Logical Problems with Calvinism

[Bible Highlighter]

Or, they could just be falsely claiming to believe, and not believe at all. A FAKE believer. One who isn't really a believer at all, only pretending to be one, for some other reason.
by trying to lump them in with true believers when it suits you, you are corrupting and confusing things. You are dealing with false weights and measures, so to speak.

And then you jump to a non-sequitor as proof. We are not talking about those who just have a difference of opinion about a theological point or two, although that seems to be what you want to make this about. A false believer is not a believer at all, they are falsely claiming to believe, not just believing in a wrong way or in a corrupted gospel.

No, there are many testimonies of true believers in Christ who once believed in another Jesus and actually believed that the false religion they were in was real.

Granted, this does not mean I am denying the existence that there are pretenders out there. There are many people who play church but never truly accept Jesus Christ as their Savior. Also, I imagine thru out time, there are some wealth and prosperity preachers who do not actually even believe the Bible and they are just using God and His Word as a means to be rich.

But that does not mean there are not people who have actually been deceived into believing and preaching another Jesus, though.


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[ToBeLoved]

I cannot respond openly to such a post without being banned. But if you agree with Free Grace's posts on Soteriology, then you believe in a sin and still be saved doctrine. For that is what he believes. He does not believe unrepentant sin can separate him from God. This means that a believer can commit serious sins (Like hate, theft, adultery, etc.) and not confess and forsake such sins and still enter into God's Kingdom. Folks who believe this way can play church and also live their sinful life that they enjoy. But it doesn't work like that. God wants us to be pure of heart and to be perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect. If one is living in sin, they cannot also be living a holy life. It's either one or the other.

If either you or Free Grace believe I am mistaken in my above statements here, I would be more than happy to talk it over and have you two convince me otherwise. But from what I have gathered in what he has said so far, I believe he thinks that no sin can separate Him from Christ. For example: You yourself were unsure of the fate of a person who commits suicide (Which leads me to believe that you think that a believer can potentially commit serious sins without repentance and still be saved). But we know clearly from Scripture that no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Suicide is self murder.
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You have talked about the justice of God.

God has told us in His Word that only He is the righteous and just judge, because only He knows the heart of man.

You have also spoke about how you believe that God will right any injustice on Judgement Day.

We all place our faith in God.

Jason, there must come a time when you let things go and know that God has control and God has a plan. God will make all things right according to His will and it will be righteous and just. To continue along where YOU are deciding what would be righteous and just, who should be forgiven and who will not and what certain outcomes should be from sin is NOT FAITH in God and HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

I want you to find peace. Because there is a great peace in knowing God is in control and God will right everything. You are taking this what happens when people sin in this regard in this situation, when that is not your calling. It is not your judgement because you DO NOT know the heart. That is what God ONLY knows.

Let this go. This is destroying your peace. This is destroying your ability to rest in Christ and His judgement. Do not take upon yourself this, because it is not your burden to carry, nor has Christ asked you to carry it.

You will find so much more peace. Listen and learn. You do not always need to figure out exactly what the Lord will do. Pray about it. Be at rest. Ask the Holy Spirit and the Lord to show you answers and you may have to wait, but eventuallly in His time He will show you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But there isn't another Jesus AND there isn't another gospel.

So, they are unbelievers.

Again, not sure why this is hard for people to understand. Yes, technically they are unbelievers (By comparison of the Truth). But they can be called "false believers" because they are believing in Jesus in error or in a false way.

The Bible itself says there are "false brethren." This is just another way of saying "false believer." For a brother is a believer; Or do you want to say that a brother in Christ is not a believer?


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[ToBeLoved]

No, there are many testimonies of true believers in Christ who once believed in another Jesus and actually believed that the false religion they were in was real.

Granted, this does not mean I am denying the existence that there are pretenders out there. There are many people who play church but never truly accept Jesus Christ as their Savior. Also, I imagine thru out time, there are some wealth and prosperity preachers who do not actually even believe the Bible and they are just using God and His Word as a means to be rich.

But that does not mean there are not people who have actually been deceived into believing and preaching another Jesus, though.


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If they once believed in another Jesus and come to faith then they are new believers.

I believe that Jesus does lead many who have falsely believed something to Him. But that is God and the Holy Spirit's work, besides us preaching the correct gospel.

But preaching the gospel is the Good News. Good News that Jesus Christ can and does forgive sin and reconcile sinners back to God with His blood and sacrifice for sin. The gospel is Good News.

Pretenders, whether they be rich preachers or poor folks will be dealt with by God. Only God knows their hearts. Only God can justly judge each one in righteousness. We can believe someone is right or wrong, but when it comes down to it, it is God ONLY that can deal with them and righteously judge them. This is not our domain. Our domain is to trust God and keep our faith.

Let God be God.

Let Jason be a servant of God.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Again, not sure why this is hard for people to understand. Yes, technically they are unbelievers. But they can be called "false believers" because they are believing in Jesus in error or in a false way.

The Bible itself says there are "false brethren." This is just another way of saying "false believer." For a brother is a believer; Or do you want to say that a brother in Christ is not a believer?


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False is false.

If you believe in the Word of God than you know that false is false.

Jesus said that He is the ONLY WAY TO THE FATHER.

I think that you should get into the original language and hunt down the words. Hunt down the meaning. The resources that you need are right on the internet.

False is false.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But there isn't another Jesus AND there isn't another gospel.

So, they are unbelievers.

Your argument is not with me, but it is with 2 Corinthians 11:4.
Oh, and yes. I believe there is only one real Jesus and only one gospel. 2 Corinthians 11:4 is instructions given to real believers so as to be patient and kind towards those who preach another Jesus or another gospel (i.e. those who are in a false religion).


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[Bible Highlighter]

False is false.

If you believe in the Word of God than you know that false is false.

Jesus said that He is the ONLY WAY TO THE FATHER.

I think that you should get into the original language and hunt down the words. Hunt down the meaning. The resources that you need are right on the internet.

False is false.

Your not making any sense.

2 Corinthians 11:26 says,

"In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, inperils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren"

Brothers are believers.

But if they are false brothers, then they are not true believers.

Also, the word "false" here is also used in a way that is not positive. These false brothers are not of the body of Christ.


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[Bible Highlighter]

If they once believed in another Jesus and come to faith then they are new believers.

I believe that Jesus does lead many who have falsely believed something to Him. But that is God and the Holy Spirit's work, besides us preaching the correct gospel.

But preaching the gospel is the Good News. Good News that Jesus Christ can and does forgive sin and reconcile sinners back to God with His blood and sacrifice for sin. The gospel is Good News.

Pretenders, whether they be rich preachers or poor folks will be dealt with by God. Only God knows their hearts. Only God can justly judge each one in righteousness. We can believe someone is right or wrong, but when it comes down to it, it is God ONLY that can deal with them and righteously judge them. This is not our domain. Our domain is to trust God and keep our faith.

Let God be God.

Let Jason be a servant of God.

I am not going to entertain your circular logic or your own reasoning. The BIble uses the words "false brethren"; Which is just another way of saying "false believer." False believers are not true believers.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Or, they could just be falsely claiming to believe, and not believe at all. A FAKE believer. One who isn't really a believer at all, only pretending to be one, for some other reason.
by trying to lump them in with true believers when it suits you, you are corrupting and confusing things. You are dealing with false weights and measures, so to speak.

And then you jump to a non-sequitor as proof. We are not talking about those who just have a difference of opinion about a theological point or two, although that seems to be what you want to make this about. A false believer is not a believer at all, they are falsely claiming to believe, not just believing in a wrong way or in a corrupted gospel.

I believe those who have been deceived into following another Jesus and actually believed that their religion is true do actually know deep down that they are wrong, unless God's Word convicts them of the truth. But I believe they are being deceived by the devil. Why? Because it allows for them to hold onto their sin, which can be pride, seeking to be recognized by man, etc.


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[ToBeLoved]

Your argument is not with me, but it is with 2 Corinthians 11:4.
Oh, and yes. I believe there is only one real Jesus and only one gospel. 2 Corinthians 11:4 is instructions given to real believers so as to be patient and kind towards those who preach another Jesus or another gospel (i.e. those who are in a false religion).


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I'm sorry Jason but that is not what I am reading in that verse.

New International Version
For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

New Living Translation
You happily put up with whatever anyone tells you, even if they preach a different Jesus than the one we preach, or a different kind of Spirit than the one you received, or a different kind of gospel than the one you believed.

English Standard Version
For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough.

It seems to me that it is not the believer that is putting up with this false Jesus but Paul is explaining to them that He taught them the gospel. Somethow they have been lead astray from that gospel and they seem ok with that false gospel and are believing it readily.

I do not see your point about believers putting up with those who have and believe a false gospel.

I really feel like we have to check and re-check each verse that you use. Thank God there are many of us on this thread or this would be a part-time job.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I am not going to entertain your circular logic or your own reasoning. The BIble uses the words "false brethren"; Which is just another way of saying "false believer." False believers are not true believers.


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That is exactly what I said.

You are the one talking about false believers in a sense that they may be true believers.

Flip flopping now?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Your not making any sense. Not sure how you cannot get it after my explaining it to you. I am not going to continue to explain something that is so basic. That would be like me trying to endlessly convince a "Flat Earther" that the Earth is round instead of flat. If someone believes that way, they do so because they want to see that.

You are seeing something that is not in the Bible.
The Bible uses the words "false brethren." This is just another way of saying "false believer." If you do not like that truth, then I cannot help that.
This is a truth that you are going to have to deal with between you and God.
So you will have my prayers.
For I am wishing nothing but good things to you in Christ Jesus.


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[ToBeLoved]

This was the topic Jason. I do not know why you are changing the topic, nor why you choose to try to misrepresent. But let's get back on topic.

Jason:

Jason0047 said: ↑
Your argument is not with me, but it is with 2 Corinthians 11:4.
Oh, and yes. I believe there is only one real Jesus and only one gospel. 2 Corinthians 11:4 is instructions given to real believers so as to be patient and kind towards those who preach another Jesus or another gospel (i.e. those who are in a false religion).​

ToBeLoved:

I'm sorry Jason but that is not what I am reading in that verse.

New International Version
For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

New Living Translation
You happily put up with whatever anyone tells you, even if they preach a different Jesus than the one we preach, or a different kind of Spirit than the one you received, or a different kind of gospel than the one you believed.

English Standard Version
For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough.

It seems to me that it is not the believer that is putting up with this false Jesus but Paul is explaining to them that He taught them the gospel. Somethow they have been lead astray from that gospel and they seem ok with that false gospel and are believing it readily.

I do not see your point about believers putting up with those who have and believe a false gospel.

I really feel like we have to check and re-check each verse that you use. Thank God there are many of us on this thread or this would be a part-time job.



​

So let's get back on topic. What is your response?

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[Bible Highlighter]

Again, you are not making any sense.
I am also not responding because I already provided my case that is all too clear to see. You will have my prayers, though.


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[Albion]

There's little reason to be on a discussion board, though, if you have no powers of persuasion.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There's little reason to be on a discussion board, though, if you have no powers of persuasion.

Well, the truth of the matter is there are people who do not want to see something no matter how you explain it. I have explained my point several times pretty clearly and there is nothing left to say. For there comes a point, where words cannot help them (if they are honestly not wanting to see something). For I have explained it to the best of my ability and God is talking to my heart to stop now. I believe prayer is the answer at this point currently.


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[ToBeLoved]

Again, you are not making any sense.
I am also not responding because I already provided my case that is all too clear to see. You will have my prayers, though.


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Then I remain convinced as most others (see post #2104) have said on this thread that what you present is not the gospel.

Take the easy way out Jason so you can go off on another thread. Now all of a sudden you are stopping the discussion after everyone disagrees with you. You are no longer going to argue your points because they all have been exposed to be false. It is a shame that you will not learn from this, but choose to walk away. We all come here and learn, Jason.

Don't let your pride get in the way of learning to become a better servant of Jesus Christ.

 

[Albion]

Well, the truth of the matter is there are people who do not want to see something no matter how you explain it.

That's true, but I was seeing a lot of "That's what the Bible says. Too bad if you don't read it the way I do." (paraphrased)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

My ending the dicussion with you on this particular verse does not equate with continuing the discussion with others on this thread topic. I choose not to discuss this with you because I believe nothing else I say will convince you. I have already made my case. It stands as it is. There is nothing left to say at this point. You are seeing what you want to see. It does not matter if we continue to talk for another 1000 pages.


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[Bible Highlighter]

That's true, but I was seeing a lot of "That's what the Bible says. Too bad if you don't read it the way I do." (paraphrased)

That would be you putting words into my mouth that is not true (Which is not nice). I can lead a horse to water, but I cannot force them to drink it. I merely plant the seeds of God's Word and it is God who gives the increase. I cannot force someone to see something. It doesn't work like that. But I can pray for them.


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