebrews 4:11,

"Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief"

Hebrews 10:38 says something similar,

"Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him."

#2 contains a false conclusion. Knowing does NOT imply fellowship. Married couples know each other and may be totally out of fellowship.

But true intimacy in relationship can only be gained by knowing that person. If a believer does not come to have an intimate fellowship with Christ and know Him, then they do not have salvation. It's why Christ also says, "to depart from me. I never knew you." Also, if a marriage is unfaithful in any way, then it is no longer a marriage as God intended it to be. Marriage is about loving your spouse as Christ loves the church. Also, it is not coincidence that "knowing" is also referred to the act of physical intimacy, as well. This act is a symbol or picture of the two couples becoming one flesh (Which is a parallel of bride of Christ and God joining together in intimate fellowship).

#3 refers to anyone who hasn't believed in Christ for salvation.

No. It says any man does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him. It does not say believers are an exception to the rule here. Any man who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him. It means what it says.

#4 the word "destroy" refers to physical death, which is what happened to King Saul. 1 Chron 10:14, 2 Sam 28:19

2 Samuel 7:15 says God took away his mercy from Saul. If this was referring to only physical death, you would think God's Word would have mentioned it here at some point. So no. Those who go a whoring from God will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire. For it is why God will cast the unprofitable servant into outer darkness. It is why Christ says to a group who thinks they are believers to depart from Him because they worked iniquity (i.e. sin).

#5 uses an agricultural metaphor which is related to being useful for producing fruit. iow, those who don't abide in Christ (fellowship), God cannot use to produce fruit and will not be used by God for fruit production. Nothing about eternal death here at all.

No. In Matthew 7, Jesus says we will know false prophets (i.e. false believers) by their fruit. Fruit are deeds.

#6 nothing here about loss of salvation. We know from v.9 that confession cleanses us from sin, and restores/maintains fellowship.

No. 1 John 1:7 says we are actually cleansed of all sin by walking in the light as he is in the light. The alternative parallel that John makes to this verse is 1 John 1:6 that says, "If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth" This is the same thing that is roughly said in 1 John 2:4. For it says, "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

Scripture says, all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8).

#7 another agricultural metaphor about either being used by God for fruit production or not being used by God. And eternal life is a gift of God per Rom 6:23, and the gifts of God are irrevocable per Rom 11:29.

No. Israel was cut off because of their unbelief. The same warning is given to us, as well.

"thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou ALSO shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:22). Who was cut of before? Israel was cut off because of their unbelief. They rejected their own Messiah. So the Gentiles were then given the opportunity for salvation because Christ said go out into all the world and preach the gospel to ALL nations.

Granted, this does not mean Jews or Israelites cannot be saved. It is merely saying that God's plan of salvation now has shifted to directly draw all men unto Christ now. Whereas before in the OT, the Israelites were supposed to be a light to the rest of the world. Now, all people can come directly to Christ.


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[ToBeLoved]

1 John 2:3-4,

3 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."​

This is passage is pretty straight forward in what it says (Especially in light of the rest of the Scriptures).

Verse 3 says we can have an assurance in knowing Christ if we keep His Commandments.

Verse 4 says that those who say they keep his commandments and say they know Him is a liar and the truth is not in them. Scripture says, Jesus is the way, the TRUTH, and the life (John 14:6). Jesus is the truth that needs to be in a person so as to be saved. Their keeping of God's Commandments is the proof in the pudding that Christ (God) lives within them.

Claiming to say you keep His Commands and say you know Him is equated with lying. There is no truth or salvation in lying. For Scriptures says, all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 21:8).

...

You said that being faithful is defined by obedience and you gave 1 John 2:3-4 as proof text.

That does not prove that God determines if one is faithful solely on obedience.

Nor does this prove that to be faithful one does not sin. Salvation cannot be lost because of a lie. Please use verses WITHIN CONTEXT.

Jesus died to forgive sin. So please stop using verses out of context and confusing believers with non-believers and those who do not have Jesus as their Advocate to the Father for sin.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You said that being faithful is defined by obedience and you gave 1 John 2:3-4 as proof text.

That does not prove that God determines if one is faithful solely on obedience.

Nor does this prove that to be faithful one does not sin. Salvation cannot be lost because of a lie. Please use verses WITHIN CONTEXT.

Jesus died to forgive sin. So please stop using verses out of context and confusing believers with non-believers and those who do not have Jesus as their Advocate to the Father for sin.

Well, expressing that you disagree does not mean you are right. I have explained what the verses said and tied it in with the rest of Scripture. The challenge you have to prove to me is that it is not talking about salvation. Please take note that a person is called a liar and the truth is not in them if they do not keep his commandments and they say that they know him. Do you not know that Revelation 21:8 says all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire? Can a believer be saved without the truth in them? Is not Jesus the Truth?

Also, can you provide for me a real world example out of what you believe?

Side Note:

Also, if you were to take a note pad and right down every time John talked about life and death or light and darkness, you will see that he was talking in spiritual terms and not in a physical or natural kind of way.

In other words, I have a hard time understanding how your belief even works when reading 1 John 3:15. For it says that no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Eternal life is something that is spiritual here because the verse says it does not abide in them.

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[ToBeLoved]

Well, expressing that you disagree does not mean you are right. I have explained what the verses said and tied it in with the rest of Scripture. The challenge you have to prove to me is that it is not talking about salvation. Please take note that a person is called a liar and the truth is not in them if they do not keep his commandments and they say that they know him. Do you not know that Revelation 21:8 says all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire? Can a believer be saved without the truth in them? Is not Jesus the Truth?

Also, can you provide for me a real world example out of what you believe?

...

Why should I have to prove that your proof text about obedience is talking about salvation? It was your proof text that you said proved faithfulness is by obedience, which was never part of your proof text anyways. See post #2176. I'm not writing it out for you twice.

You make me lol

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Why should I have to prove that your proof text about obedience is talking about salvation? It was your proof text that you said proved faithfulness is by obedience, which was never part of your proof text anyways. See post #2176. I'm not writing it out for you twice.

You make me lol

Stop and think for a moment. 1 John 3:15 says no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Eternal life here is a spiritual thing because it is talking about how it does not abide in this particular individual. So spiritual death and life is the context of John's epistle.


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[ToBeLoved]

I said this:
"What you haven't proven from Scripture is that believers can attain sinlessness during their life on earth. So there is no reason to accept your theories.

Even Paul admitted that he struggled with his sin nature in Romans 7. And note the present tense he used."

How quickly people who can't defend their own opinions and assumptions ignore challenges to prove their position.

Paul spoke in the present tense in Romans 7, where he described his struggle with his own sin nature. I recommend that you read it.

I was agreeing with you.