Logical Problems with Calvinism

[Bible Highlighter]

To say that your saved then you commit a sin and you're doomed to hell, well, that is a very mechanistic Satanic type of God being taught there versus the God of family relationships where we are adopted into the beloved, made acceptable in the beloved.

It is a heresy to teach against the NEW BIRTH.
We do not get born again over and over again every time after we sin and repent.
If that was true, Christ and the apostles would have taught that.

We are born again to enter the kingdom of God. Then we are in His family, and family looks out for each other and should love each other.
He loves us first is why we love Him. And we love whoever is born of Him. There is no teaching that says we after being born of God are unborn of God. That which is born of God overcomes the world, and who is he that overcomes the world? He who believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God overcomes the world because of their faith.

A believer who sins confesses their sin and it says is cleansed of all unrighteousness. That is what believers do, when they sin, they confess their sin to God and God being their Father, forgives them. That is part of the discipline God works in our life, else we are not belonging to Him. Since we do belong to Him as His purchased possession, then God engineers the situations in our life that we need to experience, He DOES NOT leave us as orphans, Christ is the good shepherd, and He does discipline the sheep. What kind of father would let the children run wild and not arrange the circumstances to bring them back to Himself? Does not the parable of the prodigal son teach us that? If God owns you, then God will not allow you to wander without Him going after you. The prodigal returns and is not lost forever to the Father. The sheep return to the Shepherd. The Shepherd goes after His lost sheep. Their is a very deep meaning to Christ coming to seek and to save that which was lost, the lost are His lost sheep that He foreknew, that he predestined to be conformed to His own self.

25 For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.

Do you believe it is possible for a believer to lie, or to have a sinful thought about a woman, or commit suicide and then die without confessing that sin and still be saved?

Please take note that there are people who have committed suicide and have been fortunate enough to come back to life so as to confess of such a sin.


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[ToBeLoved]

The problem maybe is that most of us our not new Christians who do not know the Word of God.

Some only like to "preach" to those who see Bible verses and take it that the author knows more than they do and take all that the one who "preaches" says and believes that.

I can understand preaching to those who need to learn, but we have a RESPONSIBILITY to God and those who we teach to provide them with the Word of God in context. In the correct context so they learn and lay a foundation to their faith. Some (like myself) take this very seriously as a servant of God. Some apparently do not and would just as soon keep doing what they are doing even after it has been shown over and over to be incorrect.

This is sinful. This is irresponsible.

We are to care for, uplift and be mentors to those new in the faith. That is our calling as mature believers.

I am upset, very upset that some choose to continue to do as they have done in the past with no repsonsiblity for the platform that God gives us (including Christian Forums) that gives us the platform to teach others as well as converse. To knowingly keep providing what is the wrong context and incorrect teaching because one does not choose to learn, It is irresponsible.

Let US represent OUR LORD and GOD in all His Glory, responsibly and justly. Rightly dividing His Word in truth. Let us teach as though God Himself is watching and let us show love to the new babes in Christ that are seeking guidance and knowledge in our Lord, Jesus Christ. The Word tells us that when much has been given by God, much is expected. That to those who wisely use what they have been given, more will be given to them.

May we all wisely use the platform that God has given us to POSITIVELY help others, not to lead others astray. Amen.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The problem maybe is that most of us our not new Christians who do not know the Word of God.

Some only like to "preach" to those who see Bible verses and take it that the author knows more than they do and take all that the one who "preaches" says and believes that.

I can understand preaching to those who need to learn, but we have a RESPONSIBILITY to God and those who we teach to provide them with the Word of God in context. In the correct context so they learn and lay a foundation to their faith. Some (like myself) take this very seriously as a servant of God. Some apparently do not and would just as soon keep doing what they are doing even after it has been shown over and over to be incorrect.

This is sinful. This is irresponsible.

We are to care for, uplift and be mentors to those new in the faith. That is our calling as mature believers.

I am upset, very upset that some choose to continue to do as they have done in the past with no repsonsiblity for the platform that God gives us (including Christian Forums) that gives us the platform to teach others as well as converse. It is irresponsible.

Yet, the Bible says,

"And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city." (Matthew 10:14-15).


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[Albion]

That would be you putting words into my mouth that is not true (Which is not nice). I can lead a horse to water, but I cannot force them to drink it. I merely plant the seeds of God's Word and it is God who gives the increase. I cannot force someone to see something. It doesn't work like that. But I can pray for them.


...

and I can't force you to acknowledge the truth of what I was pointing out.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

and I can't force you to acknowledge the truth of what I was pointing out.

I believe you insulted me wrongfully (i.e. you accused me of something that is not true) without you being aware that you did so.
That is a truth I care not to know.

For by our words we will be either justified or condemned.


....

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yet, the Bible says,

"And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city." (Matthew 10:14-15).


....

However, most of us are mature Christians, not those who choose not to hear. Most of us are here to learn and discuss. That verse is talking about those who do not believe or open their hearts to the Lord.

The problem is that we are believers. And not just believers in the sense of faith, but also believers who discuss and seek to improve our own knowledge of God's Word as well as share with others.

Paul, wrote many letters back to the churches because Paul knew that there would come a 'different gospel' because those who believed that Jesus was not the Messiah would try to convert the new believers in Christ back to the Law. Back to the Old Covenant instead of the New Covenant that Jesus Christ died to give us.

Paul knew that false leaders would come into the church to lead the sheep (or try to lead the sheep) away from the true gospel.

Your verse is used in this case out of context, for we are believers and we are very open to the Word of God.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

However, most of us are mature Christians, not those who choose not to hear. Most of us are here to learn and discuss. That verse is talking about those who do not believe or open their hearts to the Lord.

The problem is that we are believers. And not just believers in the sense of faith, but also believers who discuss and seek to improve our own knowledge of God's Word as well as share with others.

Paul, wrote many letters back to the churches because Paul knew that there would come a 'different gospel' because those who believed that Jesus was not the Messiah would try to convert the new believers in Christ back to the Law. Back to the Old Covenant instead of the New Covenant that Jesus Christ died to give us.

Paul knew that false leaders would come into the church to lead the sheep (or try to lead the sheep) away from the true gospel.

Your verse is used in this case out of context, for we are believers and we are very open to the Word of God.

I believe 2 Corinthians 11:4 is talking about false believers.
Those who believe in another Jesus or another gospel are not true believers and are not saved.

What do you think 2 Corinthians 11:4 is talking about?
Do you think those who believe in another Jesus or another gospel are saved?

Side Note:
Oh, and not all professing believers are open to God's Word, too.
In Matthew 7, there will be certain believers who will be surprised by what Jesus will say to them.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Please take note that I am merely expressing my belief on 2 Corinthians 11:4.
I am standing behind God's Word in what it says and I should not be ashamed in what it says (no matter the cost).
For I am here on this Earth to fear God and not men.
But it is my prayer that folks here will not take it the wrong way.
For my intention is not to harm anyone, but merely to lead them to the light of the truth in God's Word in love and in truth.

Anyways, may God bless you all.
And may His love shine upon you, too.


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[FreeGrace2]

I am actually trying to wrap my head around why you find this so difficult to understand.

False propehts, false brethren, ARE false believers.

No, they aren't. People who claim to be believers but do not believe are called false brethren, as I showed from Scripture. Those familiar with Scripture completely understand my point.

Concerning true believers, in the body of Christ there are apostles, prophets, and teachers. True brethren or brothers in the body of Christ are all believers.

Sure. All believers are…believers.

Again, the Bible says there are those who preach in another Jesus or another gospel (2 Corinthians 11:4). They believe in Jesus, and preach another Jesus, but they do so in error.

Yes, all false doctrine is error. Just as your false doctrine of sinless perfection.

However, why did you not bother to respond to the rest of my post:

"I would like some clarification of your theology of sinless perfection.

When does one achieve it? When they believe in Christ, or some time after they believe?

Are they given eternal life when they believe, or some time after they believe?

If a believer sins, and thus loses salvation (according to you), can they ever regain their salvation?

If so, what must they do for that to occur?

Please answer each of these questions, for your theology just begs these questions.

Thanks."

 

[FreeGrace2]

I cannot respond openly to such a post without being banned. But if you agree with Free Grace's posts on Soteriology, then you believe in a sin and still be saved doctrine. For that is what he believes.

What you haven't proven from Scripture is that believers can attain sinlessness during their life on earth. So there is no reason to accept your theories.

Even Paul admitted that he struggled with his sin nature in Romans 7. And note the present tense he used.

He does not believe unrepentant sin can separate him from God.

I did explain the Biblical understanding of what is separated between the believer and God; fellowship, not relationship. And you didn't bother to refute it.

This means that a believer can commit serious sins (Like hate, theft, adultery, etc.) and not confess and forsake such sins and still enter into God's Kingdom.

I proved that from 1 Thess 5:4-11. Specifically v.10. "so whether we are awake or sleep, we will live together with Him".

Folks who believe this way can play church and also live their sinful life that they enjoy. But it doesn't work like that. God wants us to be pure of heart and to be perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect. If one is living in sin, they cannot also be living a holy life. It's either one or the other.

Please stop misrepresenting my view. I have been very clear about the severity of God's discipline for disobedient and unfaithful children.

If either you or Free Grace believe I am mistaken in my above statements here, I would be more than happy to talk it over and have you two convince me otherwise.

That's just what I'm doing now. Correcting your mistakes.

But from what I have gathered in what he has said so far, I believe he thinks that no sin can separate Him from Christ.

Not from relationship with Christ. That is permanent.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No, they aren't. People who claim to be believers but do not believe are called false brethren, as I showed from Scripture. Those familiar with Scripture completely understand my point.

Brothers are believers, right?
So they are synomous with saying the same thing.

Sure. All believers are…believers.

The Bible clearly describes that there are those who preach another Jesus or another gospel. This would mean they are not of the true body of believers in Jesus Christ. However, that does not mean they do not have a belief in Jesus. There belief in Jesus is simply in error or it is false.

Yes, all false doctrine is error. Just as your false doctrine of sinless perfection.

Not true. Sinless Perfectionism is taught in the Bible. I have already provided verses of which you did not explain from your point of view.

However, why did you not bother to respond to the rest of my post:

"I would like some clarification of your theology of sinless perfection.

Why did you not explain the verses that I put forth?

When does one achieve it?
When they believe in Christ, or some time after they believe?

The Bible does not talk specifically about atoms. That does not mean atoms do not exist.
So if the Bible does not mention an exact time line of when a believer achieves perfection in Christ, it does not negate such a truth.
All we know is that some were able to achieve such a thing because 1 Peter 4:1 and Galatians 5:24 says that this was a reality for some believers.

Are they given eternal life when they believe, or some time after they believe?

A believer is given eternal life as soon as they believe (John 1:12-13).
Granted, this does not count if they are receiving another Jesus or another gospel.
A person has to accept Jesus Christ as described in the Bible.
For example: If a person receives Jesus thinking they can sin and still be saved, they are receiving a false Christ.
Another example would be if a person receives Jesus thinking that He is not God but merely a man.

Anyways, if a person genuinely accepts Christ, then they will continue to abide in Christ who is the source of their eternal life. If the believer sins, and they refuse to repent or confess of such a sin, then they will forfeit their salvation.

If a believer sins, and thus loses salvation (according to you), can they ever regain their salvation?

It depends on the type of sin.

There are sins that lead unto death and sins that do not lead unto death (1 John 5:16-18).

If a believer speaks bad against the Holy Spirit, they can never be forgiven of such a sin.
If a believer in the future takes the mark of the beast, they will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire.
If a believer commits suicide and stays dead, they will be judged amongst the wicked.

These would be sins that would lead unto death.

However, there are other sins that lead unto death (i.e. sins that have dire after-life consequences to a believer's soul) that can be forgiven if they confess of such sin, though. Paul lists these sins several times in the New Testament. Such sins that can be forgiven are murder, hate, adultery, drunkenness, theft, and idolatry, etc. John says these types of sins will lead one to experience the second death (i.e. the Lake of Fire).

Sins that do not lead unto death would be disobeying the command to be baptized. For Peter essentially says that baptism is not done for salvation. He says it is not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh (1 Peter 3:21). Sins that do not lead unto death would be minor flaws in our character or hidden or secret faults (Psalm 19:12). For example: Going over the speed limit a little is not a sin that would lead unto spiritual death. Not taking out the trash last week like you were supposed to is not a sin that leads unto death.

If so, what must they do for that to occur?

Please answer each of these questions, for your theology just begs these questions.

Thanks."

If a believer sins a type of sin that leads unto spiritual death (that can be forgiven), they are to confess of that sin in order to be forgiven of that sin (1 John 1:9). This is done with the intention that they will forsake such a sin (1 John 1:7). Also see Proverbs 28:13. Please take note that I do not believe God leaves a person in every case immediately after they sin. I believe God first convicts a person of their sin first and gets them to confess of their sin with a Godly sorrow. But if a believer refuses to confess of their sin, then they will fall danger to God leaving them as God had left King Saul.

Granted, this does not mean that all believers who have backslidden into a life of sin cannot be forgiven like Saul, though. James 5:19-20 talks about how faithful believer can bring a believer who has fallen into a life of sin back to the faith to the saving of their soul by getting them to repent of their sinful ways.


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[ToBeLoved]

I believe 2 Corinthians 11:4 is talking about false believers.
Those who believe in another Jesus or another gospel are not true believers and are not saved.

What do you think 2 Corinthians 11:4 is talking about?
Do you think those who believe in another Jesus or another gospel are saved?

Side Note:
Oh, and not all professing believers are open to God's Word, too.
In Matthew 7, there will be certain believers who will be surprised by what Jesus will say to them.


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Again you are changing the topic because you do not want to respond or did not realize that I wanted a response.

So I will reassemble our conversation for you again (below).

Jason (Post #2143):

Jason0047 said: ↑
Yet, the Bible says,

"And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city." (Matthew 10:14-15).

ToBeLoved (Post #2146):

ToBeLoved said: ↑
However, most of us are mature Christians, not those who choose not to hear. Most of us are here to learn and discuss. That verse is talking about those who do not believe or open their hearts to the Lord.

The problem is that we are believers. And not just believers in the sense of faith, but also believers who discuss and seek to improve our own knowledge of God's Word as well as share with others.

Paul, wrote many letters back to the churches because Paul knew that there would come a 'different gospel' because those who believed that Jesus was not the Messiah would try to convert the new believers in Christ back to the Law. Back to the Old Covenant instead of the New Covenant that Jesus Christ died to give us.

Paul knew that false leaders would come into the church to lead the sheep (or try to lead the sheep) away from the true gospel.

Your verse is used in this case out of context, for we are believers and we are very open to the Word of God.



Your response (original at top of post) has no bearing on what we were discussing. Please stay on topic and answer my question as it relates to the conversation we have been having.

.

 

[nobdysfool]

Your not making any sense.

2 Corinthians 11:26 says,

"In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, inperils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren"

Brothers are believers.

But if they are false brothers, then they are not true believers.

Also, the word "false" here is also used in a way that is not positive. These false brothers are not of the body of Christ.


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If they are not of the Body of Christ, they are UNBELIEVERS! You're trying way too hard to have it both ways.

Accept the fact that false brethren, false believers, are in reality UNBELIEVERS!

As such they are not real brethren. Paul may have been calling them false brethren to avoid pronouncing judgment on them, but words mean things, and false means fake, not real, and true means genuine, actual, and real.

all your dodging and twisting is showing just how wrong your doctrine is. Sinless perfection is a falsehood, and something that is not taught in scripture.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Again you are changing the topic because you do not want to respond or did not realize that I wanted a response.

So I will reassemble our conversation for you again (below).

Jason (Post #2143):

Jason0047 said: ↑
Yet, the Bible says,

"And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city." (Matthew 10:14-15).

ToBeLoved (Post #2146):

ToBeLoved said: ↑
However, most of us are mature Christians, not those who choose not to hear. Most of us are here to learn and discuss. That verse is talking about those who do not believe or open their hearts to the Lord.

The problem is that we are believers. And not just believers in the sense of faith, but also believers who discuss and seek to improve our own knowledge of God's Word as well as share with others.

Paul, wrote many letters back to the churches because Paul knew that there would come a 'different gospel' because those who believed that Jesus was not the Messiah would try to convert the new believers in Christ back to the Law. Back to the Old Covenant instead of the New Covenant that Jesus Christ died to give us.

Paul knew that false leaders would come into the church to lead the sheep (or try to lead the sheep) away from the true gospel.

Your verse is used in this case out of context, for we are believers and we are very open to the Word of God.



Your response (original at top of post) has no bearing on what we were discussing. Please stay on topic and answer my question as it relates to the conversation we have been having.

.

I have no idea what you are talking about.
You have to understand that your words are not what I see in the Bible.
Your words are also foggy to me. They are not clear.
I asked my questions to help give me clarity on where you are coming from.
If you do not care to answer my questions so as to help me to believe where you are coming from, then this conversation is not going to go anywhere.

Anyways, I say this not to wound you, but I say this in love and in truth.
In any event, may God bless you.
And please be well.

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[Bible Highlighter]

If they are not of the Body of Christ, they are UNBELIEVERS! You're trying way too hard to have it both ways.

Accept the fact that false brethren, false believers, are in reality UNBELIEVERS!

As such they are not real brethren. Paul may have been calling them false brethren to avoid pronouncing judgment on them, but words mean things, and false means fake, not real, and true means genuine, actual, and real.

all your dodging and twisting is showing just how wrong your doctrine is. Sinless perfection is a falsehood, and something that is not taught in scripture.

Yes, very good. They are unbelievers. But the BIble also uses words to describe them as "false brethren", too. Meaning, they can appear as believers but they are actually false believers or false brethren. They are wolves in sheep's clothing.


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[nobdysfool]

Yes, very good. They are unbelievers. But the BIble also uses words to describe them as "false brethren", too. Meaning, they can appear as believers but they are actually false believers or false brethren. They are wolves in sheep's clothing.


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So why do you continue to treat them as though they were not? Why do you take verses that are clearly aimed at false believers, i.e. unbelievers, and apply them to real believers? that is precisely what you're doing, and you seem to not want to admit it, because it takes much of the support away from your false doctrine

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So why do you continue to treat them as though they were not? Why do you take verses that are clearly aimed at false believers, i.e. unbelievers, and apply them to real believers? that is precisely what you're doing, and you seem to not want to admit it, because it takes much of the support away from your false doctrine

Nowhere did I ever say that the Bible condemns faithful believers. Faithful believers are those who obey God's Commands and teach others to do the same. Some folks here have been essentially saying they can be unfaithful and still be in God's good graces. However, please read carefully 1 John 2:3-4 again (in order to see who are true believers and false believers).


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[ToBeLoved]

I have no idea what you are talking about.
You have to understand that your words are not what I see in the Bible.
Your words are also foggy to me. They are not clear.
I asked my questions to help give me clarity on where you are coming from.
If you do not care to answer my questions so as to help me to believe where you are coming from, then this conversation is not going to go anywhere.

Anyways, I say this not to wound you, but I say this in love and in truth.
In any event, may God bless you.
And please be well.

....

What question are you asking me to answer?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Nowhere did I ever say that the Bible condemns faithful believers. Faithful believers are those who obey God's Commands and teach others to do the same. Some folks here have been essentially saying they can be unfaithful and still be in God's good graces. However, please read carefully 1 John 2:3-4 again (in order to see who are true believers and false believers).


....

As being faith-ful would seem to indicate it is about maintaining and growing in your faith. This involves trusting God (not doubting Him or His love or His existance) when someone is in deep dispair and their lives are not going right. This includes valuing what we have in Christ (forgiveness of sin, eternal life. the Holy Spirit). Following the Holy Spirit as He teaches us. Staying in prayer and growing our relationship with God and not letting it grow stagnant.

I disagree with you that faithful believers are considered by God to be those who obey God's commands.

Also, God does care more about us loving others. Humbling ourselves as servants of Christ for the cause of another or for Christ. Developing compassion.

I don't know where you get your definition of faithfulness from, have you got scripture?

 

[Jack Terrence]

How in the world is faith acquired through grace?

Grace is that Christ died for all of us to be reconciled back to God and asks for nothing but our faith in Him.

Grace is the unmerited favor that Christ died for us...

Grace is NOT unmerited favor. Grace is "the divine influence in the heart." See Strong's.

"He helped them much which THROUGH GRACE had believed." Acts 18:27